Leave existing ceiling rose within new metal light fitting??

[Mark Huddleston]

I'm your average DIYer and after advice about replacing a pendant light with a new flush metal fitting. I can fix the new light to the ceiling and the existing rose sits within the void of the new fitting without any clearance issues. Is it OK to leave it in place and wire the new fitting into the rose replacing the pendant's connections? I've had mixed replies from other forums. If I can't do this can I use wago connectors or choc blocs and leave them in the fitting or does it all have to go up into the loft space within a junction box? I'd much rather just connect to the rose and leave it in situ and I can still get a good fixing for the bracket. Thanks in advance.

 

[DPG]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say I can't see a problem with it. Feel free to hit the dumb button (not you Murdoch if you're reading this when you're back!)

I'm surprised there is room for it though.

 

[davesparks]

If there is clearance for it to fit over the existing rose then I would say there is no issue, in fact its a better way for a DIYer to do this than disconnect everything and risk reconnecting it incorrectly.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Brilliant thanks. The void in the new light is quite deep and I was pleased as it saves me taking the rose off.
Also just to check....on another forum someone had said it was ok to do this as long as put the cap back on the rose. I definitely can’t do this as there is no room for that. So it’s still ok to wire it up uncapped? Sorry I should have said this in my original post.

 

[davesparks]

Personally I see no problem with the cap not being put on as it will be enclosed by the new fitting, but wait and see what other opinions get posted here.

 

[DPG]

I'm with davesparks. It needs a tool to get to it so there is no danger.

 

[Andy78]

I am also surprised there is enough room for the base and cables, but see no issue using the base without the original cover if the new fitting covers it adequately.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

I'm with davesparks. It needs a tool to get to it so there is no danger.

I've got you. So it's more about how accessible or exposed it is that is important? I was thinking more about heat from the light but I suppose when you think about it there are wires and a terminal block on the light fitting anyway so it must be safe.
One more quickie with regards to the flex used to connect between the rose and the fitting. I have some 1.25mm 13 amp cable from a previous project. Is this OK to use? Can I strip the cables out of the outer sheath and use them individually or do just strip back at the connections?

 

[telectrix]

agree with above, but ensure that the earth terminal on the new light is connected to the earth terminal in the existing rose.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Thanks and presumably the earth terminal on the rose will accommodate the extra earth cable from the flex as in two earth wires into one hole.

 

[DPG]

It should do but I wouldn't use the 1.25mm flex to be honest.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

It should do but I wouldn't use the 1.25mm flex to be honest.

OK so could someone please tell me what I am best to use?

 

[telectrix]

ideally you'd use some 1.5mm singles, but as you have to buy 100m of each, that would be economically daft. get a short length of 1.5mm flex and strip the outer sheath off.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

ideally you'd use some 1.5mm singles, but as you have to buy 100m of each, that would be economically daft. get a short length of 1.5mm flex and strip the outer sheath off.

I’ve got some 1.5mm cable in the garage too. Thanks for that. It looks I’ll finally get the wife off my back and get this bedroom decorated

 

[Strima]

I would leave the rose cover in the top of the fitting if possible as in the future you may wish to swap back and the covers aren't interchangeable.

 

[littlespark]

0.5 or 0.75mm flex will be fine. Strip the outer sheath off and just have the coloured cores.
Just make sure you have enough space and the cables don't get squashed or otherwise pressing against the metal fitting once its up.

Your new fitting will be a little off centre compared with the existing rose as you need the metal bracket screwed up first.

And I would advise you isolate the circuit at the consumer unit. The 2 reds in the centre terminals of the rose will be live even if the light switch is off.

Personally, I would remove the rose and use Wago connectors. You would need to make sure you connected it back up properly. You're going to have 3 earth cores coming out the ceiling plus the new bit of flex.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

0.5 or 0.75mm flex will be fine. Strip the outer sheath off and just have the coloured cores.
Just make sure you have enough space and the cables don't get squashed or otherwise pressing against the metal fitting once its up.

Your new fitting will be a little off centre compared with the existing rose as you need the metal bracket screwed up first.

And I would advise you isolate the circuit at the consumer unit. The 2 reds in the centre terminals of the rose will be live even if the light switch is off.

Personally, I would remove the rose and use Wago connectors. You would need to make sure you connected it back up properly. You're going to have 3 earth cores coming out the ceiling plus the new bit of flex.

