Light Switches in Bathrooms

[Richard Lambert]

I want to fit a light switch on the wall in my new bathroom but I've tried 2 electricians and both will only install a pull cord.

The location of the switch is outside of zone 2, the switch itself is a touch switch rated at IP25, and the circuit is RCD protected. I can't therefore see what the problem is?

I ask them and they just tell me the regs say no switches in bathrooms, only pull cords.

1. Is there something I'm missing in the regs that means I should give up?
2. Being outside zone 2, can I legally fit the switch myself anyway?

Any opinions would be welcomed. Thanks.

 

[telectrix]

nothing to stop you fitting a switch yourself. only problem would be that if it went ---- up, you only have yourself responsible. why not fit a switch outside the room?

 

[Strima]

Condensation doesn't care about zones. The switch needs to have a suitable IP rating, IP25 would not be suitable IMHO for a bathroom location.

Could you not put a switch on the outside of the bathroom?

 

[Spoon]

I'll be the third people to ask. Why not up the switch outside the bathroom?

 

[Andy78]

Condensation doesn't care about zones. The switch needs to have a suitable IP rating, IP25 would not be suitable IMHO for a bathroom location.

Could you not put a switch on the outside of the bathroom?

Out of interest, why not ? If IPX4 is suitable for mains voltage in zone 1 ?

 

[Midwest]

I don't like fitting light switches in bathrooms etc, even outside zones etc. Just doesn't seem right. Even though the light switch we have for our ensuite is outside the room, but you can turn it on from stood in the ensuite

 

[Richard Lambert]

Thanks for your responses. Yes I can either install a pull cord or a switch outside, but the point of my post is to challenge the general assumption that you can never have a switch in a bathroom.

My response to the points raised:

• I’m confused by the comment that IPx5 isn’t enough to protect against condensation even outside of zones. Even within zones 1 and 2 the legal minimum is IPx4. What’s the minimum you’d recommend for any other accessories in a bathroom then? IPx6? IPx7?
  
• The regs state that you can have a normal 240v plug socket can be installed 3m from the boundary of zone 1. My switch would be more than 3m from zone 1, so if condensation is a problem then why can I legally install a regular socket?
  

I appreciate I’m in the lions’ den here but just wanted to get your views on it

 

[Andy78]

Thanks for your responses. Yes I can either install a pull cord or a switch outside, but the point of my post is to challenge the general assumption that you can never have a switch in a bathroom.

My response to the points raised:

• I’m confused by the comment that IPx5 isn’t enough to protect against condensation even outside of zones. Even within zones 1 and 2 the legal minimum is IPx4. What’s the minimum you’d recommend for any other accessories in a bathroom then? IPx6? IPx7?
  
• The regs state that you can have a normal 240v plug socket can be installed 3m from the boundary of zone 1. My switch would be more than 3m from zone 1, so if condensation is a problem then why can I legally install a regular socket?

I appreciate I’m in the lions’ den here but just wanted to get your views on it

You are technically right, and at 3m from zone 1 I wouldn't expect any issues with condensation, especially if decent extraction and airflow is present.
Pull switches are a traditional convention and you'll not persuade many electricians so stray from that.

Also staying to being technically right, if you choose to do this wiring alteration yourself, it should be tested for safety and compliance with the wiring regs and the results recorded on a minor works certificate.

 

[Richard Lambert]

Thanks for that response. Yes any work I've ever done myself has been tested and certified by a qualified electrician afterwards, and I'll need an electrician anyway to do work within the zones so they will probably do it all.

Overall it sounds like the regs allow it, but it has become a 'belt and braces' convention to exceed the regs and not allow switches. Which I can understand, because of the obvious issues of people who've just stepped out the shower switching a switch. I just think you need to re-visit this convention when modern technology presents an IPx5 switch operated by touch and no mechanical parts.

The condensation argument I can understand less, because if you shouldn't allow IPx5 switches for that reason then surely you also shouldn't allow IPx5 shaver sockets, lights, etc?

