This is an issue that is starting to get more of a ball ache for me, when theres a smart meter installed without an isolator and I really need to cut the power (CU change for example). My question really is this, has anyone here, or any of your customers been fined/reprimanded/imprisioned/threatened in any after a smart meter has alerted the provider that powers been cut, due to pulling the main fuse ? I ask now because im looking at ever increasing jobs now where the fuse really needs to be pulled and im becoming reluctant to do it; trying to explain to the customer is just annoying and many of them im sure have no idea. Its come to the stage now where instead of pulling the main fuse im taking tails out of a live henley block (if fitted). Ive seen on DS youtube channel that firms did exist that done the job for £90 or some such amount but have now stopped as its deemed unsafe/illegal/whatever. Ive also read ia previous Napit periodical that there was some kind of "training & certification" that would allow electricians to pull the main fuse, but that cans been kicked down the road once more by the looks of it. Anyways without going into a rant about it has anyone here, or any of your customers been fined/reprimanded/imprisioned/threatened for pulling a main fuse due to a smart meter alert ??
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Discuss Pulling main fuse and smart meters in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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Nope!
I can’t see them going to any massive effort to go after a registered electrician who’s just pulled the fuse for a CU change, as long as the meter seals are still intact and especially if no tampering or theft of electricity has occurred
Id rather just pull it and argue the to ss later than risk working on live tails
I can’t see them going to any massive effort to go after a registered electrician who’s just pulled the fuse for a CU change, as long as the meter seals are still intact and especially if no tampering or theft of electricity has occurred
Id rather just pull it and argue the to ss later than risk working on live tails
Thats what I think/thought/assume, say for example you look a job where a smart meter has been installed last week, all sealed up looking lovelly without any isolator present. Then I need to cut the seals and make myself a potential criminal; its out of order and needs to be addressed seriously !
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New customer of mine can't get a supplier to install a isolation switch until
July. I'm going to bed tonight and left a message under the pillow for fuse fairy's to got to the house to pull the fuse.
July. I'm going to bed tonight and left a message under the pillow for fuse fairy's to got to the house to pull the fuse.
That is the most sensible thing to do tbh from a "dont risk electrcutig yourself" perspective. Just a shame its not written into the regs somewhere as everything else seems to be, even down to the SPD scenario and zapping yourself while mowing the lawn in a lightning strike !
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I had the dno come once when i pulled fuse with a smets2 - only because he was literally streets away and the office could see his location relative to property i was at.
Depending on supplier and meter it flags loss of power and only some suppliers share info with dno.
He saw what i was doing and didn't mind. Even gave me some seals! Power was only off for around quarter of an hour so he was quick off mark.
He showed on his i pad what the dno call centre see and it flags up as loss of supply, they monitor it and if off for a prolonged period they investigate as a possible fault. If off for say 10 mins whilst you fit the isolator they dont care. If loads of meters flag loss of power they obviously have a network issue.
Smets 1 dont report home the same but smets2 have a whole host of alarms built in
Ssen let you pull the fuse and have a policy on it. Wpd dont but generally turn a blind eye.
Depending on supplier and meter it flags loss of power and only some suppliers share info with dno.
He saw what i was doing and didn't mind. Even gave me some seals! Power was only off for around quarter of an hour so he was quick off mark.
He showed on his i pad what the dno call centre see and it flags up as loss of supply, they monitor it and if off for a prolonged period they investigate as a possible fault. If off for say 10 mins whilst you fit the isolator they dont care. If loads of meters flag loss of power they obviously have a network issue.
Smets 1 dont report home the same but smets2 have a whole host of alarms built in
Ssen let you pull the fuse and have a policy on it. Wpd dont but generally turn a blind eye.
The strange part of this problem of pulling the main fuse is in the last few years on a few jobs where I have had to get the DNO in to replace the old service head I got chatting to the DNO lads doing the jobs and I was left with a few seals to seal the service head and on one occasion the meter as well when I had finished the work so me pulling the fuse to do my work didn't seem to be a big issue for them
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Ok, so a smart meter alerts the DNO via some system called smets 1 or 2, is that right ? If so that makes me less concerned about being lambasted as the DNO are usually decent guys and on the ball; the service providers thou im not sure they would be so accommodating; good to know its not the service providers concern if that's what your getting at.
Ah but it is!
The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (which is a statutory law, unlike the regs) has regulation 14 that states:
No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unless –
(a) it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and
(b) it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and
(c) suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury
See page 37 of the free document here:
So while the meter company could jump up and down at procedure, I really doubt any judge would side with them for not having an isolator switch fitted and you having to pull the fuse to make repairs/upgrades safely as "unreasonable in all the circumstances".
