PAT Tester broken but i can use megger?

[chris day]

Hello guys

my seaward PAT tester has given up the ghost, i have some small PAT jobs coming up and was thinking short term of being able to just use my multi function meter.

R2 test on class 1 equipment using low voltage ohm meter
Insulation resistance testing with leads

Trying to think what other limitations i have by just using my multi function test instrument?

 

[The Ghost]

I know I can use my Kewtech DL65 for PAT. But I have to switch it into PAT mode. Does the megger have that?

 

[PEG]

I'm not certain what the current PAT testing consists of,but if the tests are possible using a calibrated MFT,i would assume it was OK.

There are earth continuity,polarity and IR tests,so an MFT would cover these. It is not a statutory requirement,so as long as any certification you provide,matches the testing you have done,all is well.

I was told.a long time ago,that you could offer PAT testing,as a purely visual only examination,providing the certification,stated this. Obviously,this does not example due diligence,too thoroughly,but would be legal.

 

[westward10]

The only thing your mft won't do is the high current earth bond test. You would also have to link out the live and neutral for the IR and why not invest in one of these.
https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/kewtech-portable-appliance-tester-adaptor-box/1434g

 

[DPG]

OP - do the items you are checking actually need any testing? Most small appliances these days are class II and may only need inspection. Remember, the phrase 'PAT Testing' is misleading.

Also bear in mind the HSE guidance on the inspection/testing of equipment in low risk environments - there is a document available.

A lot of people are surprised about how little actual testing is needed.

 

[mhar]

As Westward 10 saysyou will miss the high current earth bond test, you will spend ages pratting about trying to get good continuity.
There are frequently Seaward Supernova Plus's for sale on ebay for ridiculous money, I bought another the other day for £25.22 delivered. Cracking tester if a bit chunky

 

[DPG]

If it's only a short term fix he may not need the high current earth bond test.

 

[chris day]

I have this exact device.. ill dig it out the testing bag

 

[oracle]

Many handheld PAT testers only produce 200mA “Soft” earth bond current. BTW, Portable Appliance Tester refers to the test meter being portable not the appliances ranging from handheld to fixed!

 

[DPG]

Many handheld PAT testers only produce 200mA “Soft” earth bond current. BTW, Portable Appliance Tester refers to the test meter being portable not the appliances ranging from handheld to fixed!

To be accurate, PAT is a non existent phrase. The correct terminology is ISITEE.

Portable is irrelevant as you say.

 

[westward10]

I find the abbreviation ISITEE mildly irritating

 

[Pete999]

I find the abbreviation ISITEE mildly irritating

Why is that Westy, I find PAT Testing very irritable Testing twice, Portable Appliance Testing, Testing, almost as bad as "I Megered the install", when we all should know Megger is a Trade name NOT a test procedure.

 

[westward10]

I find abbreviations irritating in general but the appearance of ISITEE is particularly annoying.

 

[Pete999]

I find abbreviations irritating in general but the appearance of ISITEE is particularly annoying.

Yeah know what you mean Mate, unfortunately that's what we are given to work with, annoying for those who know the difference.

 

[DPG]

I know what you mean westy, but it's got to be better than PAT testing. That phrase perpetuates the myth that it is only portable appliances, and that is only about testing - when we all know that inspection is the big part of it.

 

[telectrix]

i find it extremely annoying coz i never can get the "I"s , "T"'s, and "E"s in the right order. all the right letters, but.......

 

[Pete999]

I know what you mean westy, but it's got to be better than PAT testing. That phrase perpetuates the myth that it is only portable appliances, and that is only about testing - when we all know that inspection is the big part of it.

Yeah very good point, When I worked for the DOE/PSA we had a testing regime, "Testing Power consuming Apparatus" all those years ago and someone got it right.

 

[DPG]

i find it extremely annoying coz i never can get the "I"s , "T"'s, and "E"s in the right order. all the right letters, but.......

I'll be honest tel, I had a quick peek at the COP to make sure I got it right!

 

[ruston]

I find the abbreviation ISITEE mildly irritating

I agree. It sounds like a burst couch...

 

[static zap]

..appearance of ISITEE is particularly annoying.

Apples new iSettee , where to sit while applying labels , to a conveyor of untested / un-inspected ,63p a shot appliances . _NOT a Money spinner_
..But get TV rights for game show..

 

[Lucien Nunes]

How will you be measuring differential leakage and touch leakage?

 

[multimick]

don't think my megger pat 120 measures that anyway ?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

But the PAT120 does offer a substitute leakage test, which can't be replicated using an MFT. I wouldn't claim to have completed a PAT without at least some type of leakage test. Maybe I'm old-fashioned.

 

[R-fur]

I thought PAT testers were introduced so that semi-skilled guys could test appliances rather than using an electrician. The testers have a lot of nice extras and can make recording the results easier. But any decent electrician with a insulation and continuity tester plus a note book can test appliances.