 

[Strima]

Out of interest, why not ? If IPX4 is suitable for mains voltage in zone 1 ?

IPX4 only protects against splashes, there's still a risk of condensation ingress. I'm not just thinking about the touch aspect but also what effect moisture would have on the switch itself, not everything is manufactured using quality materials, some Chinese items might rot away in a couple of years.

 

[Midwest]

Whilst there are some of us fortunate enough to have large bathrooms that would accommodate reg 701.512.3 and the socket outlet, I think some should reflect on the usage of such rooms, and the human beings inalienable right to be stupid.

The majority of times when using these rooms, the human being is at its most vulnerable, generally naked, certainly the feet and usually wet or stood in water. Now its probable the flooring is insulating the human being from Earth, I for one wouldn't want to chance it. You don't see many sockets & light switches in swimming pool confines. But you did hear of youngsters taking TV's, iPods etc into bathrooms. I wouldn't want to be turning on a light switch, stood in water.

Apparently the Europeans, seem to take a different standpoint; another good reason for Brexit, IMO.

 

[telectrix]

think this might be relevant:

 

[Devonchris]

The Regs don't talk about "bathrooms" anymore. It's now a room containing a bath or shower. What about a bath or shower in a large bedroom? See quite a few these days. Are you suggesting you wouldn't fit a socket or light switch in there?

Why are so many electricians stuck in the past? Poor grasp of the regs, then try to justify it because it's "traditional". If the regs allow it then give the customer what they want. Satisfied customer = repeat business = recommendation? It's called professionalism, unfortunately lacking in many professions today.

Just a general comment not directed anywhere particular. I'm ready for the flak .

 

[Des 56]

Yes there seems to be a automatic hands in the air amazement that such things are considered
I personally have never heard of anyone getting a shock from tracking on a wall switch in a special location

Would a fan isolator type switch (where the front cover clips on) be enough to placate the fears I wonder

 

[telectrix]

has to be a metal faceplate , un-earthed , for when m-i-l comes round for a shower.

 

[Midwest]

You lot would have music speakers & scented candles; bathrooms for washing. Now consuming beer or wine while luxuriating in the bath, that's different. No light switches mind

 

[RWJ]

I've got a light switch in my bathroom, it's 12v SELV in to a relay. I decided to use a 20mm rocker switch not a normal light switch due to "know it alls" that would tell me it's illegal etc. It turns the shower light off as the light is normally controlled by a flow switch, so you can just have the RGB led strip on!

 

[Pete E]

Another perspective is that regs are minimum standards and a qualified/experienced spark he may feel that while a certain customer request is technically allowable, he may still consider it not a good idea on safety grounds....

 

[telectrix]

be worse still on coffee grounds.

 

[Octopus]

Common sense says fit it outside ...........

The 2 sparks who say its not allowed are wrong IMHO.

 

[Andy78]

IPX4 only protects against splashes, there's still a risk of condensation ingress. I'm not just thinking about the touch aspect but also what effect moisture would have on the switch itself, not everything is manufactured using quality materials, some Chinese items might rot away in a couple of years.

Condensation would come under IPX3 to my mind.
"locations in which sprayed water forms a continuous film on floors and walls" (appx 5)
This is pretty much how condensation behaves, settles on the walls and runs down.

IPX5 withstands hose sprayed water from all directions which would be sufficient to resist water gently running down a wall.
Every item I install outside such as sockets, isolators and switches only has a rating of IPX5, would be rare for me to install a higher rating, yet that is deemed suitable and suffers no ill effects.

Coupled with the OP's stated 3.6m from the bath, I'd have no qualms installing this item in this position. He should still get an electrician to do the work though.

 

[Strima]

Condensation would come under IPX3 to my mind.
"locations in which sprayed water forms a continuous film on floors and walls" (appx 5)
This is pretty much how condensation behaves, settles on the walls and runs down.

