PAT Testing Method ?????

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Guys just for your thoughts,

I was on a site recently and we encountered the local PAT guy, luckily we as a company don't do PAT so I have limited knowledge on the subject.

He was using an extension lead and testing about 10-15 items in one go and then stickering them all up after testing all the items in one hit.

We asked him out of curiosity if you can do this as we where not sure and he advised it is the equivalent of a global test when doing IR testing. He told us that if all 15 etc pass in one go then individually they must pass so of course it is ok.

Just looking for people's opinions on this as I have limited PAT knowledge has anyone else seen this done ????

 

[Darkwood]

Lots of welding and grinding etc and lack of extraction system in my factories means conductive dust and soap in the coolants burning off then it layers up inside the DC motors .... regular filter changes on control cabs and motors require steam cleaning throughout and baking dry at least every few years ... be nice to be just PA-Testing a kettle in kitchen if i had the choice but like everyone i hate doing it with a passion!

 

[ackbarthestar]

I doubt this guy has even got a PA-Tester hows he go about flash testing class II approx mine is 1.5-3kv dependent on whether the item has been repaired or not in its past.

Hows will he achieve a flash test me wonders i assume he hasn't got a proper PA-Tester as most now do all the checks in sequence and this would not see you global testing.

When I come across an item of equipment that I'm unfamiliar with I just pull my trousers down. If it doesn't move then its been Flash tested.

No need for 'Claire' .......

 

[davethsparky]

Class 2 kit can need a probe applied sometimes if it has exposed metalwork, not necessarily a flash test though.

On the fluke 6500 we use, and according to the manual for it the probe should be applied to teh exposed metal parts of class 2 kit whilst the insulation test is being carried out. Its the same for a substitute leakage test and a touch current test.

 

[Darkwood]

Class 2 kit can need a probe applied sometimes if it has exposed metalwork, not necessarily a flash test though.

On the fluke 6500 we use, and according to the manual for it the probe should be applied to teh exposed metal parts of class 2 kit whilst the insulation test is being carried out. Its the same for a substitute leakage test and a touch current test.

Yes you are correct but lets clear this up to exactly what i mean ... class I equipment is flash tested to 1.5Kv and class II is at 3kv by the manufacturer now like in my senerio a item is repaired or stripped and serviced then the item should be subject to the same original testing that was required by the manufacturers.

PA-Testers who are rarely in my set-up (heavy industry) can buy a PA-Tester that doesn't afford this option but if you are doing equipment that is serviced and repaired on site you need to maintain it has full integrity as expected from a manufactured new condition thus flash testing required. If you are testing repaired equipment then you should have a meter capable of a 1.5-3kv flash test!

Flash testing for me is essential as it indicates metal dust contaminants building up ...ideal for pre-empting a failure or worse a hazard.

Driving a mini around Silverstone will get you from A to B but if you need to drive the course as it was designed you are going to need to spend a little more money on a car that can achieve this!

 

[Risteard]

Not sure if you are a little confused there.
Class 1 are appliances with earthed and exposed metal work.
Class 2 is double insulated.

Therefore with class 1 you have to do a earth bond test on each appliance.
With a basic class 2 then its on IR.

No, not confused. A Class II appliance may not be insulation-enclosed and as such may have exposed metalwork and you need to verify that there is in fact no path between this and live parts. This can only be achieved by applying the probe.

A PAT tester tests between live conductors connected together and the cpc pin. With a Class II appliance - which has no cpc - then the insulation test will not actually test anything unless a probe is applied as there is no potential difference between the live conductors. Without the probe you are simply proving that the air between the asset and the tester is not conductive!

 

[davethsparky]

I have never yet had to test equipment in that area.

Most of the kit I have to test is reasonably specialised to another sector, the entertainment industry, so has its own little nuances to be considered. A lot of it gets tested with my MFT in the same manner as an installation test and a very thorough visual inspection.
I'd love to watch one of those PAT monkeys try and test one of these

 

[Darkwood]

I have never yet had to test equipment in that area.

