NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC Complaint? Waste of time.

[someconsumer]

Honestly... I speechless at this story.

The NICEIC have just washed their hands of a valid complaint.

Ever heard of a new build property with 7x C2's, 5x C3's and 6x FI's?
I own one.
2x electricians (both Napit and NICEIC) said major problems including C2's.
EICR produced with pictures - partly because the original electrician was being a nightmare denying everything.

Original electrician did one day remedial... then vanished.

NICEIC complaint raised.

Site visit happened and NICEIC said... no C2's or C3's!!!

NICEIC just repeated verbatim the excuses (and blatant lies) of the original electrician who was there.

• outside lights not earthed? Not installed by the electrician. Must be builder.
• heating system missing earths? Not installed by the electrician. Must be builder.
• tripping system? Old hoover or heating system.
• No 2 way lights? Must be the 'smart' switches which just need radio pairing
• Thermal damage on a light switch joint? Must have happened during the EICR or someone played with it (yeah right).
• Fire rating for spotlights? No habitable room above (er... bedrooms aren't habitable???)
• Loose connections? Didn't see 'em (aka didn't look at the ones in the EICR pictures)

WTF?

Don't bother raising a complaint to the NICEIC; they're not interested in customer safety.

Forget the Platinum Promise, it's meaningless. Just promise to pay your fee on time.

Any electricians worried about complaints? Don't worry... they're not interested as long as you pay your fee.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Be interesting to see pictures of all those C2s

 

[someconsumer]

Yup a qualified electrician did that and got away with it.

 

[someconsumer]

Nice cable... be good if it was plugged into something.

 

[littlespark]

There could be a case for getting the papers involved, or your MP.....

What is the actual point of the schemes when there's just as many cowboys registered as there is not registered.
Having the badge on your van actually increases the number of jobs these rogues can do

 

[someconsumer]

There could be a case for getting the papers involved, or your MP.....

What is the actual point of the schemes when there's just as many cowboys registered as there is not registered.
Having the badge on your van actually increases the number of jobs these rogues can do

Yup - total waste of time having the badge.

How on earth can this happen in the UK in this century???

 

[LukeD]

Yup - total waste of time having the badge.

How on earth can this happen in the UK in this century???

Neighbour to me has a cowboy builder remove a boiler and fit it back on another wall .Not gas safe registered and zero paperwork. Upstairs smells gas and calls the Gas board. They come and find a tiny leak .But when questioned the owner denied having the boiler moved and the gas board did NOT say anything and just went away as the landlord turned the gas off himself. Now why the council Gas safe or the gas board etc take no action against the owner ? Its a farce . No one is checking and no one is truly bothered .But over stay a parking ticket and you get fined !! !!!

 

[Pretty Mouth]

heating system missing earths? Not installed by the electrician. Must be builder.

Often the wiring for the heating system is installed by the heating engineer.

tripping system? Old hoover or heating system.

Many things can cause this, not necessarily the building's wiring. Unless the cause has been identified, you cannot be certain that the electrician is responsible.

Fire rating for spotlights? No habitable room above (er... bedrooms aren't habitable???)

Whether fire rated downlights are required or not is complicated, it's not as simple as whether there's a habitable room above. You often get differences of opinion between electricians on this. Usually they're not needed where they don't breach a fire barrier. Typically, for a 'normal' 2 storey house, the plasterboard ceilings aren't fire barriers. Sometimes though, the plasterboard ceiling is needed to protect modern types of floor joist.

This isn't to say you don't have a valid complaint against the electrician, just that not all of it may be his fault.

Do you have a copy of the installation certificate?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Like everything ultimately it all falls back on the home owners / bill payers shoulders to pay to have the shoddy work port right

Was this way before the Scams and still this way with the Scams

I said 25 years ago when I started out in the trade , Scams are bout making themselves money , and nothing to do with standards or safety

Scams are called Scams for a reason

 

[someconsumer]

Often the wiring for the heating system is installed by the heating engineer.

Many things can cause this, not necessarily the building's wiring. Unless the cause has been identified, you cannot be certain that the electrician is responsible.

Whether fire rated downlights are required or not is complicated, it's not as simple as whether there's a habitable room above. You often get differences of opinion between electricians on this. Usually they're not needed where they don't breach a fire barrier. Typically, for a 'normal' 2 storey house, the plasterboard ceilings aren't fire barriers. Sometimes though, the plasterboard ceiling is needed to protect modern types of floor joist.