IPX5 withstands hose sprayed water from all directions which would be sufficient to resist water gently running down a wall.
Every item I install outside such as sockets, isolators and switches only has a rating of IPX5, would be rare for me to install a higher rating, yet that is deemed suitable and suffers no ill effects.

Coupled with the OP's stated 3.6m from the bath, I'd have no qualms installing this item in this position. He should still get an electrician to do the work though.

I understand your reasoning on the condensation thing. TBH all rooms have different temperature variables so condensation may not be a problem, another room with poor ventilation may suffer badly from it.

My method of thinking was water vapour condensing on a cold spot within an accessory over a period of time and not drying out, unlikely but could happen in extreme circumstances.

To be fair with a room that size I can’t see a problem with a switch internally.

I wish my bathroom was that big.

 

[Baker1988]

I also would be happy to do what other have said. I would suggest that it might be better as a pull switch or to be outside but if the customer wanted it then i personally would of just done it.

 

[Adam W]

Whilst there are some of us fortunate enough to have large bathrooms that would accommodate reg 701.512.3 and the socket outlet, I think some should reflect on the usage of such rooms, and the human beings inalienable right to be stupid.

The majority of times when using these rooms, the human being is at its most vulnerable, generally naked, certainly the feet and usually wet or stood in water. Now its probable the flooring is insulating the human being from Earth, I for one wouldn't want to chance it. You don't see many sockets & light switches in swimming pool confines. But you did hear of youngsters taking TV's, iPods etc into bathrooms. I wouldn't want to be turning on a light switch, stood in water.

Apparently the Europeans, seem to take a different standpoint; another good reason for Brexit, IMO.

While I completely agree that it's safer not to have appliances in a location containing a bath or a shower, the counter argument would be that when needs must ingenuity reigns supreme - if someone wants to use a hairdryer in the bathroom then they will, whether it involves pinching the cable in the door or running an extension lead, then branding the lack of a socket in the bathroom as "stupid".

In the US, not only can they have a socket in the bathroom (GFCI receptacle), they must have a socket in the bathroom, the idea being that if anyone wants to use an appliance in the bathroom then they'll use the one in there with a 10mA RCD instead of trying to run a flex from outside the location containing a bath or shower.
Maybe in this respect they have a point - that it's safer to give users what they want in a controlled way instead of hoping that they'll obey the rules.

 

[elsparko]

has to be a metal faceplate , un-earthed , for when m-i-l comes round for a shower.

metal floor tiles connected to L?

 

[telectrix]

metal floor tiles connected to L?

now that's just plain naughty.

 

[Toneyz]

You lot would have music speakers & scented candles; bathrooms for washing. Now consuming beer or wine while luxuriating in the bath, that's different. No light switches mind

And a smoke in Tels case.

 

[Venusandmars]

Since moving to the UK from Oz the horrible noisy click clak of those pull chords in bathrooms has always irritated me as switches seem to be used in Oz within about 1.8m. There must surely be a sensible safe (and quiet) alternative to an unsightly pull chord.

 

[James]

Wireless switches, pneumatic switches, passive infrared switches.
Normal switches outside the room.
There are lots of possibilities.

 

[Sw33tnuff]

If you really really want a switch in the bathroom, why not invest in a Quinitic switch system. I sure your prefered local electrician woul be happy to assist reg: 701.512.3 wouldnt be breached.

 

[LastManOnline]

Thanks for your responses. Yes I can either install a pull cord or a switch outside, but the point of my post is to challenge the general assumption that you can never have a switch in a bathroom.

My response to the points raised:

• I’m confused by the comment that IPx5 isn’t enough to protect against condensation even outside of zones. Even within zones 1 and 2 the legal minimum is IPx4. What’s the minimum you’d recommend for any other accessories in a bathroom then? IPx6? IPx7?
• The regs state that you can have a normal 240v plug socket can be installed 3m from the boundary of zone 1. My switch would be more than 3m from zone 1, so if condensation is a problem then why can I legally install a regular socket?

