RCD requirements for old install

[Ratmeister]

I'm a property owner who is needing to get an old electrical installation NICEIC certified.

One of the buildings is a small office block with 6 small offices. The offices aren't currently being used commercially, this certification is just for insurance reasons.

The main fuse box is an old type one with rewirable fuses. It also has an Economy 7 fuse box, again with rewirable fuses. These would have been installed to the guidelines at the time which was probably about 30 years ago.

The electrician is saying because there is no RCD protection on these fuse boxes, both of them need replaced at substantial cost. Is this correct?

 

[westward10]

Generally I would Code 3 the lack of additional RCD protection in most circumstances. A commercial installation having BS3036 semi-enclosed fuses (rewireable) must be of some age however this does not necessarily mean it is unsafe. Being of such an age it is doubtful it satisfies the needs for a modern office environment so has it undergone alterations.

 

[Ratmeister]

Generally I would Code 3 the lack of additional RCD protection in most circumstances. A commercial installation having BS3036 semi-enclosed fuses (rewireable) must be of some age however this does not necessarily mean it is unsafe. Being of such an age it is doubtful it satisfies the needs for a modern office environment so has it undergone alterations.

It hasn't been used commercially for nearly 20 years. It has had some DIY modifications recently as it is currently being used by us as a home office/storage of old items we don't use.

 

[littlespark]

If nothing untoward, then agree, a C3.
This will still bring a “satisfactory” outcome to the report. That’s all the insurance will be worried about.

 

[westward10]

What is the floor area of the small offices because if they are very small the existing installation may satisfy any tenant.

 

[brianmoooore]

Assuming that there's little possibility of plugged in equipment being used outdoors, then C3. The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time, any alterations were done to the regs at the the time they were made, and that nothing has deteriorated to the state of being unsatisfactory.
I would, however, add a note to the EICR, recommending that the fusegear be upgraded to include RCDs.

 

[Ratmeister]

What is the floor area of the small offices because if they are very small the existing installation may satisfy any tenant.

The entire block is only about 60 m squared.

 

[Ratmeister]

Assuming that there's little possibility of plugged in equipment being used outdoors, then C3. The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time, any alterations were done to the regs at the the time they were made, and that nothing has deteriorated to the state of being unsatisfactory.
I would, however, add a note to the EICR, recommending that the fusegear be upgraded to include RCDs.

If some of our DIY mods needed fixed or we needed to repair some other things, is it okay?
Or do you have to then upgrade eveything if any repair is needed?

 

[westward10]

The problem with getting an EICR done in this day and age is that the market is flooded with incompetent people who really shouldn't be undertaking them this includes members of the NICEIC and others. The chances of you finding someone who does not judge the lack of additional RCD protection as being the end of the world is slim. That said there may well be other factors which would render the installation as being unsatisfactory.

 

[Ratmeister]

The problem with getting an EICR done in this day and age is that the market is flooded with incompetent people who really shouldn't be undertaking them this includes members of the NICEIC and others. The chances of you finding someone who does not judge the lack of additional RCD protection as being the end of the world is slim. That said there may well be other factors which would render the installation as being unsatisfactory.

I don’t mind paying to fix any other areas that may need fixed if it’s unsatisfactory. It’s just that the fuse boxes are obviously a major cost and RCD was the reason given.

Why would Economy 7 sockets need RCD protection if the leads to the heaters cannot be removed?

If any sockets were added in the last 5 years or any of the diy mods were needing changed would this mean the entire installation should conform to today’s regulations?

 

[westward10]

If someone has added socket outlets in the last five years they should have put additional RCD protection in place.

 

[Risteard]

The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time, any alterations were done to the regs at the the time they were made

I'm not sure that I'd entirely agree with that statement.

 

[brianmoooore]

If some of our DIY mods needed fixed or we needed to repair some other things, is it okay?
Or do you have to then upgrade eveything if any repair is needed?

What constitutes a repair? Common sense needs to be applied.
Changing a damaged socket for a new one is a like for like repair, and is allowed, but if the repair consists of removing something that was fitted not in accordance with the regulations, then that is allowed, but if you then reinstate what was remove, that has to be in accordance with current regs.
I've come across this conundrum many times when I've been asked to 'move' a socket. I've explained to the customer that removing a socket is one job, and fitting a socket is another, which needs to be to current regs.

 

[Ratmeister]

Upgrading the main fuse box is probably a sensible thing to do by the sounds of it. I'd imagine it will make the place easier to sell as well.

The Economy 7 fuse box is a different matter though. This installation has defintely not been touched and the sockets feeding the heaters can't be used to plug anything else in. Does everyone agree this is just a C3?

 

[davesparks]

The regs require that the installation was installed in accordance with the regs at the time,

No they don't, the current regulations don't make any such requirement of old installations.
The only requirement the current regulations make of old installations is that they be inspected and tested at appropriate intervals.

The report which is issued should identify defects, damage, deterioration and areas where our understanding, technology and the regulations have changed and safety improvements can or should be made.

 

[davesparks]

Upgrading the main fuse box is probably a sensible thing to do by the sounds of it. I'd imagine it will make the place easier to sell as well.

