Minimum Qualifications Required

[Octopus]

I'm only starting this thread because 2 last night got locked by Marvo before I could respond again.

So in response to:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...orum/82885-minimum-qualifications-needed.html

More harm was done by the replies to the original thread because of the en-masse stupidly thought out answers by most of the responders, which to be frank simply makes us look daft.

The OP's question was quite simple (maybe not thought out correctly) and the obvious answer was the membership of Part P via a scheme - whether we like that or not its here to stay..... I interact with sparks of all grades and from what I see there is NO correlation between a Electrical Trainee cutting corners and the bad installs I see. In fact there are a number of "time served" sparks around me who do downright dodgy, non certificated, CIH jobs.

So next time there's a thread like last nights lets keep the reponses on track and constructive...... rants about the schemes and Electrical Trainee's don't help and actually, IMHO do more harm, and make us look foolish.

Tin hat on.

Edit: I now see far more dodgy kitchen installs since the scope of Part P got relaxed...

 

[Regs]

So the troll shows his true colours

Oh and by the way you are not correct.

At what point did i say i would do the above??
Firstly i dont touch part p work
Secondly i would not be joining NICEIC in next few weeks, if you want to see my invoice for 390+78 vat = 468 i wii post it just to shut yoou the hell up site foreman

 

[markc123]

Im simply just pointing out that the regs, rules seem to be a bit of a joke at times. I like definate answers not interpretations

That's the point though, everyone interprets the regs differently. Theres no 'set' answers. It's down to professional judgement half the time - you make your bed and you lie in it so to speak.

Like i say the regs are non-stat.

 

[Des 56]

Im simply just pointing out that the regs, rules seem to be a bit of a joke at times. I like definate answers not interpretations

So you must think it was written by a bunch of comedians mmm

They are written by a committee of what is supposed to be the best that UK plc can conjure up
You ask many questions on this forum so please answer one for yourself
When or how do you believe you obtained sufficient knowledge to contradict them?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

experience is not a thing that can be passed on. crabs, genital warts, AIDS, these can all be passed on. experience has to be learnt.

Sorry Tel, you're wrong there... AIDS cant be passed on, the HIV virus which may turn into AIDS can though. Its actually now classed as a chronic disease (like diabetes) rather than terminal due to the huge breakthrough in treatments... also......

oops.. Got a bit carried away there, only because the other conversation has been talked about quite a bit, its all very interesting though :teeth_smile:

 

[Knobhead]

Well, the idea of the thread was good Murdoch and I fully agree with the sentiment. Pity it’s gone belly up.

SS Electrical is heading the same way as the Titanic. The iceberg being in the shape of the scams that admit anyone regardless of relevant qualifications.

What you do about them I don’t know. The chances of any good coming of the parliamentary committee are slim.
I’ve personally never had anything to do with or ever needed any scam. They are of no use in the industries I’ve worked in. It’s down to you professional domestic electricians to oust the impostors.

I know it’s harsh but you need another MP’s daughter fried by an incompetent installation.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well, the idea of the thread was good Murdoch and I fully agree with the sentiment. Pity it’s gone belly up.

SS Electrical is heading the same way as the Titanic. The iceberg being in the shape of the scams that admit anyone regardless of relevant qualifications.

What you do about them I don’t know. The chances of any good coming of the parliamentary committee are slim.
I’ve personally never had anything to do with or ever needed any scam. They are of no use in the industries I’ve worked in. It’s down to you professional domestic electricians to oust the impostors.

I know it’s harsh but you need another MP’s daughter fried by an incompetent installation.

and on that note another good quote would be:

`well, a large oil tanker takes a long time to turn`..
or:
`the ships just too damn big with too small a rudder`

take your pick...

 

[Knobhead]

Doesn't matter to me which way things go, I'm in my life boat.

 

[Regs]

So you must think it was written by a bunch of comedians mmm

They are written by a committee of what is supposed to be the best that UK plc can conjure up
You ask many questions on this forum so please answer one for yourself
When or how do you believe you obtained sufficient knowledge to contradict them?