This isn't to say you don't have a valid complaint against the electrician, just that not all of it may be his fault.

Do you have a copy of the installation certificate?

Yes I do have the EIC, many electricians have questioned how a lot of the figures are the same.

I suspected the heating system may have been installed by someone else but there's a serious lack of planning if earth's are missing. The NICEIC inspector even acknowledged a lack of planning (wrong number of circuits).

This is a 4 storey modern house, we were in the ground floor kitchen with bedrooms above us and a second floor above that.
Yes noticed there's a difference of opinions, but a dismissive "no habitable rooms above" comment from the kitchen does not inspire confidence. Interestingly the EICR also found no CPC continuity on the downlights.

I am amazed how little accountability the electricians actually have here.

 

[UNG]

Honestly... I speechless at this story.

The NICEIC have just washed their hands of a valid complaint.

Ever heard of a new build property with 7x C2's, 5x C3's and 6x FI's?
I own one.
2x electricians (both Napit and NICEIC) said major problems including C2's.
EICR produced with pictures - partly because the original electrician was being a nightmare denying everything.

Original electrician did one day remedial... then vanished.

NICEIC complaint raised.

Site visit happened and NICEIC said... no C2's or C3's!!!

NICEIC just repeated verbatim the excuses (and blatant lies) of the original electrician who was there.

• outside lights not earthed? Not installed by the electrician. Must be builder.
• heating system missing earths? Not installed by the electrician. Must be builder.
• tripping system? Old hoover or heating system.
• No 2 way lights? Must be the 'smart' switches which just need radio pairing
• Thermal damage on a light switch joint? Must have happened during the EICR or someone played with it (yeah right).
• Fire rating for spotlights? No habitable room above (er... bedrooms aren't habitable???)
• Loose connections? Didn't see 'em (aka didn't look at the ones in the EICR pictures)

WTF?

Don't bother raising a complaint to the NICEIC; they're not interested in customer safety.

Forget the Platinum Promise, it's meaningless. Just promise to pay your fee on time.

Any electricians worried about complaints? Don't worry... they're not interested as long as you pay your fee.

Maybe you need to elevate the complaint to the body that gives the NICEIC it's accreditation to operate

Complaints and Appeals

UKAS welcomes feedback from its customers, stakeholders and the end users of accredited services. If you have any suggestions as to how UKAS might improve its services, please get in touch.

www.ukas.com

It would be interesting to hear how they respond

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Yes I do have the EIC, many electricians have questioned how a lot of the figures are the same.

I suspected the heating system may have been installed by someone else but there's a serious lack of planning if earth's are missing. The NICEIC inspector even acknowledged a lack of planning (wrong number of circuits).

This is a 4 storey modern house, we were in the ground floor kitchen with bedrooms above us and a second floor above that.
Yes noticed there's a difference of opinions, but a dismissive "no habitable rooms above" comment from the kitchen does not inspire confidence. Interestingly the EICR also found no CPC continuity on the downlights.

I am amazed how little accountability the electricians actually have here.

4 storey I would expect probably does need fire rated downlights.

Post a redacted copy of the EIC here, we can take a look at it for you

 

[snowhead]

Is this a new build built by a national housebuilder or by a local developer and did you pay 1 single payment to them?
If so your complaint and retribution is with the company you paid the money to.

It then doesn't matter whether the electrician, landscape gardener or painter missed out the CPC and created the C2's etc it's for the person with whom you had a contract and who received your money, to sort out.

If it went to court you can't pursue the trades as you didn't employ them.

If however it was self build or you paid trades individually then it is your problem to deal with.

Does it have NHBC cover, they're probably just as bad as any other trade organisation but the more bodies involved the better?

 

[UNG]

Like everything ultimately it all falls back on the home owners / bill payers shoulders to pay to have the shoddy work port right

Was this way before the Scams and still this way with the Scams

I said 25 years ago when I started out in the trade , Scams are bout making themselves money , and nothing to do with standards or safety

Scams are called Scams for a reason

The scams have supported the electrical industries race to the bottom for a number of years now aided and abetted by the training companies and examination bodies add to that the changes made to the Electrotechnical Assessment Specification last year that has done little to improve the situation the industry finds itself in

You have to wonder from what is seen on here what the real world figures are for poor workmanship with regard to installations, EICR's etc and how much goes unnoticed and unreported leaving installations in a potentially dangerous state

 

[HappyHippyDad]

It's all a bit confusing. When I last had my Napit assessment they were very thorough. in fact, before that when it was Stroma, they were also thorough but Napit were very thorough. It does sound like they are not interested in complaints though.