If you are selling a commercial building it is unlikely to make much difference as the new owners will most likely alter/adapt the building to their purposes anyway and possibly remove whatever new DB is installed.

The Economy 7 fuse box is a different matter though. This installation has defintely not been touched and the sockets feeding the heaters can't be used to plug anything else in. Does everyone agree this is just a C3?

It's very hard to give a firm judgement on a code without actually seeing the installation, there could be any number of factors involved which you may not realise are important to mention.
If the heaters are plugged into sockets then they can be unplugged and used to plug something else in, it's just a question of whether anyone would do this during the E7 hours.
Plus it is very unusual for storage heaters to he connected via a socket, this may well be a cause to look a little deeper into the installation in itself.

 

[brianmoooore]

Where the regs at the time of installation differ from those that are current, C3s, improvement recommended, will be generated on any EICR undertaken. These C3s will not normally lead to an 'unsatisfactory' report.

 

[Ratmeister]

If you are selling a commercial building it is unlikely to make much difference as the new owners will most likely alter/adapt the building to their purposes anyway and possibly remove whatever new DB is installed.


It's very hard to give a firm judgement on a code without actually seeing the installation, there could be any number of factors involved which you may not realise are important to mention.
If the heaters are plugged into sockets then they can be unplugged and used to plug something else in, it's just a question of whether anyone would do this during the E7 hours.
Plus it is very unusual for storage heaters to he connected via a socket, this may well be a cause to look a little deeper into the installation in itself.

The E7 heaters can't be unplugged. I probably mean they are E7 power switches, not sockets. We have E7 heaters in a few buildings and they're all the same, the power lead from the heater is fixed and comes out the front of the switch.

 

[davesparks]

Where the regs at the time of installation differ from those that are current, C3s, improvement recommended, will be generated on any EICR undertaken.

Not necessarily, if there is no safety improvement to be made then no code should be given (eg pre-harmonisation colours) but if it is potentially dangerous then it will be reported as a C2 (eg unlinked fuse or circuit breaker in the neutral)

 

[brianmoooore]

Testing and allocation of coding should not be entirely a 'tick box' exercise. There will occasionally be things where the tester's expertise is used to declare a particular item as unsatisfactory.
This is a thread in DIY, not a deep intellectual discussion hidden in 'the Arms'.

 

[davesparks]

Testing and allocation of coding should not be entirely a 'tick box' exercise. There will occasionally be things where the tester's expertise is used to declare a particular item as unsatisfactory.

Nobody is suggesting it should be a tick box exercise are they?

This is a thread in DIY, not a deep intellectual discussion hidden in 'the Arms'.

It's not in the DIY section as I can't post there,
This thread is in electrical wiring, theories and regulations section, not that it makes any difference which section of the forum it is in.

 

[littlespark]

The OP is badged as DIY, so maybe some confusion there.


If an older installation has already been tested, and the worst outcome is a C3, then no work is required to bring it up to modern specs…
If it is decided that new work needs to be done, ie new lighting, new sockets etc, then the new work must be done to current regs, and may need a new CU at that time.

 

[Ratmeister]

Say we found a few C2s on an existing circuit? Would repairing them then require the latest regulations to be applied and force RCD protection and a new fuse box?

 

[littlespark]

Say we found a few C2s on an existing circuit? Would repairing them then require the latest regulations to be applied and force RCD protection and a new fuse box?

Repairing, or like for like replacement doesn’t normally warrant a certificate, never mind taking it up to current regs….
However, it would depend how much was being done…. If you were have to substantially rewire a section of circuit, I would say yes…. But changing a broken faceplate, no.

 

[Ratmeister]

If there has never been a previous EICR issued on the install, is that a problem? It might be hard to pinpoint when exactly the work was done originally. I know when approximately it was done but there is no documentation to state this.

 

[littlespark]

If there has never been a previous EICR issued on the install, is that a problem? It might be hard to pinpoint when exactly the work was done originally. I know when approximately it was done but there is no documentation to state this.

That’s where experienced, well trained electricians come in.

Initial verification and testing on a new job is all very well, but to produce a good EICR, the electrician needs to be able to age an installation… sometimes through the equipment in use, types of cable in use, general age of the building.. etc.
it doesn’t even have to be accurate. 20 year old, it’s possibly fine. 30, there could be age related wear and tear… 40…. 50?
TBH, there could be a 5 year old installation that has more problems and more serious problems than a 30 year old one done properly at the time.

The coding of a C1, or C2 has never changed. It’s either dangerous, or potentially dangerous.
A C3 is actually harder to identify, and I believe ROI has a “not to current regs” code as well. (Am I right there?)

C3 is classed as “improvement recommended” There is nothing there to demand it has to be brought up to date.

 

[Ratmeister]

Looks like the advice I’ve been given that all fuse boxes need replaced is wrong then!

 

[brianmoooore]

Looks like the advice I’ve been given that all fuse boxes need replaced is wrong then!

There is nothing to stop a Wylex rewireable fusebox being used for a brand new installation, provided it is of the later type that has a screw needing a screwdriver securing the cover over the fuses.

