Part P training . It must be stopped

[Gary Soulsby]

As most of you are aware part p was introduced in 2005. This has lead to a huge surge in people becoming part p registered installers. This is not the issue although anyone who works on electrical installations should have "sufficient" knowledge and training as to minimise risk.

The approved appretiship does this as anyone wanting to become qualified has to obtain level 2&3 technical cert and level 3 NVQ as well as sit the AM2 test.

Currently company's are offering training to become an approved domestic installer in 5 DAYS!!
That isn't even enough time to get someone entirely used to useing the regs book never mind classified as "competent"

In the end of the day these people are taking the easy option, of which I understand but that should not come at the price of safety and the loss of work of approved electricians that have spent 3-5 years training.

Find attacked the link to a petition stop the training of these under qualified "electricians"

Petition: Scrap Part P, someone with 5 days experience is not safe to work on electrics - https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207481/sponsors/new?token=xUnMdAVdRq7xSzVHb68h

 

[Spoon]

Welcome to the forum Gary.

Are you against Part P, 5 day courses or both.

I think (personally) that Part P was initially a good idea. It was designed so stop non -competent people from doing certain electrical work round the house.
Unfortunately it has now turned into a money making scheme, like quite a lot of things, and these schemes just care about money and not safety.

 

[Midwest]

I think you thread & petition could be construed as misleading.

A Google search of 'Part P Training' gives various training packages related to that, but predominately C&G 2393-10, varying from 1-5 days. This C&G course is meant to give a familiarisation to Part P Building regs, and how an electrical installation fits in with and affects other building regs. Non of these training establishments, the ones I looked at, suggest this course will train you as a competent electrician.

I also looked at your petition. I'm not sure how these things work, but other than you link, it doesn't state what you agreeing or signing, other than 'Gary Steven Soulsby’s petition'.

I'm somewhat against short training packages in general, although there are several members of this forum, that have been required for various reasons to go down this road. From what they have contributed in threads & posts, I can't dispute their competency.

Perhaps you should reconsider your wording, and be more specific, than just referring to Part P training. Just my opinion.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Apologies I should have been a little more specific. The link is to the petition and it explains about the training of "domestic Installer" it for some reason will not show the details until it has 5 people backing. that's my bad I did not know there link would do that.

Domestic Installer status is what I was referring to. Part P as a whole is important but the training company's that are offering these courses are misleading people.

It has reached a point where people looking to have work done are asking if you are Part P registered like that's the equivalent of Gas Safe.

With regards to short courses, I am against them. to say that someone is competent after even 12-18 weeks of training is wrong. what this is resulting in is people being mislead when requesting work done in there house. Disadvantaging electricians that have completed a recognized apprentiship.

Domestic installer is not an Electrician

 

[Spoon]

Domestic installer is not an Electrician

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

the Oxford dictionary defines pilot as- a person who operates the controls of an aircraft, especially as a job.
so under that reasoning if I run in the cock pit and press a button (without knowing what I am doing) I am now a pilot?

It is not enough to say that MOST of them know there limitations, deciding that you think you know how it works wont save the family when the house burns down.

If your taking shortcuts to your training then your more likely to take shortcuts on your job.

The Very minimum should be two years of college so that you understand electrical science and theory . Someone thinking they know what there doing should be the difference between life or death.

 

[Spoon]

the Oxford dictionary defines pilot as- a person who operates the controls of an aircraft, especially as a job.
so under that reasoning if I run in the cock pit and press a button (without knowing what I am doing) I am now a pilot?

Nicely twisted there mate..

It is not enough to say that MOST of them know there limitations, deciding that you think you know how it works wont save the family when the house burns down.

Some 'electricians' with 5 years of collage don't know their limitations... (See how I twisted that.. )

If your taking shortcuts to your training then your more likely to take shortcuts on your job.

The Very minimum should be two years of college so that you understand electrical science and theory . Someone thinking they know what there doing should be the difference between life or death.

Some people don't have the option of going to collage... Doesn't mean they will do a rubbish job.

How about doing a proper job with the petition form, so people know what they are signing or agreeing to.

 

[FatAlan]

I believe the issue is the false representations made by a number of training providers who in a way are being aided and abetted by the comp person schemes. Even the inspection and testing qualifications are meaningless unless you get hands on experience on someone else’s installation supervised by someone who’s done it before. If the government was serious about getting more trained Electricians they would be providing more incentives to companies in respect of apprenticeships .... not that I know what the current situation is. Certainly from what I’ve experienced, C&G do not police well enough those teaching their exams and like all exam systems since the advent of the computer, too much reliance is placed on computer multi-guess exams rather than written or witnessed practical excerises.