All noted thank you. I plan to take the pendant down and I will then be able to gauge if I have enough room for the wires. When I started looking at this I liked the look of those Wago connectors. If I don’t have enough room to leave the rose and I was forced to rethink could I use the Wagos and have them left in the inside of the fitting? I’m under the impression that if I push them up into the loft space I need them to be in an enclosure. I don’t really want the extra work of doing that but I want to be safe more than anything.

 

[littlespark]

Well, the good thing with Wago's are that they are individual, so they can be position in the fitting away from each other. You wont need to use a joint box in the ceiling.
You can get ones that are designed for solid core cable on one side and a flex on the other.

 

[Midwest]

I've had the mis-fortune to have to have fitted some of those luminaires or similar. I left the ceiling rose in place, cap on and cap off (cap off is much easier), using some flex to connect between ceiling rose & luminaire.

Some have convenient holes in the luminaire fixing bar, to locate underneath the ceiling rose, to make use of the suitable fixing into the above joist etc. If they haven't, offer it up & make some. It will also need fixing near the ends also.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Well, the good thing with Wago's are that they are individual, so they can be position in the fitting away from each other. You wont need to use a joint box in the ceiling.
You can get ones that are designed for solid core cable on one side and a flex on the other.

I was looking at the 222 ones with the levers as I’d watched a YouTube video of someone using them to connect a light fitting. I have also seen the ones designated for lighting circuits but wasn’t sure if they could accommodate multiple solid core cables into the one hole as they are push fit on that side aren’t they? I couldn’t find any info on that online.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

I've had the mis-fortune to have to have fitted some of those luminaires or similar. I left the ceiling rose in place, cap on and cap off (cap off is much easier), using some flex to connect between ceiling rose & luminaire.

Some have convenient holes in the luminaire fixing bar, to locate underneath the ceiling rose, to make use of the suitable fixing into the above joist etc. If they haven't, offer it up & make some. It will also need fixing near the ends also.

Yeah I’ve been up in the loft and I can definitely get a good fixing into the timber alongside the rose.

 

[littlespark]

The lever ones are one conductor per hole.
Look at the 224 type

 

[Mark Huddleston]

The lever ones are one conductor per hole.
Look at the 224 type

Yeah I’d seen these ones too. What I couldn’t find online is video or instructions showing multiple cables inserted. For examples the 3 live wires that form the loop....how do they insert into a 224? I’ve seen them put into a three lever 222 (one cable in each hole) but on the 224 there is only one hole on the solid core push side. I hope I’m making sense here and not sounding too daft.

 

[telectrix]

you'd use the 3 port wago 221's for the 3 perm L's, a 5port 221 gor the earths, a 3 port for N's and a 2 port for switch L. the 221's are slimmer than the 222's.and will accept solid cable or flex. strip at 12mm , ensure the ends of the cables are dead straight, fit and tug test. and only 1 conductor per hole.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

you'd use the 3 port wago 221's for the 3 perm L's, a 5port 221 gor the earths, a 3 port for N's and a 2 port for switch L. the 221's are slimmer than the 222's.and will accept solid cable or flex. strip at 12mm , ensure the ends of the cables are dead straight, fit and tug test. and only 1 conductor per hole.

Thanks for that. The only thing is you can only seem to but these in bulk and not individually. I suppose it’s all hypothetical if I can use the existing rose but it’s all good information to have. Thanks

 

[telectrix]

you can buy a starter pack. what you don't use will always come in handy, even on some car jobs.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wago-60281...31RZEMMJPXB&psc=1&refRID=VX18BYVMQ31RZEMMJPXB

 

[Mark Huddleston]

you can buy a starter pack. what you don't use will always come in handy, even on some car jobs.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wago-60281...31RZEMMJPXB&psc=1&refRID=VX18BYVMQ31RZEMMJPXB

Ha!! That’s half the price of the light!!!

 

[Andy78]

Ha!! That’s half the price of the light!!!

It's also cheaper than getting me to put the light up.
I would have provided the wagos in with the price though along with any additional cable needed and testing the earth connection is viable for the metal fitting you are putting up. And it would have been up by now

 

[Midwest]

Just go with the ceiling rose thing, why try to complicate stuff.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Just go with the ceiling rose thing, why try to complicate stuff.

Yip I think so. If I need to go to plan Wago I will

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. You’ve all been very helpful. It’s genuinely nice to find a forum where professionals are so keen to help your average bloke on the street

 

[DPG]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. You’ve all been very helpful. It’s genuinely nice to find a forum where professionals are so keen to help your average bloke on the street

Depends on the day. We can be quite offensive sometimes.