Dont get me started.
I never said comedians did i, but dont get why its not written in more of a leymens terms.
BS7671 is mostly written in code language that most electricians would not have the intellect to understand or we would not be electricians in the first place would we, no offence. You need to much time to find the correct page even then everything is vague. Thats why so many of us turn to these sites. In my opinion it should not be made out of so many interpretation but more stone facts to follow. Interpretation only add to the confusion i think. Why do they bring out a new books every few years, just $$'s

 

[Toby Kuhnert]

Dont get me started.
I never said comedians did i, but dont get why its not written in more of a leymens terms.
BS7671 is mostly written in code language that most electricians would not have the intellect to understand or we would not be electricians in the first place would we, no offence. You need to much time to find the correct page even then everything is vague. Thats why so many of us turn to these sites. In my opinion it should not be made out of so many interpretation but more stone facts to follow. Interpretation only add to the confusion i think. Why do they bring out a new books every few years, just $$'s

There is the onsite guide!.. haha. As it has already been mentioned, it is sometimes up to your interpretation, as a professional. I'd say most of the regs is in plain English! not being funny or anything... tin hat on!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Doesn't matter to me which way things go, I'm in my life boat.

except their aint enough...some aboard this ship are going to die..
after all lifeboats are a good waste of deckspace n all that lot...

 

[Marvo]

Dont get me started.
I never said comedians did i, but dont get why its not written in more of a leymens terms.
BS7671 is mostly written in code language that most electricians would not have the intellect to understand or we would not be electricians in the first place would we, no offence. You need to much time to find the correct page even then everything is vague. Thats why so many of us turn to these sites. In my opinion it should not be made out of so many interpretation but more stone facts to follow. Interpretation only add to the confusion i think. Why do they bring out a new books every few years, just $$'s

All you've done in this post is highlight the difference between someone who's competent to work on electrical installations and someone who should be working under supervision. The regulations weren't written for 'laymen' to understand, they were written as guidance for professionals. If you can't find your way around the regulations book and you don't understand the interpretations of the regs you shouldn't be working unsupervised.

 

[Regs]

All you've done in this post is highlight the difference between someone who's competent to work on electrical installations and someone who should be working under supervision.

Your point is??

The regulations weren't written for 'laymen' to understand,

Well they should be

they were written as guidance for professionals.

Where does it say that in bs7671, making up rubbish

If you can't find your way around the regulations book and you don't understand the interpretations of the regs you shouldn't be working unsupervised.

Is that not the whole point of passing the 17th
Do what you do best and close the post

 

[Marvo]

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Engineer54]

OOH Dear handbags!

I am not going to get tangled in the pro's and con's of all of this, but i will voice my opinions in the good name of the forum.

I think the DIY forum is an excellent idea, i am more than happy to post and advise in there, and this is why. Over the years i have been on no end of forums looking for advice about no end of different things, and for the most part the advice given has been excellent, even when that advice was not was i was wanting to hear like "I suggest you contact a diesel specialist".

Why do Electricians see themselves as being above everyone else just because we did an Apprenticeship? We are not the only apprentice trained trade out there, and we are not the only trade who has people in it without formal qualifications.

Cheers...............

Howard

Correct, but then being an electricians is one of the very few trades where you really do ''Need'' both appropriate ''Qualifications'' AND a good deal of ''Experience'' to be able to work safely without putting clients/customers or their property at serious risk!!

When i first came into this industry the electrician in the field was probably the most respected tradesmen on site, that was also the case within industrial maintenance too.
Can't say that today can you, the industry is being de-skilled to the point where you're offered £8 or £9 per hour take it or leave it, from what i can see....

You can lay that firmly at the door of the scheme providers for allowing not only ill trained experience less so called DI's but then authenticating limited scope plumbers and kitchen fitters etc. (These being the very same organizations that were put in place to certify competency) and these buggers are actually taking work away from the qualified electricians!!

An Apprentice Trained and Qualified Electrician has in my opinion, Every Right to put himself above any of these jokers above, that think they are qualified, they damn well ''ain't''!! They shouldn't be allowed to be out there receiving monies from customers that have been hoodwinked into believing these fakes are in anyway qualified!!

If you notice, all the likes and Thanks put up on those threads that even remotely support these wannabe's in the industry. are virtually all fast track wannbe's themselves!! lol!!