 

[DPG]

I thought PAT testers were introduced so that semi-skilled guys could test appliances rather than using an electrician. The testers have a lot of nice extras and can make recording the results easier. But any decent electrician with a insulation and continuity tester plus a note book can test appliances.

Except for leakage tests as mentioned by Lucien.

 

[oracle]

Well, the only tests required on the certificate are continuity of the earth bond / CPC, Continuity of line and neutral (linked) and Insulation Resistance between all conductors. If you must, leakage current can be measured across the appliance insulation using the insulation tester. Touch current measurements are not at all clear in the code of practice and are unusual tests in normal circumstances anyway.

 

[Risteard]

My biggest issue would be with the 200mA continuity test. 25A will prove the cpc far more effectively (or nuke it if it's hanging on by a strand or two).

 

[Simon47]

I'd been thinking about making an adapter a bit like that - but with an extra socket for an earth continuity lead and a switch. Idea being that the switch would take care of the different connections needed - so the MFT could stay connected, the extra lead connected to exposed conductive parts for Class I continuity & Class II IR test, and only the switch would need to be moved (plus the mode switch on the MFT).
Otherwise, yes an MFT can be used, it's just a bit of a faff having to reconfigure the leads all the time for the different tests.

My biggest issue would be with the 200mA continuity test. 25A will prove the cpc far more effectively (or nuke it if it's hanging on by a strand or two).

How many battery powered PA testers do that ? At my last job (in IT), the boss thought it might be a good idea to get a tester and offer it as a service to customers. My response was that I wasn't going to be the only person "qualified" to do it, and no-one else actually bothered. I borrowed it and used it for my own requirements more than it got used at work (I'd test stuff that came across my desk) Anyway, the spec for it wasn't for much current - only something like 200mA IIRC.

 

[Risteard]

How many battery powered PA testers do that ?

I prefer the mains-powered PAT Testers. Mine can be connected to either a 230V or a 110V supply.

 

[oracle]

I'd been thinking about making an adapter a bit like that - but with an extra socket for an earth continuity lead and a switch. Idea being that the switch would take care of the different connections needed - so the MFT could stay connected, the extra lead connected to exposed conductive parts for Class I continuity & Class II IR test, and only the switch would need to be moved (plus the mode switch on the MFT).
Otherwise, yes an MFT can be used, it's just a bit of a faff having to reconfigure the leads all the time for the different tests.

How many battery powered PA testers do that ? At my last job (in IT), the boss thought it might be a good idea to get a tester and offer it as a service to customers. My response was that I wasn't going to be the only person "qualified" to do it, and no-one else actually bothered. I borrowed it and used it for my own requirements more than it got used at work (I'd test stuff that came across my desk) Anyway, the spec for it wasn't for much current - only something like 200mA IIRC.

If 200 mA is good enough for installation continuity testing, why not not for appliances?

 

[Risteard]

If 200 mA is good enough for installation continuity testing, why not not for appliances?

The flex in an appliance would typically take more abuse than fixed wiring embedded in the walls or in a conduit/trunking to be fair. It's not really a like comparison. Although traditionally conduit joints would have been tested at these higher currents.

 

[Pete999]

I'd been thinking about making an adapter a bit like that - but with an extra socket for an earth continuity lead and a switch. Idea being that the switch would take care of the different connections needed - so the MFT could stay connected, the extra lead connected to exposed conductive parts for Class I continuity & Class II IR test, and only the switch would need to be moved (plus the mode switch on the MFT).
Otherwise, yes an MFT can be used, it's just a bit of a faff having to reconfigure the leads all the time for the different tests.

How many battery powered PA testers do that ? At my last job (in IT), the boss thought it might be a good idea to get a tester and offer it as a service to customers. My response was that I wasn't going to be the only person "qualified" to do it, and no-one else actually bothered. I borrowed it and used it for my own requirements more than it got used at work (I'd test stuff that came across my desk) Anyway, the spec for it wasn't for much current - only something like 200mA IIRC.

You don't need to be qualified to carry out ISITEE.

 

[Simon47]

Technically no you don't need any qualifications. But you do need to be competent, and more importantly, you and your employer need some means of showing that.
In practice, the training (provided as part of the package with the tester) was a 20 minute DVD and a multi-choice test paper. But it does mean I have another "magic piece of paper"

 

[pirate]

I have that magic piece of paper!
Microsoft Publisher, and i can get you one too!
My training actually consisted of a full day, hands- on, plus presentation, plus course manual. It's not exactly rocket science, I know.
The tester I use is a simple Pass/Fail, no bluetooth download, no fancy email reporting, but it can be used battery power or mains.
However, it is only used for landlord testing. Proper electricians like you lot will likely not be impressed!
ISITEE does sound itchy, though...but far preferable to Portable Appliance Testing testing...
but then, why is abbreviation such a long word?
Why doesn't the all-purpose glue stick to the tube?
Why is there only one Monopolies Commission?