 

[MJPD29]

Havnt read all the comments but can't see any issues with it. L,n,e from ceiling rose to new fitting and you'll be good

 

[Mark Huddleston]

All went well today and just got to hang about a million little glass pieces off it. I had a slight crisis of confidence when I finally screwed the fitting onto the bracket. The single wires had to be slightly longer than I would have liked just as they were dead fiddly. I remember someone saying they shouldn’t be pressing against the metal fitting. I wouldn’t have said they were pressing on it but more like resting on it. So I stripped some outer sheath of another part of flex and pushed the wires into a short section of outer sleeve where they rest on the metal. I then wrapped all this section in electrical tape. I was just a bit paranoid that the wires may overheat. Does this sound OK?

 

[telectrix]

if it's still on the ceiling when you get up tomorrow, good job..

 

[Mark Huddleston]

if it's still on the ceiling when you get up tomorrow, good job..

I went into the loft and fitted a noggin between the two joists for the bracket to screw into. It’s rock solid.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Hi. Could someone just please clarify this for me. Do the single wires going from the fitting to the rose need insulating with tape or a section of it still with the outer sheath on as I can’t avoid them touching the inside of the metal fitting?? To be honest the wires forming the loop between the 3 LED bulbs touch the metal....am I being paranoid or just safety conscious??

 

[telectrix]

it's no problem.the single insulation suffices. additional sheathing would be for mechanical protection, but that;s already provided by the metal enclosure of the fitting.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

it's no problem.the single insulation suffices. additional sheathing would be for mechanical protection, but that;s already provided by the metal enclosure of the fitting.

Excellent thanks.

 

[Jjc]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say I can't see a problem with it. Feel free to hit the dumb button (not you Murdoch if you're reading this when you're back!)

I'm surprised there is room for it though.

If the existing rose has its cover screwed back on and the the new fitting is fed with flexible cable from the rose then it is perfectly acceptable.

 

[DPG]

If the existing rose has its cover screwed back on and the the new fitting is fed with flexible cable from the rose then it is perfectly acceptable.

He has already said there is no room for the lid to stay in place.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

He has already said there is no room for the lid to stay in place.

Yeah that’s right and it’s all installed now minus the rose lid. Went up fine.

 

[brianmoooore]

Just to be pedantic,isn't there still a reg. that says solid core and flexibles shouldn't be in the same terminal? That rose only has a single earth terminal.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

Just to be pedantic,isn't there still a reg. that says solid core and flexibles shouldn't be in the same terminal? That rose only has a single earth terminal.

God I hope not. I don’t fancy taking it down and changing it all now.

 

[brianmoooore]

I wouldn't worry about it too much! I've fitted lights with similar bases to yours on many occasions while leaving the rose in place. I've even fitted Crabtree roses (which have a lid secured by two screws) specifically to be able to fix the mounting bar on some fittings to it.
A bootlace ferrule can be added to the flexible wire to make it suitable for mixing with solid cores.

 

[Generator]

I think using the existing rose as a connection point is much better (and easier) than joints in the ceiling void. The most important thing is to test for earth continuity of the new metal lighting fitting, when it's all finished.

 

[Mark Huddleston]

I think using the existing rose as a connection point is much better (and easier) than joints in the ceiling void. The most important thing is to test for earth continuity of the new metal lighting fitting, when it's all finished.

Thanks for that but I’m very much your average DIYer so not sure how to test this and sounds like I’ll probably need a multimeter.

 

[Generator]

I'm afraid that's where DIY electrical work reaches it's limit. Electricity is a lethal form of energy - in untrained hands.
Whenever electrical work is carried out, no matter how small the job, the only way to ensure safety is by testing on completion. This needs proper calibrated equipment, in trained hands, with knowledge of the safe limits as specified in the Regs.
The only way to ensure your work is safe is to get a qualified electrician to test it for you.

 

[A032701]

generator,
that is a little bit extreme to get a qualified sparky just to change a light fitting!!
mark if you want you can buy a cheap multimeter for about 8 quid then just plug the red probe into the live terminal and the black probe into earth terminal. if all is well it should work however if there is a break in continuity then you will need a sparkie to do some fault finding.

 

[DPG]

Must admit I think changing a light fitting shouldn't be a problem for the competent DIYer. It's about knowing your limits as well of course.

Would you also stop someone fitting a 13A plug? (plug-top for the benefit of certain people ).

Tin hat on. And tested.