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While obviously we cannot condone any sort of fuse-pulling activity on these forums, anyone who is doing that sort of work really should be trained to recognise when to leave it to the DNO. Basically anything looking damaged or very old would be an instant red flag.
Also when working on anything that is energised and very high energy you absolutely should be wearing suitable PPE to minimise the damage an arc-flash incident might case. For my own sins (which are many and varied, but not usually involving the DNO) I have ended up with this sort of stuff as a starting point:
www.tester.co.uk
The visor is the obvious defence against something going BANG! in your face, but you need gloves to stop both the shock risk and the 3rd degree burns that an arc pushing out 1/4 MW can do in tens of milliseconds. Also you really don't want your cloths going on fire or melting to your skin, so natural fibres and welding-style overalls are a start!
For bigger stuff you get fancier PPE that is rated for much higher energy, etc, and hearing protection is also recommended for the blast wave you can get. True, you look like a worker battling Chernobyl clean-up, but folk doing that really ought to have a full risk assessment and establish the arc-flash energy values to chose it.
Also when working on anything that is energised and very high energy you absolutely should be wearing suitable PPE to minimise the damage an arc-flash incident might case. For my own sins (which are many and varied, but not usually involving the DNO) I have ended up with this sort of stuff as a starting point:
CATU CGM-00 Mechanical Insulated Gloves (500V) - Choice of Size
Insulated below 500V Work without leather overgloves Several sizes available
www.tester.co.uk
Click Flame Retardant Coverall (CFRBS) | PPG Workwear
Click Flame Retardant Coverall (CFRBS) Welders coverall. Protects against heat and flame. Concealed stud front to neck. Discounted prices.
ppgworkwear.co.uk
The visor is the obvious defence against something going BANG! in your face, but you need gloves to stop both the shock risk and the 3rd degree burns that an arc pushing out 1/4 MW can do in tens of milliseconds. Also you really don't want your cloths going on fire or melting to your skin, so natural fibres and welding-style overalls are a start!
For bigger stuff you get fancier PPE that is rated for much higher energy, etc, and hearing protection is also recommended for the blast wave you can get. True, you look like a worker battling Chernobyl clean-up, but folk doing that really ought to have a full risk assessment and establish the arc-flash energy values to chose it.
Yea but could it be argued (probably not but I say it anyway) that a certain DNO's rule says its illegal to pull the main fuse (I know its subjective). Why cant they sort this out we electricians are in limbo land. I give you an example, a employee working for a EV charger firm doing one install per day, every property has a smart meter and no isolator. So he pulls a fuse every day, then he gets audited by an EV auditor, and the question is asked "did you pull the fuse ?" Who is in the wrong in the eyes of the auditor ?
Couldn't agree more, well said
I think the policy varies a lot from DNO to DNO, but it is not something I usually get involved with. I believe there are some that issue temporary seals to registered sparks who ask (and probably have done some basic course) which would appear to be the best way forward.
I suspect the DNO's biggest concern is really about accidents involving a cut-out shorting before the main installation fuse and the resulting risk of fire, arc-flash injury, and damage to their network.
In many ways smart meters are more likely to pick up the theft of electricity as it would be fairly simple to see a meter's daily load drop suspiciously after a power interruption. Defiantly illegal, but less likely to kill someone than a fire.
I will deffo talk to the next DNO UKPN when I see one about the seal situation. Well good night and stay safe
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Never had any problems doing it, had it do it a few times recently. I’ve probs changed more dbs that don’t have an isolator. Never had any fall back
Neither have myself tbh, have had any fallback that is
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When you go to price a job for a CU change, tell the customer to contact their supplier to get a service isolator fitted. No CU change until that’s been done.
I’d rather not have the hassle of getting contacted weeks down the line to explain my actions on a particular day.
Yes, I’ve pulled the odd fuse…. After switching everything off. No load, no arc.
Yes I’ve pulled live tails out the outgoing side of a meter. Same, no load.
But I’d rather not have a smart meter reporting what I’m doing.
I’d rather not have the hassle of getting contacted weeks down the line to explain my actions on a particular day.
Yes, I’ve pulled the odd fuse…. After switching everything off. No load, no arc.
Yes I’ve pulled live tails out the outgoing side of a meter. Same, no load.
But I’d rather not have a smart meter reporting what I’m doing.