Whatever, I just meant that I have no "qualifications", but I am deemed competent, and I actually believe I am competent to do this simple work. However, if anomalies show up, I seek advice, and don't just sticker everything. I do actually test, and do FVI, and as it is an occasional thing for me, I quite enjoy it. If I had to do it every day I would go mad...

 

[DPG]

And that's the thing - being competent. Understanding what the tester is doing and what the results mean.

The problem is when you test something and the tester says Pass, but it hasn't actually tested anything. Figure 8 mains cables come to mind.

 

[Simon47]

Why doesn't the all-purpose glue stick to the tube?

A friend once invented a universal solvent. But he couldn't find anything to keep it in

 

[pirate]

That's a fair point, DPG!
However, if you have the right adaptors you can test many things...but if you don't know what the tester is doing, you can't be sure...
Recently I tested an office...tons of stuff, but mainly IT.
They had so many extension leads! The Belkin ones failed, time after time...even the non-surge protected ones, but the tester is designed to be that way...I won't bore you with the semantics because you will already know the position...but, oddly, I had never had a fail before on these type of leads. I contacted the tester manufacturer and got an immediate response, which was helpful to me. The client told me to bin them, so I am currently using them at my office-desk! They are absolutely fine!
For me, as an amateur, every day is a learning day. I learn more on here and looking at quality videos than many other so-called learning sources...and there are a couple of guys on here who have given me invaluable assistance on the quiet, so like a new GP, who can't possibly know everything, experience is key.

 

[DPG]

You can get figure 8 adaptors, but since the tester connects live and neutral together, and there is no earth, then what is the tester actually testing?

Rhetorical question by the way!

 

[ackbarthestar]

How will you be measuring differential leakage and touch leakage?

Not required. Earth Bond 4V at 100mA min and IR 500V DC at 1mA max. are the only compulsory tests. The rest are more to do with analysis...

 

[pirate]

I see where you are going, DPG!
TBH, I ignore F8 leads in the main...they are either working, or short-circuited, which virtually never happens.
Haven't failed an IEC or kettle lead in ages...except for the ones from the big river that are rated 10A and can barely support 3A...and you can spot them right away just by picking them up and handling them.

 

[Risteard]

You can get figure 8 adaptors, but since the tester connects live and neutral together, and there is no earth, then what is the tester actually testing?

Rhetorical question by the way!

It's amazing how many people fail to grasp this though!

 

[Risteard]

I see where you are going, DPG!
TBH, I ignore F8 leads in the main...they are either working, or short-circuited, which virtually never happens.
Haven't failed an IEC or kettle lead in ages...except for the ones from the big river that are rated 10A and can barely support 3A...and you can spot them right away just by picking them up and handling them.

I actually failed an IEC lead on Monday. I found it not to have earth continuity through it.

 

[pirate]

It happens, for sure, Risteard. Oddly, it's quite rare, but it does happen...which suggests to me that testing them is worthwhile...how else would you know?
However, PA Testing should be outlawed, and ISITEE replace it...
just my opinion...
It should be accorded a proper place in tenancy and office safety.
OK, it's not full-blooded electrics, but it is still important.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

I failed 8 x IEC320 leads last week. High EB measure prompted a closer look, cut the first one open, inner sheaths were non standard colours, the wire was ridiculously thin I believe copper coated aluminium, so thin I could easily snap sections of it by hand. The other 7 were identical.

 

[oracle]

I failed 8 x IEC320 leads last week. High EB measure prompted a closer look, cut the first one open, inner sheaths were non standard colours, the wire was ridiculously thin I believe copper coated aluminium, so thin I could easily snap sections of it by hand. The other 7 were identical.

Were there any BS numbers on the leads? Surely this should be a requirement for sale in the UK.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

Were there any BS numbers on the leads? Surely this should be a requirement for sale in the UK.

No doubt in my mind any numbers were 100% BS and the product rich in Chinesium. Evidently they originated with a set of budget LED uplighters.

 

[Wilko]

Love it - a new element in the periodic table - Chinesium . Must be next to that Unobtainium they were looking for in Avatar.

 

[oracle]

Still remember when everything from Japan was made from tin (cans) and laughingly called Jap Crap. Then they bought the old assembly line for Austin and using the engine and chassis components designed their Datsun Bluebird. Datsun became Nissan and with Honda,Toyota etc, no ones laughing now. Maybe Chinese will catch on, they are losing “Face” big time!

 

[static zap]

Was a time when fire brigade blamed any device plugged in most of the time.
Video recorders ,
Now we could be moving on from fridges ,to anything with a Chinesium cable .
(did have my doubts about plenty of Phone USB chargers-but have no incoming flex )