Really Need Some advise Urgently

[crazygraham]

Hello Everyone I really need everyone’s help here Reallydo,

I have had a 6KW installation done the other day and it has went horriblywrong, It really has had me very depressed for the last few days now and I needto speak about it to people who might be able to help me,

the system is 2 SMA-3000TL inverters
24 Sharp 250 panels

12 west and 12 east, 3Kw on the front and 3Kw on the back,

when the 1st inverter came out of his van I noticed that it was in an sma2000box he said that the other box had got wet so he just use that box to transportit, the second thing was that the inverter was yellow and was branded Wagner& Co he has said that it is an SMA inverter and is just the same thinghowever it’s still branded as a Wagner & Co not SMA is there any differenceshould I be looking that the SMA inverter is installed ?

Then I also noticed that the cable entry points had been used before and I startedto think that this was not new I asked him straight up about it and he insuredthat he had just received it a few days ago so again I could not say any differentas I had nothing to go on

Now during the installation of the inverters I had to stop them as they hadused 3 sheets of loft chipboard to mount them on but these had not been leveledand where just thrown up the top board was 240mm off to the right and the 2under it were not inline either nor where the groves clicked in rite, and theinverters where not spaced out and unlevel so I had to express the importanceof a tidy and neat installation, however after this I have to say it was donevery neat and tidy however after closer inspection the isolators ore notscrewed down tight to the back board and only one screw holding them on.

when the inverters where 1st switched on I was up within 5 min's and noticedthat the one that I had already thought was not new was reading 606Kwh's When Iquestioned him on this he said that he had just run a simulation on the unitand I responded with that great could you show me how you done it on the otherone he off course changed the subject so I asked a further twice to still gethim to change the subject on both times .so I just left it as I did not reallyhave the information I needed.

The 2nd inverter was reading zero however it has a faulty screen on it and canhardly be read at all.

They could not set up the sunny-beam for me they were only able to connect toone unit at a time and left it saying that they needed a Bluetooth repeater forthem to talk together. I have now commissioned the sunny beam myself after aquick read through the installation guide.

Now I don’t know about this, but they have connected the system into a spare32mcb that is protected with a 30ma rcd now I think I read somewhere that thisis not advised as it can stop the rcd working I don’t know but I bet one of youguys will.

Now I wish that this was the only things that is not right but the worse has tobe that the panels that are on the front of my house do not seem to beinstalled to a great standard they do not line up rite and are sitting of theroof about 150mm from the get go I had said that they where to high but he justkept doing his own thing they did not level the rails at all and the panels arereally bad looking you can clearly see under them and see cables hangingeverywhere now after I had put my foot down he said that he would fix it butthen took his scaffolding down and packed it up so I asked about the work at thefront that he was going to do to fix them he told me the plan he had to use a differentbracket would not work as it was too wide for my tiles. I said that that wasnot good enough and he told me if I can get the brackets trimmed down that hewould fix it the next day so I done just that as I really could not have leftthem the way they were as it is the front of the house.
So the next day came and everything was great he changed the 6 front bracketsbut still did not fix the level problems in fact he has just left it with therails bent and the panels sitting even worse and he refused to adjust the otherbrackets to make the array sit level and neat. there were a few words exchangedwhen he was ready to leave as he off course wanted full payment so we made anagreement that I would hold £500 until he came back to level the panels now theother thing was he said it would be 8 weeks b4 he could get back I was nothappy but was so fed up with everything I just let it go. Now I have to do a transfereeon Monday for him but I think that once he gets it I will never see him againand that he might try and mess with the grant money that I am ament go get.

Later that night I was installing the pc software for the system when I got loggedinto the unit that I had suspected as being second hand I could indeed see thatit had been installed on the 19-7-2012 until a few days b4 my installation andthat there was a total of 606Kwh on it was able to read the production foreveryday so conclusive evidence to prove that this is not new,

I have now sent an email with the data that was on the unit to him expressinghow I am feeling about this, I also think that holding all money as he has beenlying to me from the start and I’m guessing will carry on the same way,
I have been depressed from all this and has really ruined the hole system forme as this is the kind of thing I would be looking at all day paying a lot of interestto it but I can’t even really stand to look at it other to see that its set uprite and working as if he has made this many error's he may have done somethingthat is stopping the system working to its full pontenitional peak performance.

I don’t really know where I stand I was thinking a contract for the works to becompleted and the inverters replaced drawn up by a solicitor,

what would youthink is the best thing for me to do here it really has me in a bad way thanksguys for taking the time to try and help me out

 

[Gavin A]

where in the country are you?

You're right, the inverter is a used unit that's been swapped from another job.

Wagner do offer yellow rebranded SMA inverters, so this in itself shouldn't be an issue.

Rail levelling is basic stuff that makes the difference between an installation looking bad, and a professional looking installation.

 

[steve Leese]

sounds like a realy bad install, don`t pay any money untill you are completely satisfied with the job, that way you hold all the aces.