 

[Ratmeister]

There is nothing to stop a Wylex rewireable fusebox being used for a brand new installation, provided it is of the later type that has a screw needing a screwdriver securing the cover over the fuses.

I’ve had 3 electricians look at it, all NICEIC. Two of them said rewirable fuses are out in 18th edition guidelines, the other said it needs RCD protection. None of them said it’s okay because none of these guidelines were in force at the time.

I think an earlier post saying my problem will be the fact most electricians don’t actually know the regulations has hit the nail on the head.

 

[brianmoooore]

If you used one for a new installation RCD protection might well be required, but not under all circumstances. The RCD can be in a separate enclosure, connected into the tails feeding the fusebox.
Note that I'm not recommending the use of rewireable fuses, and have not installed a non RCD protected final circuit since the mid '80s. I'd certainly recommend that your fusegear is upgraded to the latest specs, but I wouldn't force you to by declaring your existing one unsatisfactory.

 

[littlespark]

There should be a back page to the EICR explaining what the codes mean for the layman.

It says C1 and C2 would require remedial action, not C3

The company that did the EICR maybe err on the side of caution by recommending changing the CU…. or they may be just be touting for extra work…..
Saying that, you don’t have to use the same company that did the report to do the remedials


I’ve read right back, and what I understand, the original installation is rewirable fuses… if it had been left alone, there is no issue.
But you’ve said there’s been some DIY shenanigans… so when that work was done, it should have been done to the regs at the time…. Which possibly would have included adding RCDS.

The company is rightfully covering their own backs… If something does happen, they have recommended upgrading and signed the report.

It is up to you whether you go ahead with the work or not.

It should not stop you getting insurance, as it will be marked “satisfactory”
If it is “unsatisfactory” then they need to have C1 or C2 codes.

 

[brianmoooore]

Is there actually an EICR for this property, or is it just the verbal opinions of the electricians that have looked at it?

 

[Ratmeister]

Is there actually an EICR for this property, or is it just the verbal opinions of the electricians that have looked at it?

It’s just verbal opinions at this stage, they’ve all had a quick look and told me before they start the EICR why it would fail. Ie rewirable fuses or RCD…

 

[Aaron b]

I would C3 the E7 board and C2 no RCDs for the sockets on the other board.

I would likely to be concerned about any DIY work. There's a higher risk where things are dabbled with. I'm generally harsher on the coding in these situations.

When alterations were made is an issue for building control, it might not be noticeable but it should still comply. I don't feel a lighting circuit is less safe installed today without an RCD than 20 years ago.

 

[Ratmeister]

Electrician is also mentioning means of isolation as a problem. Does the fuse box need to have isolation on it? The E7 board does not have isolation on it but it has a switch about 5 metres from it that isolates it.

I'm assuming the older regulations when this was installed didn't require this. Do the latest regulations always require isolation on the fuse box?

 

[pc1966]

There absolutely has to be a means of isolation for any work.

However, there is also a "3m rule" where if the CU is less than 3,m from the supply cut-out and no specific risk of cable damage then you can rely on the CU isolation as enough for "the installation". However, if the distance is above 3m then there should be a switched-fuse or similar just after the meter so the sub-main cable supplying the CU can be isolated for any work, etc.

 

[Aaron b]

Can you upload some photos of the installation? It sounds like you need a proper EICR and that the electrician has been generous in giving the information for free.

 

[Ratmeister]

Can you upload some photos of the installation? It sounds like you need a proper EICR and that the electrician has been generous in giving the information for free.

I had booked the electrician to do the EICR, but when he started testing he said we really should be changing the fuse boxes and do the full testing then. From what I've read and everything he's said, it all makes sense to make the installation safer and better. I just wanted to make sure I understood everything and what the general thoughts were on here. I'd rather not upload photos

 

[timhoward]

I had booked the electrician to do the EICR, but when he started testing he said we really should be changing the fuse boxes and do the full testing then. From what I've read and everything he's said, it all makes sense to make the installation safer and better. I just wanted to make sure I understood everything and what the general thoughts were on here. I'd rather not upload photos

You might find it helpful to download the FREE best practise guide 4.
Not everyone doing EICR's understands the differences between it being safe, dangerous, potentially dangerous, not installed in accordance with latest regs, and not installed as per their personal preference.
(Nonetheless RCD technology is well worth having and fitting it was the first thing I did in my own home when I purchased it.)

 

[mainline]

I had booked the electrician to do the EICR, but when he started testing he said we really should be changing the fuse boxes and do the full testing then. From what I've read and everything he's said, it all makes sense to make the installation safer and better. I just wanted to make sure I understood everything and what the general thoughts were on here. I'd rather not upload photos

I would have though it is a good idea to do the testing before changing the board, as it means you can still leave the good circuits energised while doing any necessary work or maybe new circuits added.

 

[Aaron b]

I would have though it is a good idea to do the testing before changing the board, as it means you can still leave the good circuits energised while doing any necessary work on others.

I wonder if the electrician could see it was going to be hassle and more than he could chew for a EICR. I done one recently where the board was fitted so untidy (by solar guys) I couldn't test without re-wiring it.