Moved house into a disaster zone

[fourtytwo]

Whew makes me wonder if a part P inspection should be part of the house move process!
The house I have moved into is a nightmare, I thought isolating the lethal external wiring would do the trick but today I was stupid enough to start inspecting some suspicious power sockets around the house.........Ohh myyy
The first delight was a mystery spur fuse turned on but what did it power ? well it seemed nothing, on further investigation the spur it fed in 2.5mm disappeared into the wall behind the back box and upon pulling came free with a cut-off end!!

As I continued I kept finding loose screws resulting in wires pulling free from the sockets (not sure about TV antenna in same back box behind blank plate either)

As I progressed along the loose screw brigade things got more serious, here we have a Neutral ring break

And then the worst uncovered so far a high resistance arcing live ring break that has melted the insulation, made contact with the earth and blown it in half resulting in an earth ring break also

Needless to say the damaged socket was replaced. I have many more disasters found and undoubtedly given the quality of what I have found so far more to come. My most serious worry is loose terminals in junction boxes under the floors (there are many spurs with no apparent source) that are now unfortunately covered with wretched laminate flooring over the floorboards.
I will add further horrors for those who can stand it!

 

[pc1966]

That is rough as a badger's gluteus maximus.

It is the sort of thing that cries out for a rewire just because you can't trust any hidden stuff. At least with a RFC you can get an idea if the links are all low-R, but not the many other routes to failure. Any photos of the CU with cover off? (Power off first, obviously!)

 

[fourtytwo]

That is rough as a badger's gluteus maximus.

It is the sort of thing that cries out for a rewire just because you can't trust any hidden stuff. At least with a RFC you can get an idea if the links are all low-R, but not the many other routes to failure. Any photos of the CU with cover off? (Power off first, obviously!)

Umm what's an RFC, sounds just the job, ring something ?
I did post the CU elsewhere but it's so beautiful (NOT) it deserves a copy, this is when I arrived and first became suspicious when I found a double socket wired to the CU in 6A flex

 

[Dartlec]

Whew makes me wonder if a part P inspection should be part of the house move process!
The house I have moved into is a nightmare, I thought isolating the lethal external wiring would do the trick but today I was stupid enough to start inspecting some suspicious power sockets around the house.........Ohh myyy
The first delight was a mystery spur fuse turned on but what did it power ? well it seemed nothing, on further investigation the spur it fed in 2.5mm disappeared into the wall behind the back box and upon pulling came free with a cut-off end!!
View attachment 99355
As I continued I kept finding loose screws resulting in wires pulling free from the sockets (not sure about TV antenna in same back box behind blank plate either)
View attachment 99356
As I progressed along the loose screw brigade things got more serious, here we have a Neutral ring break
View attachment 99357
And then the worst uncovered so far a high resistance arcing live ring break that has melted the insulation, made contact with the earth and blown it in half resulting in an earth ring break also
View attachment 99358
View attachment 99359
View attachment 99360
Needless to say the damaged socket was replaced. I have many more disasters found and undoubtedly given the quality of what I have found so far more to come. My most serious worry is loose terminals in junction boxes under the floors (there are many spurs with no apparent source) that are now unfortunately covered with wretched laminate flooring over the floorboards.
I will add further horrors for those who can stand it!

When Home Information Packs were originally planned, the idea was that they would include an electrical report. The idea was shot down by landlords and those who made lots of money from the property market (some of them MPs).

Of course it would have been likely implemented badly and be open to abuse, just like the recent Rental inspections have been, but it would have meant that any seller would have had to get an inspection done - for all potential purchasers to see - and there would have been comeback if someone bought the house and it was obviously forged....

Seeing these pictures after the other post, at least it looks like the cabling visible isn't the nasty VIR stuff - more likely 60s-70s, which may have some life in it if properly installed - though a rewire should probably in the not too distant agenda.

Does sound like it needs a proper EICR to work out what can and can't be kept though. There would be no point in putting an RCD on any of that installation without a thorough test as the chances are it would just trip constantly....

(RFC is Ring Final Circuit btw)

 

[Dustydazzler]

An electrical report might be handy if you want to know if the gaff needs an urgent re-wire but even if this is the case the seller is under no obligation to knock money off for electrical repairs or re-wires...