Alan-N
Supporter
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Had to pull a few doing EV chargers when the tails need to be upgraded and there is no isolator, I have self-adhesive seals issued by SSEN , there is no course, you simply contact them and as long as you are part of a CP scheme you get directed to a depot to pick them up 5 or 10 at a time, procedure can be found here https://www.ssen.co.uk/globalassets...electrical-contractors/1-pr-net-cab-009-1.pdf
OnlQQker
Esteemed
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Something like this chap was wearingWhile obviously we cannot condone any sort of fuse-pulling activity on these forums, anyone who is doing that sort of work really should be trained to recognise when to leave it to the DNO. Basically anything looking damaged or very old would be an instant red flag.
Also when working on anything that is energised and very high energy you absolutely should be wearing suitable PPE to minimise the damage an arc-flash incident might case. For my own sins (which are many and varied, but not usually involving the DNO) I have ended up with this sort of stuff as a starting point:
CATU CGM-00 Mechanical Insulated Gloves (500V) - Choice of Size
Insulated below 500V Work without leather overgloves Several sizes availableClick Flame Retardant Coverall (CFRBS) | PPG Workwear
Click Flame Retardant Coverall (CFRBS) Welders coverall. Protects against heat and flame. Concealed stud front to neck. Discounted prices.ppgworkwear.co.uk
The visor is the obvious defence against something going BANG! in your face, but you need gloves to stop both the shock risk and the 3rd degree burns that an arc pushing out 1/4 MW can do in tens of milliseconds. Also you really don't want your cloths going on fire or melting to your skin, so natural fibres and welding-style overalls are a start!
For bigger stuff you get fancier PPE that is rated for much higher energy, etc, and hearing protection is also recommended for the blast wave you can get. True, you look like a worker battling Chernobyl clean-up, but folk doing that really ought to have a full risk assessment and establish the arc-flash energy values to chose it.
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- 986
Crazy video
Scary stuff
it amazes me at the end when they start dumping snow on an electrical fire to put it out
I would have done my pantsCrazy video
Scary stuff
it amazes me at the end when they start dumping snow on an electrical fire to put it out
OnlQQker
Esteemed
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- 1,273
Electricity can be extremely scary stuff.Crazy video
Scary stuff
it amazes me at the end when they start dumping snow on an electrical fire to put it out
The power of it is unreal
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- 986
Glad I do mostly domestic work!
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What would be the causes of an arc flash with regards pulling a domestic main fuse. Plus, have you ever known anyone who has witnessed or seen one (again, domestic cut out).While obviously we cannot condone any sort of fuse-pulling activity on these forums, anyone who is doing that sort of work really should be trained to recognise when to leave it to the DNO. Basically anything looking damaged or very old would be an instant red flag.
Also when working on anything that is energised and very high energy you absolutely should be wearing suitable PPE to minimise the damage an arc-flash incident might case. For my own sins (which are many and varied, but not usually involving the DNO) I have ended up with this sort of stuff as a starting point:
CATU CGM-00 Mechanical Insulated Gloves (500V) - Choice of Size
Insulated below 500V Work without leather overgloves Several sizes availableClick Flame Retardant Coverall (CFRBS) | PPG Workwear
Click Flame Retardant Coverall (CFRBS) Welders coverall. Protects against heat and flame. Concealed stud front to neck. Discounted prices.ppgworkwear.co.uk
The visor is the obvious defence against something going BANG! in your face, but you need gloves to stop both the shock risk and the 3rd degree burns that an arc pushing out 1/4 MW can do in tens of milliseconds. Also you really don't want your cloths going on fire or melting to your skin, so natural fibres and welding-style overalls are a start!
For bigger stuff you get fancier PPE that is rated for much higher energy, etc, and hearing protection is also recommended for the blast wave you can get. True, you look like a worker battling Chernobyl clean-up, but folk doing that really ought to have a full risk assessment and establish the arc-flash energy values to chose it.
Ps.. I've just ordered an arc flash helmet
The most obvious one is an old/weak cutout that fails during the pull and allows the supply L-N to short, or the supply cable is badly damaged inside so movement/strain triggers a short.
The less obvious one is inserting the fuse on to a live fault, your immediate reaction is to pull your hand away but withdrawing the fuse is going to expose more arc to you. Ideally you line the fuse up and then with open palm push it in firmly. If faulted, let the fuse blow and contain the energy.
Hopefully you never need it!Ps.. I've just ordered an arc flash helmet
But if you do it can save you from serious injuries: some limit to UV light on eyes, IR burns to skin, splattered molten metal, and a little protection against inhaling metal vapour.