 

[kenny7askew]

"It has reached a point where people looking to have work done are asking if you are Part P registered like that's the equivalent of Gas Safe "

No one as ever asked me

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Some 'electricians' with 5 years of collage don't know their limitations... (See how I twisted that.. )

This may be the case but with the knowledge of Electrical science and theory they will at least know how to make it safe. I'm guessing by your reply you are a DI, I don't have anything against the people I just think it is unsafe to let you decide what you deem yourself competent to work on.

 

[Squid]

What is the difference between a DI a Electrical Trainee a Part P and fully apprenticed Sparks, out of curiosity?

 

[Spoon]

This may be the case but with the knowledge of Electrical science and theory they will at least know how to make it safe. I'm guessing by your reply you are a DI, I don't have anything against the people I just think it is unsafe to let you decide what you deem yourself competent to work on.

You make it sound like a DI is a bad thing... I'm not saying what my job title is... It could be DI... The people who know me know what I do.
I like to think I'm a bit more broad minded and not paint everyone with the same brush, mate.

 

[Pete999]

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

According to the Oxford dictionary an electrician is "A person who installs and maintains electrical equipment"... Therefore a Domestic Installer is an electrician.

I can't see anyone wanting to sign a petition when there is no explanation against it. You must be able to change this....

There are quite a few people in this forum who have done short courses. When you talk to these people most know their limitations and are not muppets.... They do not do work that is way above them.

I have to respectfully disagree with your analogy, or the Oxford Dictionary's, to be correct, that anyone who operates and maintains, and installs electrical equipment is an Electrician, this would make Meter fitters, kitchen installers, lamp changers ( yes they are still employed to do just that) would be classed as Electricians wouldn't it?
I personally think that what the OP was getting at, and I could be wrong, but that's my takes, is that, the "ubiquitous Part P qualification" is a course thought up by the Cash hungry Training providers, to con the ill informed that that qualification will make them Electricians, or Domestic installers, they are different animals, otherwise there wouldn't be Domestic Installers.
Unfortunately the General Public have been lulled into a false sense of security asking the ever ready question, "are you Part P qualified" When we all should know Part P is a building regulation. I will add as a caveat that not all short course qualifying people are, or should not be classed as incompetent, or bad Tradespeople just because they have chosen, or maybe circumstances have forced them to take that route to become qualified, not at all, there are some very competent people about, some are members of this Forum, there are those thave taken the Part P and PA Testing qualifications and are operating as Electricians, you know that as well as I do, I have a passion for this industry, and to see it decline in this way saddens me, I wish the OP good luck with his Petition and I hope someone in authority takes notice, it will be about time if they do, although looking at the way the Government has reacted to the accident that cause this clamor for change, I won't hold my breath.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

You make it sound like a DI is a bad thing... I'm not saying what my job title is... It could be DI... The people who know me know what I do.
I like to think I'm a bit more broad minded and not paint everyone with the same brush, mate.

I wasn't asking you to answer I was merely making an observation as you seem to be very defensive. I am aware that not all DI's work unsafely but it should not be open to interpretation. The person ordering the Work should be aware of the Difference between Approved Electrician and Domestic installer. I am well aware that not all people can afford to take apprentice routes due to the disgustingly bad pay they offer for 3 years.

In the end of the day we work in a field that is incredibly dangerous and there should be tighter restrictions on training as they have with the Gas industry.

Domestic installers scope is a very grey area, iv heard of them working in Pubs that I would classify as Commercial just because there is a bedroom on the top floor. Rented accommodation is another example where technically that is being used as commercial use.

Don't take it personally but I think there should be separate regulatory bodies for Approved electricians and DI's as electrical design and installation should be done by someone who knows the theory. I am not saying everyone that is DI should loose there ability to do there job , they should have the option to complete theory and be assessed on it then they could get status of Approved after so many years.

 

[Spoon]

Hi @Pete999 . The Oxford dictionary thing was cause of the OP saying "Domestic installer is not an Electrician". My personal opinion is that a DI is an electrician.
As I said before, there are some who are DI's on this forum. Most are really nice people who know their limitations.
Yes the industry has declined. It's been declining for decades.
What we need need to stop is the 'Cash hungry Training providers' but I can't see that happening. Truthful proper training is what is needed.