I guess what it does give is the buyer the option to pull out of the purchase on the grounds the house requires thousands spending on a re-wire , new consumer unit etc

In an ideal world a house being put on the open market would come with a fairly recent EICR and Boiler Service Cert etc etc To help assist a potential buyer when it comes to making an offer

 

[Mike Johnson]

The OP says "The house I have moved into" if this is a rental then the landlord should have a certificate of the electrical installation condition.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The OP says "The house I have moved into" if this is a rental then the landlord should have a certificate of the electrical installation condition.

Would love to see that EICR ( if there even is one )

 

[fourtytwo]

The OP says "The house I have moved into" if this is a rental then the landlord should have a certificate of the electrical installation condition.

Unfortunately I bought it! Buyer beware as they say......

 

[fourtytwo]

Would love to see that EICR ( if there even is one )

One word I should think "CONDEMNED". Unfortunately as not a rental there isnt one.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I wouldn't get too uptight about it, seem far worse, what did the house details say when you bought? Did you buy through and Agent, they have certain responsibilities on what they say and sell.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Sometimes in life you just need to suck it up and do the repair work yourself , in this case a full proper re-wire

Once its done properly its good for the next 50 years so in the grand scheme its well worth the investment of a full re-wire and ultimately will add some value once you come to sell

 

[UNG]

Clearly this is an older property so I think it is fair to say that it should be expected that some work will be needed
The buyer has the opportunity to get reports on a number of things during the purchase process although while viewing the property it would be reasonably safe to assume that the electrical installation had problems without the need for an EICR so when making an offer this maybe should have been taken into consideration that a rewire was possibly needed

 

[Electro-tech]

To be honest I would get the DNO involved to see if they are happy with the fixing of their equipment & their opinion on the earth clamp. An initial visit by an Electrician to carry out a few safety Tests, knowing he will recommend a Rewire if he knows about what you have already posted. He can also quote for the work saving another visit.

 

[UNG]

To be honest I would get the DNO involved to see if they are happy with the fixing of their equipment & their opinion on the earth clamp. An initial visit by an Electrician to carry out a few safety Tests, knowing he will recommend a Rewire if he knows about what you have already posted. He can also quote for the work saving another visit.

What pictures are you looking at or are you replying to a different thread

 

[Electro-tech]

What pictures are you looking at or are you replying to a different thread

It would appear I have done exactly that. Never mind.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Easily done the OP has three threads running at the moment.

 

[fourtytwo]

Sorry about the multiple threads, to continue this one with a few recent ahmmm discoveries!
First a spur to nowhere with a broken off earth together with a 3 way lighting cable hidden behind a blanking plate, no idea if the other end is connected so chocolate blocked for safety

A spur hidden amongst the boiler pipes in the garage ceiling (nice gaffa tape)

But today's prize goes to doorbell wiring (clear figure 8) inside the CU

The pic is upside down to get the camera in place, you can see a bell wire coming out the wall on the left & disappearing behind the CU it winds around inside and is finished off with a bit of black pvc tape that fell off when touched. Two other bell wires appear from a hole at the rear of the CU that goes up to the 1st floor, they are twisted together and screwed into the earth bar! Who knows why and until I can get under the floor upstairs (dreaded laminate) I have left them be whilst removing the taped up one.

 

[brianmoooore]

The wiring to three of the GEC MCBs is rubber, and that to the fourth looks like polythene. Tin plated earth wires as well.
That alone suggests that a full rewire is long overdue.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Rip it all out and start again

 

[Mike Johnson]

Has this hose turned into not so much of a bargain as you thought or is it just what you expected considering the price you paid?

 

[fourtytwo]

Has this hose turned into not so much of a bargain as you thought or is it just what you expected considering the price you paid?

It's very hard to say considering the then state of the housing market, we could have lost our buyer the first serious one in many months if we had prevaricated and there were a few people sniffing around this property. We had already rejected our 1st choice when on viewing it turned out to have a shared sewage system and long access road with a much larger property not revealed on the details and some other problems so we were under pressure to find somewhere. Frankly it is a lot worse than I had bargained for but not as bad as it could be, after all we like the style, size and location, just need a pot of gold to fix it all up, just need to buy time in the meantime, so the fire alarms are already installed!!