Or even just banging your head in confined space, accident or not. I sometimes use mine in the attic in case of getting my head cut on nails holding slates in place.
Just to add, the PPE is not only for fuse-pulling activities, really any when working live such as removing DB covers in situations when powering down a whole installation is not workable (unlikely domestic, I can't see any reasonable situation when you would not power off the CU first), or testing when anything of significant energy could be disturbed/shorted.
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In the USA if you pull a smart meter the power company will be there in less than an hour and will file charges and have you put in jail for tampering with a meter
Is it a requirement in USA electric code that there is a separate disconnection means after the meter? If so I can't see any legitimate reason to pull the meter.
The issue here in the UK is to work on the DB (= CU domestically) you need the power off to replace it and the Electricity At Work regulations say you should not work live unless absolutely no alternative, but often there is no means of isolation to do that or replace the 'tails' (main cables from meter to CU) other than pulling out the supply fuse.
Which you are not supposed to do.
However, the risk of death or injury always outranks upsetting the smart meter company who, when they fitted the meter, should have fitted an isolator switch so it was not necessary to pull anything!
Our meters are pretty much fixed, they are screwed to whatever support panel the input fuse & CU are and hard-wired, usually with the 'tails' of double-sheathed cable 16mm or 25mm in size (about AWG #5 or #3).
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Also here they would have to establish that you were attempting 'Abstracting Electricity'
Theft Act Offences | The Crown Prosecution Service
Elements
Section 13 of the 1968 Act creates the offence of dishonestly using electricity without authority or dishonestly causing electricity to be wasted or diverted.‘Dishonesty'
The test to be applied now must be that adopted by the Supreme Court in Ivey v Genting Casinos. See “Dishonestly” above under Theft in this chapter. The case of Boggeln v Williams (1978) 67 Cr App R 50 (in which it was said that “dishonesty” must be decided on the basis of the defendant’s own beliefs about whether they were being dishonest or not) can no longer be regarded as good law.It is not necessary that the defendant should have tampered with the meter. Provided that they have in fact used the electricity, that they were not authorised to do so and that in doing so they were being dishonest by the standards of ordinary people, the offence will be made out: R v McCreadie (1993) 96 Cr App R 143.
Allocation and Penalty
The offence is triable either-way. The maximum penalty at the Crown Court is five years and/or an unlimited fine. In the magistrates’ court the maximum penalty is six months imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine.
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If you get the same as mine the visor's action is a bit odd. Basically you pull it down over your face then when fully down slightly 'out' away from your face to lock it in place. Then pushing slightly down/back releases it and "boing!" it shoots up on its springs out of the way.Ps.. I've just ordered an arc flash helmet
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So you're spending money on extra PPE to perform an action that you shouldn't be doing without informing the supplier....
Just ask the supplier to install a service isolator instead of informing them.
Just ask the supplier to install a service isolator instead of informing them.
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Yep.The shop owner who needs a Isolator fitted .Made contact with the DNO and they are due to reply to him .Its been logged as urgent and also its been questioned why was one not fitted a few years ago when the new meter was fitted ? Lets see how long it takes !
That is a very good point, and getting the DNO/meter company to do what they damn well ought to have done in the first place is sensible.
Depending on what you do outside of non-approved fuse pulling, the PPE is good to have. Last time I had the lot on was doing some PFC/PSCC measurements on a live 800A busbar chamber, the sort of situation that give me the willies even with PPE on.
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Have done so more times than I can remember without incident and often if you're in a situation where the DNO is involved anyway such as a new build and basically don't come over as a total plum then they won't even bother sealing a new head if it's obvious more more is happening.
Except for one time..... was the early days of smart meters and the software basically crashed in it, wouldn't reboot properly after power was restored. The customer had to get their energy company to source a specialist engineer who then had to drive about 5hrs across country to sort out the programming again, was a right faff and what should have been a 1hr job turned into a whole day with no power for a very understanding client!
Except for one time..... was the early days of smart meters and the software basically crashed in it, wouldn't reboot properly after power was restored. The customer had to get their energy company to source a specialist engineer who then had to drive about 5hrs across country to sort out the programming again, was a right faff and what should have been a 1hr job turned into a whole day with no power for a very understanding client!
Do smart meter installers routinely fit an isolator where non is fitted or do they just pull the main, do the work and shove it back in again? I guess its down to individual metering companies and supplier requirements in their contracts? Thinking about it ,an isolator should be a compulsory upgrade given the issues with pulling and reinstalling a main fuse ?