 

[Midwest]

With 3 votes as of this time, and without clarification as to what you are signing, I don't think is going to get more votes, at the moment.

As regards defining or whether we should define what is an electrician, your competent in the field of electrickary you are involved. You might start off as a jack of all trades, but pretty much settle into, domestic, commercial & industrial. Keeping it broadly in those zones. As to whether you should be trained into just one of those genre's, I suppose is the debate.

 

[Spoon]

Hi @Gary Soulsby. I do know what you are saying. We all have our limitations. It just sounds very pompous that DI's are not electricians.
Yes I do sound defensive, its just the way I come across. Not a lot I can do about it. I do like to speak my mind.

 

[Pete999]

Hi @Pete999 . The Oxford dictionary thing was cause of the OP saying "Domestic installer is not an Electrician". My personal opinion is that a DI is an electrician.
As I said before, there are some who are DI's on this forum. Most are really nice people who know their limitations.
Yes the industry has declined. It's been declining for decades.
What we need need to stop is the 'Cash hungry Training providers' but I can't see that happening. Truthful proper training is what is needed.

Well said Spoon, I for one hope your hopes come to fruition, the trouble, I think, is that there are far to many people, in positions of, I wont say authority, but I'm sure you get my drift, people with influence, is a better way of describing them, who hold a niche position, and are able to influence the rule makers, you know who I mean don't

Hi @Gary Soulsby. I do know what you are saying. We all have our limitations. It just sounds very pompous that DI's are not electricians.
Yes I do sound defensive, its just the way I come across. Not a lot I can do about it. I do like to speak my mind.

Yes we know Spoon

 

[Spoon]

I'm a nice guy really @Pete999 .... OK, yes.... I'm an ---...

 

[Gary Soulsby]

If they where indeed Electricians would that be applied to the title? Domestic Electrician

 

[Pete999]

I'm a nice guy really @Pete999 .... OK, yes.... I'm an ---...

Don't put yourself down mate, we all like speak our mind sometimes, trouble is I can go far to far and get myself in the Mire, not often but sometimes.

 

[Pete999]

If they where indeed Electricians would that be applied to the title? Domestic Electrician

I'm afraid the title of Electrician has changed, we have Domestic Installer, Domestic, Commercial, Industrial, and now Solar Electricians, I suppose the later ones did their training with Scotty on the Starship Enterprise.?

 

[FatAlan]

Gary. What are the exact details of what you are petitioning parliament for? The link just takes me to a sign in section. I’d like to see the petition details first.

 

[GBDamo]

I think that the scope of what Part P trained domestic installers are allowed to do needs clarifying and probably restricting but, as the BYB only requires a person be competent, ambiguity is built into the system.

For example if, as a DI, your work involves carrying out the same, even complex, task on every job then the training provided by Part P courses can prove sufficient to do the job safely and compliantly.

However if your job requires you to carry out many, even simple, tasks then it is almost impossible for the short courses to provide sufficient knowledge and experience.

In the first instance I would argue you can comfortably demonstrate your competence and in doing so satisfy the requirements of the BYB but in the second you would be very hard pushed to do so.

Rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water I'd say the system need clarification and tightening of the scope.

 

[Spoon]

Don't put yourself down mate, we all like speak our mind sometimes, trouble is I can go far to far and get myself in the Mire, not often but sometimes.

Was just having a laugh mate. I'm fantastic really..... That's why everyone loves me...

 

[Spoon]

I'm afraid the title of Electrician has changed, we have Domestic Installer, Domestic, Commercial, Industrial, and now Solar Electricians, I suppose the later ones did their training with Scotty on the Starship Enterprise.?

Well said mate.
I'd rather get trained on Starship Voyager.. 'Seven of Nine' can teach me any day....

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Gary. What are the exact details of what you are petitioning parliament for? The link just takes me to a sign in section. I’d like to see the petition details first.

It's is regarding the training involved with part p. Specifically the really short 6 day delivery . I will show I hope when over 5 sign . If not I will repost it when the petition goes live

 

[Midwest]

When they stopped handing out apprenticeships like there was no tomorrow, things have had to change. I don't see a problem with someone going on a domestic installers course, if there's such a thing, just to install stuff in kitchens & bathrooms. In an idea world, we would like to back to the days of the 1970's, when you could walk into any company and get an apprenticeship for free. That's no longer the case, and training has to be reflective in that.

If we can no longer afford aircraft carriers a plenty, then apprenticeships are going to be scarce.