Most of the kit I have to test is reasonably specialised to another sector, the entertainment industry, so has its own little nuances to be considered. A lot of it gets tested with my MFT in the same manner as an installation test and a very thorough visual inspection.
I'd love to watch one of those PAT monkeys try and test one of these

Well each segment of the industry to there own i could do with one of them linked and phase shorted to my meter to test the multitude of plug top styles lol

 

[davethsparky]

You certainly end up with a big selection of test adaptors made up for doing them. The other side of the box is normally a forest of MCB's RCD's and variable RCD's, you can easily get bored of RCD testing with one of them!

 

[UNG]

You have to wonder who comes up with idea for these new testing methods what next do a global PAT test at the consumer unit or DB given the size of some of these office blocks you could be testing ???? appliances in one hit makes these few hundred a day lads look like beginners

 

[Deleted member 9648]

No, not confused. A Class II appliance may not be insulation-enclosed and as such may have exposed metalwork and you need to verify that there is in fact no path between this and live parts. This can only be achieved by applying the probe.

A PAT tester tests between live conductors connected together and the cpc pin. With a Class II appliance - which has no cpc - then the insulation test will not actually test anything unless a probe is applied as there is no potential difference between the live conductors. Without the probe you are simply proving that the air between the asset and the tester is not conductive!

One thing this thread has highlighted is how many pat testers just plug a class 11 appliance into the tester...press IR test and assume it's actually tested something!
I had a row on here once with a guy who insisted all insulated moulded phone chargers could and should be IR tested,thats the standard of understanding of yer 'competant person'

 

[Tiny Spark]

No, not confused. A Class II appliance may not be insulation-enclosed and as such may have exposed metalwork and you need to verify that there is in fact no path between this and live parts. This can only be achieved by applying the probe.

A PAT tester tests between live conductors connected together and the cpc pin. With a Class II appliance - which has no cpc - then the insulation test will not actually test anything unless a probe is applied as there is no potential difference between the live conductors. Without the probe you are simply proving that the air between the asset and the tester is not conductive!

That being said I have come across metal cased class 2 equipment with a cpc!!
I have always said sometimes PAT testing certain appliances are not as simply cut as earthed or not earthed, metal or plastic.
Sometimes you have to go against the grain a little and as the old saying goes...

When in doubt treat it as class 1 lol

 

[Darkwood]

Just to hi-light here the Flash test 1.5kv for Class I and 3Kv for class II is what is required as a test by the manufacturer, most PA-Testers won't need to do it, if an item is been serviced though or having repaired done (i don't mean a new plug or flex) its should be subject to the appropriate flash test for its class.... the flash test on class II should be tested to all points exposed whether insulation or conductive, the flash test on class I needs to be to insulated parts only for obvious reasons.

If you are not in a similar industry to me then you may not ever use a flash test but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

http://www.testing-and-installation.co.uk/3a_guide_to_pat_testing.pdf
If the OP reads the link he can access whether the accused is falling short of his job.

 

[Tiny Spark]

but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

Nout to do with zapping the apprentice then?


God bless the megger!

 

[Darkwood]

Its a shame they no longer do MICC at college gone are the days off running it around the workshop having both ends in front of your mate and telling him to touch them ..... dumbass --- first lesson in capacitive charge !!!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Just to hi-light here the Flash test 1.5kv for Class I and 3Kv for class II is what is required as a test by the manufacturer, most PA-Testers won't need to do it, if an item is been serviced though or having repaired done (i don't mean a new plug or flex) its should be subject to the appropriate flash test for its class.... the flash test on class II should be tested to all points exposed whether insulation or conductive, the flash test on class I needs to be to insulated parts only for obvious reasons.

If you are not in a similar industry to me then you may not ever use a flash test but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

http://www.testing-and-installation.co.uk/3a_guide_to_pat_testing.pdf
If the OP reads the link he can access whether the accused is falling short of his job.