 

[fourtytwo]

Rip it all out and start again

As many have said quite rightly too, but for many reasons I am afraid this will be done somewhat piecemeal. I had a serious look at lifting the laminate flooring in the room above the CU to locate the VIR power cables & bell wires but sadly it has been installed BEFORE new skirting boards were fitted so it will require considerable damage to the otherwise ok decor. I am quite pleased that I have fixed many serious faults on the main ring just by tightening screws. I did a load (1kW) voltage drop test on many outlets today (2-3V) and I think that together with a ring resistance test the other day confirms the ring and it's main spurs are now free of high impedance joints. The only ongoing worry is the condition of the remaining invisible VIR cable hence the fire alarms.

 

[fourtytwo]

The wiring to three of the GEC MCBs is rubber, and that to the fourth looks like polythene. Tin plated earth wires as well.
That alone suggests that a full rewire is long overdue.

Your absolutely right Brian but as I explained in other posts this is somewhat impracticable atm mostly due to severe decor wrecking constraints so I intend a rolling program of improvements. So far I have eliminated the high resistance joints in the ring main and it's spurs together with any dangerous wiring in user touchable locations. My next project is to impedance test the old spur I found tucked up among the boiler pipes in the garage as I suspect this was the original garage feed. If it proves good I can eliminate the diy botch external unprotected wiring that currently feeds the garage. I have a theory as to why this was done that includes a hot tub in the garden (previous owner) powered from the garage and arcing ring joints!

 

[brianmoooore]

At least get some RCD protection on it, even if it's a single 30mA RCD in the tails to the fusebox.

 

[fourtytwo]

At least get some RCD protection on it, even if it's a single 30mA RCD in the tails to the fusebox.

I was thinking that but some opinioned on here with the state of the wiring it would just continuously nuisance trip! If only I had a megger but I only have a standard DVM. There is another thread on here by me about CU RCD protection as the CU was labelled as having it but it turns out not to.

 

[brianmoooore]

It might nuisance trip, but if it does, the insulation resistance is at a minimum 67 times worse than the minimum allowable. The RCD will be doing its job, trying to keep you alive, either from dying directly by electrocution, or in a house fire.

 

[brianmoooore]

I have seen lengths of VIR cable, several inches long, where the insulation has completely crumbled away, leaving three bare parallel wires. These will give an absolutely perfect reading if tested with a megger - right up to the point they are disturbed.

 

[westward10]

That doesn't look like laminate flooring more like Moduleo or Karndean or though I could be wrong. I do know it is seriously expensive as I have Moduleo but it can be lifted reboarded and relaid but you would need a suitable fitter.

 

[fourtytwo]

It might nuisance trip, but if it does, the insulation resistance is at a minimum 67 times worse than the minimum allowable. The RCD will be doing its job, trying to keep you alive, either from dying directly by electrocution, or in a house fire.

My feelings too Brian, I think you just tipped the balance, as if it nuisance trips the floors will have to come up anyway. Would you like to opinion if a spark would be prepared to fit a tail type RCD to this installation assuming I can find one (qualified spark) ?

 

[brianmoooore]

What state are the ceilings in? There's more than one way of getting into the ceiling - floor void.

 

[westward10]

I doubt any electrician with a conscious would replace that consumer unit unless it was an emergency fit.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I certainly wouldn't touch that board unless it was part of a full re-wire

 

[fourtytwo]

That doesn't look like laminate flooring more like Moduleo or Karndean or though I could be wrong. I do know it is seriously expensive as I have Moduleo but it can be lifted reboarded and relaid but you would need a suitable fitter.

Hmmm I am no expert having never had the stuff before. It seems to be in modules about two planks wide by maybe a metre long, very tight joints, almost invisible and no big expansion gap around the edges, what there is is firmly under the skirting boards all round

 

[brianmoooore]

I'm suggesting an external RCD, fitted into the tails.

 

[fourtytwo]

Thanks for the replies about the board guy's, I had a feeling that would be the case so for now I am stuck where I am!!
Brian, I had one of those in my last house that was fed overhead from the street. This house is underground lead sheathed used as earth. By the way I don't know why the foam behind the DNO's board, looks a right mess!!

 

[timhoward]

It's really the issue that Brian mentioned - disturb it and it can be instantly a dead short.
If you post a wider-angle picture showing the tails it would help - I might consider adding an up-front RCD subject to a global IR test.

 

[westward10]

This is what I have most people think it is wood but is a digital image on a thick vinyl slat, it is very effective as it has a textured finish and bevelled edge

.

 

[fourtytwo]

What state are the ceilings in? There's more than one way of getting into the ceiling - floor void.