I appreciate I’m in the lions’ den here but just wanted to get your views on it

Your confusion is completely justified. Like many other objectively minded reasonable people you naturally wonder why an electrician considers it fine for you to step into a shower tray and operate an electric shower while water is flowing around your feet but consider it deadly dangerous to operate a light switch 2 mts from the wet area.

 

[DPG]

Your confusion is completely justified. Like many other objectively minded reasonable people you naturally wonder why an electrician considers it fine for you to step into a shower tray and operate an electric shower while water is flowing around your feet but consider it deadly dangerous to operate a light switch 2 mts from the wet area.

An electric shower is designed to be used in a wet environment. It is specifically built for this purpose. A standard light switch is not, and shouldn't be operated by someone who is dripping wet.

 

[LastManOnline]

An electric shower is designed to be used in a wet environment. It is specifically built for this purpose. A standard light switch is not, and shouldn't be operated by someone who is dripping wet.

A standard light switch is used in virtually every other country in the world in situations I described above. And guess what, people like you and me use them freely when we travel abroad. Ever had any problems?

 

[DPG]

A standard light switch is used in virtually every other country in the world in situations I described above. And guess what, people like you and me use them freely when we travel abroad. Ever had any problems?

A lot of other countries have light fittings that aren't suitable for bathrooms too. So are you also saying we should just fit whatever light fittings we want in bathrooms?

No, I've never personally had a problem. However that doesn't make it OK.

 

[LastManOnline]

A lot of other countries have light fittings that aren't suitable for bathrooms too. So are you also saying we should just fit whatever light fittings we want in bathrooms?

No, I've never personally had a problem. However that doesn't make it OK.

Well let's just stick with the light switch for now.The OP made a completely reasonable comment using good sense. He is told that in the UK and here (ROI) that he is somehow in "mortal danger" if he uses a light switch in his bathroom. He has likely noticed when he goes abroad that people use switches (and sockets) in bathrooms. In fact he has done the same himself (and survived!) He has noticed that people are not lying dead in the streets.He has rightly concluded that something is not stacking up here.

 

[DPG]

Well let's just stick with the light switch for now.The OP made a completely reasonable comment using good sense. He is told that in the UK and here (ROI) that he is somehow in "mortal danger" if he uses a light switch in his bathroom. He has likely noticed when he goes abroad that people use switches (and sockets) in bathrooms. In fact he has done the same himself (and survived!) He has noticed that people are not lying dead in the streets.He has rightly concluded that something is not stacking up here.

Well I personally would not operate a standard light switch when I was wet from getting out of the bath.

 

[LastManOnline]

Well I personally would not operate a standard light switch when I was wet from getting out of the bath.

Neither would I. Amazing how the continentals have managed to educate their populations in the safe use of electrics in wet areas. Could we learn something there?

 

[pc1966]

Ah, the smell of Darwin in the morning!

 

[DPG]

Neither would I. Amazing how the continentals have managed to educate their populations in the safe use of electrics in wet areas. Could we learn something there?

Well most people in the uk probably wouldn't use the switches when wet either. But surely better safe than sorry?

 

[LastManOnline]

Ah, the smell of Darwin in the morning!

I won't even pretend to know what that comment means?

 

[pc1966]

It is less disturbing that the old favourite "Frying tonight!"

Credit to the late great Kenneth Williams...

 

[littlespark]

Have you never heard of the Darwin Awards?

 

[LastManOnline]

Well most people in the uk probably wouldn't use the switches when wet either. But surely better safe than sorry?

I don't know about you but I feel comepletely safe using a light switch in a bathroom. Just like using sockets in kitchens when cooking or washing we all take common sense precautions. Now when I step into an electric shower even though as you say its "designed" I am always aware of the greater potential for danger. Having worked on them for many years (perhaps like yourself) I am not overly impressed with the "design" of them.