 

[Mr Hehound]

Is that not the whole point of passing the 17th
Do what you do best and close the post

BS7671 is not the B&Q Big Book of DIY - its written the same as pretty much every technical manual you'll come across.

Any-who. What's really sad is that this whole short course / college and experience / apprenticeship from 16 yrs / only an electrician if you were born of a spark as was his father before him and can trace your family line back to Voltaire ******** takes up more space on here than actual technical / practical questions and advice.

(For what it's worth I avoid these threads like the plague, have no real hatred towards people retraining and my personal view is that a JIB Gold card = Electrician but not having one doesn't necessarily mean incompetance or laziness.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

BS7671 is not the B&Q Big Book of DIY - its written the same as pretty much every technical manual you'll come across.

Any-who. What's really sad is that this whole short course / college and experience / apprenticeship from 16 yrs / only an electrician if you were born of a spark as was his father before him and can trace your family line back to Voltaire ******** takes up more space on here than actual technical / practical questions and advice.

(For what it's worth I avoid these threads like the plague, have no real hatred towards people retraining and my personal view is that a JIB Gold card = Electrician but not having one doesn't necessarily mean incompetance or laziness.

OK..the wickes `good idea` leaflets then...

 

[Engineer54]

Originally Posted by Marvo
All you've done in this post is highlight the difference between someone who's competent to work on electrical installations and someone who should be working under supervision.

Your point is?? I think the point he's making is totally clear!!

The regulations weren't written for 'laymen' to understand,

Well they should be Oh Dear GOD ....are you for Real!!

they were written as guidance for professionals.

Where does it say that in bs7671, making up rubbish The only person talking rubbish here as far as i can see, is You!!

If you can't find your way around the regulations book and you don't understand the interpretations of the regs you shouldn't be working unsupervised.

Is that not the whole point of passing the 17th
Do what you do best and close the post
Any fool or his dog can pass the ''Open Book'' 17th exam Doesn't mean that you come even close to understanding it's complexities though, for that you need a thorough training, and a decent chunk of experience to go with it!!!!

You really don't have much of a clue at all do you!!

 

[Knobhead]

Alarm bells started ringing with me about ten / twelve years back interviewing industrial electricians, the standard seemed so low. As a company we didn’t require membership of a governing body, you came with you’re indentures and qualifications and proved yourself worthy.

The regulations were secondary to the need to know electrical theory. Without the theory to back you up you simply couldn’t do the job. The theory is the same, but it’s now so much easier with the information you can get on the internet.

The internet was a fall back, not the primary source of knowledge.


Now having seen how the rest of the trade has gone I despair. In a way the internet has undermined our once proud trade. Why do you have to know how something works, just get on you’re smart phone and someone will do the thinking for you. Hence me saying I’m all for passing on knowledge but only if it’s going to be used safely.

 

[coldyron]

An Apprentice Trained and Qualified Electrician has in my opinion, Every Right to put himself above any of these jokers above, that think they are qualified, they damn well ''ain't''!! They shouldn't be allowed to be out there receiving monies from customers that have been hoodwinked into believing these fakes are in anyway qualified!!

I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of people who do the apprenticeship straight from school do so because they're thick and not going to get anywhere in life so an apprenticeship is pretty much the difference between having a trade or working in HMV.

Some turn out quite well, others don't. Nowadays they seem to be a lot lazier than when I was doing my apprenticeship 10 years ago.

In fact I'd probably have more faith in someone who has ploughed his or her own redundancy money into learning a new skill over someone who left school with minimal qualifications and spent most of their time footing a ladder or making off plug tops.

So all this "An Apprentice Trained and Qualified Electrician has in my opinion, Every Right to put himself above any of these jokers above, that think they are qualified, they damn well ''ain't''!!" is balls to be honest.

 

[Octopus]

At what point did i say i would do the above??
Firstly i dont touch part p work
Secondly i would not be joining NICEIC in next few weeks, if you want to see my invoice for 390+78 vat = 468 i wii post it just to shut yoou the hell up site foreman

So if you don't touch Part P work, then why are you joining the NIC?

When people join this site, the ones that throw their teddies out of the pram, throw their weight around and LIE, normally get "recognised" - and BOY do you fit into this bracket.