I would hazard a guess lathe & plaster, this is a just post war house its hard to be exact as there is heavy ceiling paper but good idea

 

[fourtytwo]

It's really the issue that Brian mentioned - disturb it and it can be instantly a dead short.
If you post a wider-angle picture showing the tails it would help - I might consider adding an up-front RCD subject to a global IR test.

Do you mean a wider angle picture inside the CU Tim ? I have something here

 

[timhoward]

Do you mean a wider angle picture inside the CU Tim ? I have something here

I missed the photo in post 35, sorry. I don't see any reason why an up-front RCD can't be fitted. It would at least mean that if a significant vibration occurs and the VIR moves you get a trip not a fire.

But even noting your comments about decor, please get a rewire under way soon!

 

[fourtytwo]

I had a nasty thought about a full blown IR test at 500V, might it finish off the VIR, as in cause it to breakdown whereas at 240Vrms its just hanging in there..... Phew what a nightmare.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think you need to step back and look at the difference between disturbing some decoration and flooring or risking the life of your family, or burning the place down, at the absolute minimum an up front RCD in the meantime.

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

 

[pc1966]

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

The 6A with VIR, probably old lights, has a brown as well.

I wonder if it has had an extension or kitchen re-fit hence partly rewired?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The B32 next to the main switch look like it may have an old faded brown, this is always assuming the latest circuits where T&E?

 

[fourtytwo]

The 6A with VIR, probably old lights, has a brown as well.

I wonder if it has had an extension or kitchen re-fit hence partly rewired?

It has been partially rewired as nearly all the sockets have pvc 2.5mm in them although mostly red/black. The left hand side of the house however that is mainly the kitchen & one upstairs bedroom is VIR in the sockets. The 32A on the left is the ring with VIR that goes upstairs, however the socket in the bedroom above is pvc!! I would love to be able to see under the floors.
Moving to the right the 6A has two VIR lighting feeds in it, the brown is from a 6A flex to a 13A socket above the CU since removed entirely, it actually fell off the wall as it was glued on
Moving to the right again the 16A used to have one of the VIR lighting feeds in it, I moved it to the left for safety.
Moving to the right again the 32A is cooker.
Moving to the right again the 6A is a spur to only a bugler alarm.
Moving to the right again the 16A is a spur to the garage that runs along the outside wall low down (Uggghhh), I believe this was added when the previous owner encountered problems powering a hot tub from the garage as they had made such a mess of the ring wiring it very nearly caught fire (there was melting & smoke damage in one socket from arcing). Hopefully now there is no hot tub and the ring is repaired I can restore the garage to it's original internal spur and remove this particular abortion.
There is an extension, single story dining room added quite a long time ago and that is all in pvc.
The few (2-3) light switches I have examined in the rest of the house are all VIR.

 

[fourtytwo]

The B32 next to the main switch look like it may have an old faded brown, this is always assuming the latest circuits where T&E?

Nope just the two 7/029 VIR's

 

[fourtytwo]

I think you need to step back and look at the difference between disturbing some decoration and flooring or risking the life of your family, or burning the place down, at the absolute minimum an up front RCD in the meantime.

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

You missed one of the browns, probably the one in the 6A with the two lighting VIR's.
It would be very nice to get an RCD fitted but I have already been trying to get a plumber for the last 2 weeks and frankly finding any professionals is very difficult. Unfortunatly we have landed from space on Mars as we are new to this area and know nobody, neighbours are also faced with similar problems.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Must be my eyesight, but I can see three cables into the B32.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I'm looking at this picture, so there are three cables into the 6A?

 

[fourtytwo]

Must be my eyesight, but I can see three cables into the B32.

There was when I first arrived, the 6A flax to the double socket was in the B32 till I moved it to the adjacent B6, are you looking at the recent picture in this thread after the move was done or in one of my other threads before the move of that wire I wonder.
EDIT
Ahh yes that is the earlier more deadly picture!
If you look at the picture in post#39 this thread that nasty piece of 6A flex has now been removed completely along with the double socket it was feeding. And as described above the 2nd VIR lighting feed has been moved from a 16A to the same 6A as the other lighting feed.
Sorry for the confusion but there were some things that needed doing immediately!
EDIT EDIT
But looking at the closeup in post#17 I think you may be right, it does look like there are 3 pieces of VIR in the 32A, I dont want to disturb it to look closer but I assume this may be a local spur connection.