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The isolator is fitted after the meter, before the consumer unit. The still have to pull fuse to change meter.
Edit
Sorry. Rereading the post, I see what you mean.
Of course they should fit an isolator as standard but that sounds like too much common sense.
Edit
Sorry. Rereading the post, I see what you mean.
Of course they should fit an isolator as standard but that sounds like too much common sense.
Hi all.
just a quick insight into the reason we don't fit isolators to every job when installing a new meter.
1: If the consumer tails are too short as we are instructed to fit them in the bottom of the isolator as if the fixings fail the tails that drop would be dead.
2 we are not authorised to carry out any work on a consumer unit or associated cables other than termination into the meter or isolator if we can fit one
3 space on the meter board. some as you know are limited.
This said I will generally fit an isolator where I can and you should find that all new installs/new builds have them as standard.
Other scenarios are that we do force fit some pre payment meters due to debt on accounts and if we are executing a warrant then speed is of the essence taking into account some of the places we fit meters. ( i wouldnt let my dogs stay in some )
As for pulling fuses we are trained to do so and are required to report any unsafe situations such as rotten meter boards, exposed copper etc. We also have full flame retardant double layered clothing and full PPE which is mandatory. A friend of mine had a flash over due to a faulty cut out and rotten board which gave way when putting the fuse back in and the PPE saved his skin although his boxers needed replaced.
Im sure there will be a few Yeah Buts to 1-2 and 3 and some of the other context but thats just a brief overview which I hope clarifies part of the initial question.
stay safe
just a quick insight into the reason we don't fit isolators to every job when installing a new meter.
1: If the consumer tails are too short as we are instructed to fit them in the bottom of the isolator as if the fixings fail the tails that drop would be dead.
2 we are not authorised to carry out any work on a consumer unit or associated cables other than termination into the meter or isolator if we can fit one
3 space on the meter board. some as you know are limited.
This said I will generally fit an isolator where I can and you should find that all new installs/new builds have them as standard.
Other scenarios are that we do force fit some pre payment meters due to debt on accounts and if we are executing a warrant then speed is of the essence taking into account some of the places we fit meters. ( i wouldnt let my dogs stay in some )
As for pulling fuses we are trained to do so and are required to report any unsafe situations such as rotten meter boards, exposed copper etc. We also have full flame retardant double layered clothing and full PPE which is mandatory. A friend of mine had a flash over due to a faulty cut out and rotten board which gave way when putting the fuse back in and the PPE saved his skin although his boxers needed replaced.
Im sure there will be a few Yeah Buts to 1-2 and 3 and some of the other context but thats just a brief overview which I hope clarifies part of the initial question.
stay safe
I think we will see a lot of "activity " the next 6 months . People are already offering to work with lives tails in order to bypass meters . Small consumer to run kitchen ring, boiler etc . So you still get a bill but its lower. I doubt the companies have the resources to check any "smart meter " flagging . I think most of it is just a myth !. Ive never heard of anyone getting a visit
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I have a rewire ongoing where someone was due to come and change the meter, so I left an isolator with a written note on the wall to please put his tails into it (no CU currently in place).
Instead he fitted his own, as apparently that is "all they are allowed to use" - a Chint one with a rather flimsy feeling main switch, but at least it makes things easy for me going forward.
Of course, a sensible industry would have an isolator built into every meter by now, like some non smart ones originally did apparently (never seen one though)
Instead he fitted his own, as apparently that is "all they are allowed to use" - a Chint one with a rather flimsy feeling main switch, but at least it makes things easy for me going forward.
Of course, a sensible industry would have an isolator built into every meter by now, like some non smart ones originally did apparently (never seen one though)
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The other channels generally nod and wink, but avoid showing it even when it's obvious they've done it - not sorry someone has made it open what everyone knows goes on.
Up rating or down rating? Down rating if the tails are undersized I wouldn't have such a problem with, but uprating assumes that you know the condition of the incomer/local demand, etc - something I doubt even the DNO knows these days....
A lot of risk in documenting that, should something happen....
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About 15 years ago (or therabouts) I was at a SELECT meeting and a consultation on smart meters was happening and they asked if we had feedback.
I suggested the new meters have a built in BS EN 60947-3 isolator (as several Hydro ones have) and this was passed up the food chain
After things were settled I asked about the isolators and was informed that they were ruled out for cost reasons as it would add £5 to a smart meter cost
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Given you a 'like' BE, as there isn't a 'scary' option.
Reply to Pulling main fuse and smart meters in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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