I can't understand why they act professionally when it comes to yearly assessments, but not so with complaints regarding shoddy work.

If this is your home and you are still concerned about the safety of it, I would continue asking questions on here until you feel you have more knowledge about what exactly is wrong with the house (backed up by regulations) and then take it to UKAS (or whatever the body was that was mentioned in an earlier post). Frustrating for you though and I hope you get to a position where you are happy with the house.

 

[Intoelectrics]

It's all a bit confusing. When I last had my Napit assessment they were very thorough. in fact, before that when it was Stroma, they were also thorough but Napit were very thorough. It does sound like they are not interested in complaints though.

I can't understand why they act professionally when it comes to yearly assessments, but not so with complaints regarding shoddy work.

If this is your home and you are still concerned about the safety of it, I would continue asking questions on here until you feel you have more knowledge about what exactly is wrong with the house (backed up by regulations) and then take it to UKAS (or whatever the body was that was mentioned in an earlier post). Frustrating for you though and I hope you get to a position where you are happy with the house.

Yeah, it all does seem a bit ad hoc.
My guess is that if the scheme bodies make the assessments more stringent and the electricians have to be more thorough to pass, then in general they probably feel that the vast majority are going to stay compliant throughout their jobs. Obviously there will always be those that scam the scams and offer up examples that they have either had someone else do, or actually spent the time and effort to get the odd installation right just for assessment purposes, with no regard to any other work they produce there after.

This shouldn't however excuse the scams (schemes) from following up complaints and doing something about any dodgy members that are ruining the reputation of the genuine trades people and also the scam itself!

 

[Dustydazzler]

I know a couple scam registered sparks who are rough as ---- , but they are always busy. they openly admit that they only show their scam 2 or 3 'select' jobs when it comes to their site inspection

the rest go 'under the radar' and are right old lash ups like the OP

normally these types of trades are always rushing to get as many jobs done as possible or simply just don't give a ----

scams or no scams this won't change

 

[pirate]

You all know my views on new-builds, but sadly this is what to expect these days from many mainstream builders. The problem lies in builders asking electricians (maybe) to first and second fix new builds for a totally unrealistically low price.
Just wondering if that loose wire in #4 is the same wire that was "stabbed" in #3? Not a normal method of connection, but apparently common in other countries...
Anyway, if the property has NHBC status, you could raise a complaint with them, but in my experience all you would do is add another heartache to the problem. They are useless at such stuff, have no interest whatsoever in resolving complaints, but are adept at getting their per house fee for each new property and giving out a glossy brochure to welcome the first owner to his badly built piece of sh!t...oh, and some very bad news about the build quality too...don't expect any!

 

[Last plumber]

I came across a new consumer unit install with no earth. That was put in by an NICEIC registered electrician. All the paperwork was there with text book figures but he must have had little experience and obviously hadn't tested it. If he had tested it, he would have recognized that there was an issue, hopefully.

I have met a registered gas installer who used KOS fire cement as jointing paste because it was the same colour as jointing compound and a bit sticky! He had replaced a number of multifunctional gas valves in different properties before some other gas fitter noticed what he was doing.

I have reported a builder for erecting and glazing a conservatory with the boiler flue still in use. That was direct to HSE RIDDOR. They spoke to the home owner to advise not using the boiler. No comment to the builder was made.

We can all make mistakes but the things mentioned in this thread are not mistakes in my opinion. More often than not they are incompetence. The incompetence obviously swerves its way around the inspections and exam process doesn't it? How do these people become registered and deemed competent?

At the end of the day, the system only seems to come into play when there is injury, death, damage to property etc. I suppose that's the idea because until something actually happens, nothing happened!

Frustrating for those of us who work to the book. It costs a fortune to be legal and above board. At least you can sleep at night.

 

[UNG]

Does it have NHBC cover, they're probably just as bad as any other trade organisation but the more bodies involved the better?