 

[The Ghost]

I don't quite understand what your agenda is however your posit that Part P must be stopped is nonsense. No one gets to go onto a competent scheme register with Part P. That is a one day course on building regulations that essentially says if you drill a hole stop it up with either/and/or fireproof/soundproof/weather proof gump.
To be frank wiring a house is not rocket science. Wiring a house to craftsman level takes some years of experience which no course can teach you except the university of life. The science is acknowledged as "basic science" which it is. Are you from some course that wants to do away with the opposition, what is your beef with it all?

 

[Gary Soulsby]

I don't quite understand what your agenda is however your posit that Part P must be stopped is nonsense. No one gets to go onto a competent scheme register with Part P. That is a one day course on building regulations that essentially says if you drill a hole stop it up with either/and/or fireproof/soundproof/weather proof gump.
To be frank wiring a house is not rocket science. Wiring a house to craftsman level takes some years of experience which no course can teach you except the university of life. The science is acknowledged as "basic science" which it is. Are you from some course that wants to do away with the opposition, what is your beef with it all?

Your telling me 23days is sufficient to be able to sign off there own work in a domestic premises ?

Domestic Electrical Installer TS4U-25: Silver - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/domestic-electrician-installer-ts4u25

 

[Octopus]

The "gravy" train left the station a long time ago and nothing will stop it now.

The problem, as I see it, isn't Part P .................its the total absence of anyone or anybody actually doing anything to uphold standards AND holding people accountable for dodgy work ........... whether it be electrics or any other trade...

 

[The Ghost]

Your telling me 23day

Are you sure you are quoting the right person? How did you divine I said that to you? I am not telling you anything I asked you a question or two. Try re-reading what you just quoted.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Are you sure you are quoting the right person? How did you divine I said that to you? I am not telling you anything I asked you a question or two. Try re-reading what you just quoted.

NICEIC actually does have a certified scheme for someone with these qualifications . Theoretically you can do 23 days total training then set up your own company doing work in people's houses on your own. Any electrician should find this desturbing that people's houses where there family sleep could have potentially been wired and certified by someone who didn't have a clue less than a month ago.

I personally think it's wrong and anyone who works on electrical installations should as I said have sufficient knowledge as to prevent risk. Admitidly domestic is not rocket science but the slightest mistake can have drastic consiquences .

Electricians are paid for what they know not what they do

 

[The Ghost]

You still have not answered my question. I often cite the 18 year old who has finished a three year course and does not have a clue how to even wire up a socket properly. Courses do not an electrician make! Experience allied with the knowledge gleaned on courses make an electrician. Experience being the key to a good rounded electrician. Courses can only teach so much. For instance on testing and inspection and commissioning; You can learn text book testing pass your practical and go out into the real world. You may get for instance on an RFC test 0.5 0/0.5 r1 rn then 5 ohms on r2. What are you to make of this??? A course will not teach this, anomalous results are the acid test of an electrician and how it is dealt with and understood. Getting rid of Part P will in no way even begin to deal with this aspect of training. What the answer is I don't know and I am sure the person who thinks of it will be rich.

 

[Toneyz]

What does the C & G 2393-10 teach you?

 

[Pete999]

What does the C & G 2393-10 teach you?

After a day you become a "Part P Installer" da da that is after they have spent a day telling you something you should know already, after spending £180 of your hard earned, so you get there at 08:30 chat till 10:00 10:30 TILL 13:00 Lunch till 14:00 till 15:30 for tea finish say at 17:00, money for old rope in my book.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Part P Electrical Course for Electrical Installation - https://www.electricianacademy.co.uk/partp-electrical-course

Advertising that Part P can work on shops and pubs .

 

[Octopus]

Advertising that Part P can work on shops and pubs .

The reality is that there is absolutely nothing stopping any tom, dick or abdul doing any form of building work ............. let alone sparking

 

[Stspark]

The petition should be against the schemes (niceic, napit, stroma) for giving accreditation for the title 'domestic installer' and in doing so creating a market for short courses from various training providers (who are no doubt linked to the schemes themselves!).
Ultimately nothing will change, until we electricians stop paying the annual fee's to the schemes.