There used to be a metal foil plate surrounded on three sides in a rubber cover with a m4 socket stuck under the paitents bottom when being operated on. It made the return connection when using something akin to a mini mig welder for sealing up micro veins to stop bleeding so that the surgeon could continue without the need for endless swabs.
I'm not sure they still use this method any more.

However, i've thought for a while that it might be useful to get hold of one of these.

 

[Risteard]

That being said I have come across metal cased class 2 equipment with a cpc!!

I too have come across allegedly Class II equipment with a cpc. I highlight my concerns and advise the client to contact the manufacturer for details. I don't just pass it.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

New terms for the electrical glossary.

1/ Drive-by PIR
2/ Global PAT

I was interviewed for a testing job sometime ago.

"We don't do R1 + R2 on our new builds, Just Ze, Zs on the skts and a global IR"

Why don't people just slow down, do the job properly and take pride in their work

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


there Is an abundance of people who do this and I think it could be because of costs,

It's no excuse and people like this ruin the industry as they under price good honest workers and then do a rubbish job and get away with limitations and all other kinds of excuses.

Rant over

 

[LeeH]

We pay under 1.50 per appliance with Hawksworth. I told the big wigs upstairs to keep it in house as there is no way you can inspect the tool, cord, fuse size etc. And test, and document correctly for that price.

But! It was cheap so it was outsourced anyway. Another example of costs first, safety second.

My rant over.

 

[Badged01]

We pay under 1.50 per appliance .....

Thats expensive! Companies out there doing it far, far cheaper ......

 

[LeeH]

Well that's just insane. They must be just filling in the stickers.

 

[Badged01]

Well that's just insane. They must be just filling in the stickers.

Thats probably all they are doing for £1.50 an appliance ......

Edit: Sorry, and filling in some paperwork!

 

[Hawkmoon]

Just to hi-light here the Flash test 1.5kv for Class I and 3Kv for class II is what is required as a test by the manufacturer, most PA-Testers won't need to do it, if an item is been serviced though or having repaired done (i don't mean a new plug or flex) its should be subject to the appropriate flash test for its class.... the flash test on class II should be tested to all points exposed whether insulation or conductive, the flash test on class I needs to be to insulated parts only for obvious reasons.

If you are not in a similar industry to me then you may not ever use a flash test but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

http://www.testing-and-installation.co.uk/3a_guide_to_pat_testing.pdf
If the OP reads the link he can access whether the accused is falling short of his job.

Handy for getting the apprentice off his mobile phone too

 

[Pete999]

Where did they stable their horses?

 

[overskilled]

There used to be a metal foil plate surrounded on three sides in a rubber cover with a m4 socket stuck under the paitents bottom when being operated on. It made the return connection when using something akin to a mini mig welder for sealing up micro veins to stop bleeding so that the surgeon could continue without the need for endless swabs.
I'm not sure they still use this method any more.


However, i've thought for a while that it might be useful to get hold of one of these.

Yeah the local minor surgery unit has one, they used it on the wife (has a clotting disorder) when removing a mole...wound was bleeding a lot...
Can't remember the name of it...electro cauterising gun....sounds like a welder also when its being used, "wonderful" stench of burning flesh from it also....yuck

- - - Updated - - -

There used to be a metal foil plate surrounded on three sides in a rubber cover with a m4 socket stuck under the paitents bottom when being operated on. It made the return connection when using something akin to a mini mig welder for sealing up micro veins to stop bleeding so that the surgeon could continue without the need for endless swabs.
I'm not sure they still use this method any more.


However, i've thought for a while that it might be useful to get hold of one of these.

Yeah the local minor surgery unit has one, they used it on the wife (has a clotting disorder) when removing a mole...wound was bleeding a lot...
Can't remember the name of it...electro cauterising gun....sounds like a welder also when its being used, "wonderful" stench of burning flesh from it also....yuck