The NHBC run by the builders for the builders in an attempt to give themselves some credibility, looked into making a complaint to them about a previous property I owned and decided it was much cheaper to fix the problem myself than pay the fee to make a complaint with the chance of it being successful stacked against me

 

[someconsumer]

Is this a new build built by a national housebuilder or by a local developer and did you pay 1 single payment to them?
If so your complaint and retribution is with the company you paid the money to.

It then doesn't matter whether the electrician, landscape gardener or painter missed out the CPC and created the C2's etc it's for the person with whom you had a contract and who received your money, to sort out.

If it went to court you can't pursue the trades as you didn't employ them.

If however it was self build or you paid trades individually then it is your problem to deal with.

Does it have NHBC cover, they're probably just as bad as any other trade organisation but the more bodies involved the better?

Purchased from a new builder (not a national one or self build).

The NICEIC essentially blamed the builder.

4 storey I would expect probably does need fire rated downlights.

Post a redacted copy of the EIC here, we can take a look at it for you

Here's a sample

 

[littlespark]

The only things that stand out on the test sheet are;

Smoke detectors should also be listed at the top as equipment that can be damaged through insulation resistance test.
Max Zs should be listed on every circuit, not just rfc
22 points on a lighting circuit. Counted every single bulb by the looks of it.
Likewise, 18 points on kitchen ring. Must be a big kitchen… I think I’ve only got 8
Two large loads (cooker and oven) next to each other in the board. Thinking heat disapation.
No mention of SPD

Some of the items shown earlier above can be picked up as snagging faults, but it’s the basics such as bonding, appropriate sized mcbs and cables, general workmanship that are indicators of bodgery

 

[Pretty Mouth]

The only things that stand out on the test sheet are;

Smoke detectors should also be listed at the top as equipment that can be damaged through insulation resistance test.
Max Zs should be listed on every circuit, not just rfc
22 points on a lighting circuit. Counted every single bulb by the looks of it.
Likewise, 18 points on kitchen ring. Must be a big kitchen… I think I’ve only got 8
Two large loads (cooker and oven) next to each other in the board. Thinking heat disapation.
No mention of SPD

Some of the items shown earlier above can be picked up as snagging faults, but it’s the basics such as bonding, appropriate sized mcbs and cables, general workmanship that are indicators of bodgery

Looks like he didn't fill in max permitted Zs, and has then put the ring final details in the wrong columns.

I'm actually considering deleting the max permitted zs column from my paperwork, a pointless waste of time IMO, restating what BS7671 says. Number of points served, and type of wiring has already been shown the door.

There's nothing in the paperwork that concerns me, the values all look about right.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Certs are over-complicated imo , a commissioning cert really only needs the actual test results and thats it imo

You can then do a basic fuse board chart with wiring type , fuse type and points served etc

I have always found certs overly fussy and way too over the top

 

[brianmoooore]

1 x C2 and 1 x C1 discovered in the new build my son bought last year (so far).

 

[Midwest]

As @snowhead said, your complaint is with the developer, not the electrical contractor, unless you employed then directly. NHBC will refer you back to the Developer, to correct faults. Have you raised this on your snagging list?

 

[UNG]

I'm actually considering deleting the max permitted zs column from my paperwork, a pointless waste of time IMO, restating what BS7671 says. Number of points served, and type of wiring has already been shown the door.

Given that the max permitted zs column is on the model forms in BS7671complete with a footnote as is the type of wiring why would you delete it, if you take that column out why not take out the maximum disconnection time
You appear to be just making it difficult for someone to review your EICR's IMO while issuing documentation not compliant with BS7671

 

[westward10]

Certification does not have to follow the suggested format in BS7671, Appendix 6 is informative only.

 

[nicebutdim]

You all know my views on new-builds, but sadly this is what to expect these days from many mainstream builders. The problem lies in builders asking electricians (maybe) to first and second fix new builds for a totally unrealistically low price.