 

[Des 56]

I think the petitions era has passed,nobody will give two monkeys about any petition,if a select committee can be ignored and dismissed with ease,what chance a petition


Now,my wish list

Abolish that part P registered nonsense ,no more worries about the Part P qualified this and that

Open up all domestic installation work unrestricted to whoever believes they can do that work
(It does not really require a full blown electrician to work on domestic wiring,a decent head and pair of hands and its well within most peoples capability)

The government could make compulsory an inspection report for all new build and house sales like they were intending

We could campaign to get a register of electricians who can do these reports,possibly on behalf of a Government agency which has set fees for these inspections

Heres to dreaming I suppose

 

[Midwest]

After a day you become a "Part P Installer" da da that is after they have spent a day telling you something you should know already, after spending £180 of your hard earned, so you get there at 08:30 chat till 10:00 10:30 TILL 13:00 Lunch till 14:00 till 15:30 for tea finish say at 17:00, money for old rope in my book.

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

 

[Pete999]

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

Part P City & Guilds 2393 1 Day Course - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/part-p-2393

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I know several people who have gone down the supposed Electrical Trainee route, one is a former finance broker in the city and lost nearly everything in 2008 when it all went belly up. He did a group of courses in 2010 with one of these training providers and is a DI with NICEIC
He knows his limitations, but having worked with him he is methodical, safety conscious, sits down and does his calculations for voltage drop and cable loads etc.. His work is of a very high and good standard.
Another person is a fellow ex serviceman who after having some mental health difficulties after Iraq. Struggled and had his DI training paid for with one of the training warehouses, he was a helicopter technician in the forces and again his work on electrics is excellent, he is very good at testing and inspecting and methodical and safe in finding faults.
Both of these guys I would sooner have working on my own home or my families than supposed time served apprentices or people with all the paper but no brain cells. Neither could go down the apprenticeship and 3 years of training route, Both know their limitations and work safely within it keeping them and customers safe.
Qualifications in themselves mean nothing, experience helps, but there are many competent DI's out there with little proper experience who i would sooner see working than so called qualified electricians doing poor and unsafe work.
Part P in itself is well intended but a part p building regs course alone wont get you in one of the schemes , we joke about how easy it is, but if you speak to the regional assessors they do refuse quite a few applications to the schemes. Its just nobody ever admits to it and carry on doing jobs regardless!!
Overall its made the industry safer! as the Electrical Trainee's are at least supervised even if minimally and that is better than somebody doing whatever with no oversight. Yes, you get some working beyond their skills and ability but these are far out weighed by the people doing things according to regs safely and appropriately.
I think anybody paying around 3k for a group of courses plus more for testing kit and tools to enter the industry as a DI doesnt do it lightly, thats quite an outlay for somebody to be a cowboy or somebody who doesn't care about their work and safety.

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Actually they are quite intense. The problem is that there’s no proper evaluation of skills learnt (or not).

I could equally come back with apprenticeships basically being 1 year of getting the tea and tartan paint and two years doing the donkey work, whilst learning a bit.

Neither my description, or yours is accurate.

It’s all down to the (ironically) the testing of the course member imho. They let anyone “pass”.

Your telling me 23days is sufficient to be able to sign off there own work in a domestic premises ?

Domestic Electrical Installer TS4U-25: Silver - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/domestic-electrician-installer-ts4u25

After a day you become a "Part P Installer" da da that is after they have spent a day telling you something you should know already, after spending £180 of your hard earned, so you get there at 08:30 chat till 10:00 10:30 TILL 13:00 Lunch till 14:00 till 15:30 for tea finish say at 17:00, money for old rope in my book.

 

[cprfenom]

In fairness they do not let everyone pass. I agree with @Spoon that its being miss sold.

Knowing your own limitations and knowing when to admit you dont know something is key

Experience is everything!

 

[ipf]

Actually they are quite intense. The problem is that there’s no proper evaluation of skills learnt (or not).

I could equally come back with apprenticeships basically being 1 year of getting the tea and tartan paint and two years doing the donkey work, whilst learning a bit.

Hey! Even if I did plenty donkey work, I was wiping lead joints in my first year.......From what you say you'd think I could barely wipe my ar....

 

[ipf]

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

Refund refused. Reason. Cheek for enrolling!

 

[Midwest]

Part P Electrical Course for Electrical Installation - https://www.electricianacademy.co.uk/partp-electrical-course

Advertising that Part P can work on shops and pubs .

That particular one is misleading.

 

[Midwest]

Part P City & Guilds 2393 1 Day Course - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/part-p-2393

Yep that's a 2393-10.

 

[Toneyz]

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

Midwest as by what you have posted that you have been on this 2393-10 (Part P) course as I have no experience of this what was taught and over how many days.