 

[LastManOnline]

Have you never heard of the Darwin Awards?

Yes. thanks. I did, nt realise I was been nominated though?

 

[Midwest]

Couldn’t sleep to night, ended up pursuing on here. From my research, it seems the French for example have similar zones in bathrooms, much as we have. But apparently larger bathrooms than we. So is it a bit of a myth that they put light switches next to a bath or shower cubic?

If you consider safety, you don't see many sockets & light switches in swimming pool confines, so why would a bathroom be any less different?

Some French comments on the subject;

https://ckenb.blogspot.com/2010/06/french-light-switches.html
https://sarlwiseman.com/blog/post/french-electrical-regulations---part-2-bathroom-zones
https://www.completefrance.com/living-in-france/french-plumbing-and-electrics-1-1518579

Of course you could take it to another level.

https://www.amusingplanet.com/2016/08/denki-buro-electric-baths-of-japan.html

Must try and get some sleep now.

 

[LastManOnline]

Couldn’t sleep to night, ended up pursuing on here. From my research, it seems the French for example have similar zones in bathrooms, much as we have. But apparently larger bathrooms than we. So is it a bit of a myth that they put light switches next to a bath or shower cubic?



https://www.amusingplanet.com/2016/08/denki-buro-electric-baths-of-japan.html

Must try and get some sleep now.

 

[LastManOnline]

Next to the shower, no. But in zone 2 yes. Particularly common in countries like Spain, Italy etc and I believe Mike Johnson confirmed also in France.

 

[Midwest]

Next to the shower, no. But in zone 2 yes. Particularly common in countries like Spain, Italy etc and I believe Mike Johnson confirmed also in France.

I don't know where the practise for installing light switches outside bathrooms, ever came from. BS 7671 only ever said at worst, that said switch should not be accessible from the bath, or always outside zone 2 in recent editions.

If you read the link about zones or volumes in France I set out in my post 45, it suggests class 1 light switches can be installed in 'no volumes', the same as our guidance of installing outside of zone 2. In fact its the same distance >0.6m from the edge of the bath.

Perhaps its diy'ers in France not following the guidance. The first link to a blog, talks about light switches in France being installed outside the room its for, including bathrooms.

As a lot of UK bathrooms have a quite small floor area, sometimes the only way to achieve the guidance, is a pull cord or switch outside, unless you live in BP and have a bathroom the size squash court.

Time for bed soon

 

[LastManOnline]

I don't know where the practise for installing light switches outside bathrooms, ever came from. BS 7671 only ever said at worst, that said switch should not be accessible from the bath, or always outside zone 2 in recent editions.

If you read the link about zones or volumes in France I set out in my post 45, it suggests class 1 light switches can be installed in 'no volumes', the same as our guidance of installing outside of zone 2. In fact its the same distance >0.6m from the edge of the bath.

Perhaps its diy'ers in France not following the guidance. The first link to a blog, talks about light switches in France being installed outside the room its for, including bathrooms.

As a lot of UK bathrooms have a quite small floor area, sometimes the only way to achieve the guidance, is a pull cord or switch outside, unless you live in BP and have a bathroom the size squash court.

Time for bed soon

Your point about DIY, ers may well be valid. From the links you posted I get the impression that the idea of zones in bathrooms is a relatively new developement for the French. But it's clear that they will allow a light switch to be installed in 0.7 meters from wet area

 

[Simon47]

I understand your reasoning on the condensation thing. TBH all rooms have different temperature variables so condensation may not be a problem, another room with poor ventilation may suffer badly from it.

My method of thinking was water vapour condensing on a cold spot within an accessory over a period of time and not drying out, unlikely but could happen in extreme circumstances.

Obvious question in response to this ...
Why is a pull-cord switch, mounted on the ceiling where the most humid air goes, immune to this while a switch located lower down where the humidity is lower isn't ? Not only that, but a ceiling mounted switch has a higher chance of having an opening to the attic and it's cold, damp air.