Builders are offering rates that these sparks are prepared to accept. The blame lies with the guy who accepts a job they know can not be completed to a satisfactory standard for the agreed price. No spark is forced to accept any job at any rate and, given the recent boom, I can not understand why they would put themselves in such a position - the only conclusion I can arrive at is that they don't care about working to acceptable standards.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Given that the max permitted zs column is on the model forms in BS7671complete with a footnote as is the type of wiring why would you delete it, if you take that column out why not take out the maximum disconnection time
You appear to be just making it difficult for someone to review your EICR's IMO while issuing documentation not compliant with BS7671

I hear what you're saying @UNG , however, these are my arguments against:

Type of wiring hasn't been in the regs for many years, until this latest amendment. Same with number of points served. I have never found myself wishing I had info for either on a cert, the former being obvious to anyone, and the latter is open to interpretation. If you take the definition of 'point' from bs7671, then things such as regular light switches aren't counted.

Max Zs is AFAIK totally dependent on the protective device, and the disconnection time. With these items of data already on the form, there can only be one answer, that taken from BS7671, anyone reviewing the form should IMO check against this, not blindly accept something written by the inspector. I take your point about the footnote, but in 5 years I have never had reason to even consider it.

The above help no one IMO. Including it doesn't help make safe installations, it just wastes my time and diverts my attention from the job in hand.

 

[MG201]

The scams have supported the electrical industries race to the bottom for a number of years now aided and abetted by the training companies and examination bodies add to that the changes made to the Electrotechnical Assessment Specification last year that has done little to improve the situation the industry finds itself in

You have to wonder from what is seen on here what the real world figures are for poor workmanship with regard to installations, EICR's etc and how much goes unnoticed and unreported leaving installations in a potentially dangerous state

Got to remember it’s people like this that promoted the 3 week wonder domestic installer accreditation that allows this type of work to be carried out by qualified people ( with electrical trainee ) same as the CITB AND THE LEVY FOR APPRENTICES AND ALL OTHER ACCREDITED BODIES ITS ALL ABOUT SIGNATURES AND FEES , AND NOT FORGETTING THE LOBBYING FOR NEW REGS SO THAT THE COMPANIES THEY ARE ON CAN SELL NEW HARDWARE EG AFDD’s surge protection metal boards etc etc ( not saying these are not needed but defo not all essential to safety imo )

 

[someconsumer]

Looks like he didn't fill in max permitted Zs, and has then put the ring final details in the wrong columns.

I'm actually considering deleting the max permitted zs column from my paperwork, a pointless waste of time IMO, restating what BS7671 says. Number of points served, and type of wiring has already been shown the door.

There's nothing in the paperwork that concerns me, the values all look about right.

As @snowhead said, your complaint is with the developer, not the electrical contractor, unless you employed then directly. NHBC will refer you back to the Developer, to correct faults. Have you raised this on your snagging list?

Yes.

All communication and reports (snagging and EICR) went to the builder.
One day was spent on remedial electrical work, then no further updates.
Electrics still clearly have issues e.g. intermittent lights.

After three months chasing without success I raised the complaint with the NICEIC.

 

[Midwest]

@someconsumer, you might want to go on this forum on how you deal with snagging and complaints via. Its pretty much a one person forum, and he's not a great lover of new builds, Developers and the NHBC. But, he does know his stuff, on them.

 

[impish15]

@someconsumer what was the outcome of this in the end?

 

[jonezzpeterr]

What is the actual point of the schemes when there's just as many cowboys registered as there is not registered.

 

[DPG]

What is the actual point of the schemes when there's just as many cowboys registered as there is not registered.

Where are those figures from?

 

[brianmoooore]

Where are those figures from?

An unsubstantiated guess I expect, but not wildly out going by my observations over the last few years.

 

[JBW175]

What is the actual point of the schemes when there's just as many cowboys registered as there is not registered.

What a strange 1st post for someone in Texas…

 

[someconsumer]

@someconsumer what was the outcome of this in the end?

The NICEIC have finally agreed there are serious issues but will take no action.

None of the work has been put right and the electrician is free to trade without any repercussions.
This is because the electrician claims he didn't do all the work (some items missing from EIC) or 3rd parties interfered.

NB the NICEIC complaints process excludes missing certificates and they claim the Platinum Promise does not apply because the electrician is still trading.

 

[Initforthemoney]

Do you guys have the same assessor every year?

I had my assessment end of last year and when i had my email booking the date, it had someone who i had never heard of or had before.

I used to be with Elecsa and they were great but this guy was from NIC and was a totally unpleasant individual, even to the point of being the same in front of my customer on the site visit.