 

[crazygraham]

I am in bangor Northern ireland mate,

The other thing that i have seen happen twice today is that the inverter drops out it done it twice today each time for about 15mins

do you think that i should get someone else to inspect it and give me details of what has been done wrong ?

everytime i told them that the panels where not level i got told that my roof is not level ? but surely that is what the adjustment is for on the brackets

what do you think i should do here i really dont know thanks for the help

 

[steve Leese]

Your contract (if you have one ) has already been broken by the installer by way of the secound hand inverter so pay for an independant inspection of your system, when you have the results you can go back to the installer and ask him to rectify the points of the report.
I`m sure there are reputable installers in your area.

 

[crazygraham]

Well yeah I guess that the contract is now null and void so I think that I shall remind him of that.

I do want to get an inspection done on the full system 2 see what all has been not done rite I also know that he has broke many of my tiles.

Would any one be able to recommend anyone in the Belfast area?

The way he has left me feeling I think I would also be happy for him to give me my depiset back and for him to take his equipment away

 

[Eco Deal]

spend the 500 on sorting the system do not give it the installer!

was he cheapest quote ?

 

[crazygraham]

I have held over 6000 on him at the moment he is expecting a bank transfare tomorrow.

He was the cheapest quote and now I know why

 

[moggy1968]

I think the inverter should tell you how long it has been operating for. Can't remember but have a look in the manual (that he should have left!)

On the side of the inverter is a data sticker with the serial number on. I think the model of inverter is also on here.
Also, switch the system off, then back on again and time how long the inverters take to fire up, if it's shorter than 2 minutes they haven't been set up for the UK.

It is a requirement (of the DTi Guide I think, but certainly one of the sets of regs) that cables are tied up so they don't chafe, also they should be protected on entry into the roof and the roof waterproofing should not be compromised, i.e. by making a hole in the felt.

It is usually for the system to sit off the roof a bit to allow airflow behind the panels, photos would help.

NO you can't share an RCD with other items.

just read as far as the bit about the inverter hours, yep, thats a sdecond hand one alright!!

He is not allowed to withold certification pending payment. Contact MCS and REAL if he does for advice on what to do.
If he does and you suffer financial loss as a result he could be liable for your losses, make sure he knows that!

Finally, speak to trading standards and citizens advice as soon as possible.

post as many photos on here as you can, you can then use the comments of other installers on here as evidence.

 

[crazygraham]

Hi moggy thanks for that information i think a call to mcs will be needed as he has told me that he will not be giving me any paper work untill he has payment in full.
I rember seeing the total hours run i must look again noe and see what its is .
and again he has shared the rch so i guess that will have to be changed.
its abit dark now but i will get photos tomorrow when i get home from work and post them up for sure to see what has to be said. It really has just turned into a nightmare i have been busting to get these done for ages and now the thought of it makes me feel sick to the bone.

 

[Gavin A]

I think that legally you probably have to give them chance to put right the issues before you can with hold the money and / or pay another company.

This is also part of the REAL code, so you're supposed to only go to them after you've failed to get satisfaction from the companies complaints process.

I'd write a clear list of issues that you want addressed before payment can be made, then email it to the company and ask that this be dealt with as a complaint under their official complaints process, and advise that you will be withholding payment until this is rectified. I do think you're probably on dodgy ground withholding the entire amount though, as they have delivered the bulk of the contract - it's fairly standard practice in these situations to pay most of it and with hold eg 10% or maybe the equivalent of what it'd be likely to cost to get someone else to rectify the problems, so I'd think £1000 max.

WIth holding it all could well cause cash flow issues for the company which could make things more difficult for them with other jobs etc that then might actually delay them being able to get your system sorted, as well as wasting your and their time with lots of arguments over the rights and wrongs of the situation.

 

[moggy1968]

just the inverters worth the grand. I reckon you gotta be looking at a holdback of 2k

 

[Gavin A]

I'd forgotten about the inverter.

btw, It might be worth double checking with SMA and maybe the police that the inverter hasn't been reported stolen, ie via the serial number. There was someone a while back going around offering cheap inverters of dubious provenance up here.

 

[whinmoor]

Me thinks the team is gonna have a field-day looking at these snaps tomorrow.

It sounds like a pretty sloppy installation with duff equipment and a shocking attitude.

However, I agree that you should pay some of the outstanding amount as you do have some costly kit. But, I think it's fair to retain a couple of grand until you are satisfied with the job and have the paperwork.

 

[sedgy34]

What's this company called? You could check with your local trading standards just to see if there is any more complaints about these guys

 

[Rockingit]

Personally, I would NOT pay anything today, write up a list of your concerns and put to the installer, tell him that you will pay him 50% of balance on condition of his acceptance in writing to correct the errors with a 50% retainer for a further week after his claimed correction. If he disputes your concerns then tell him you are witholding all monies until you have had an independent inspection done.

 

[Dave-geo]

Are the inverters still installed on loft chipboard? Is that ok? Thought it needed to be a fireproof backboard?

 

[Somecamel]

Reagrds to the inverters cutting out for 15 mins at a time, possibly an over voltage problem? Are you in the sticks or a built up area?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Personally, I would NOT pay anything today, write up a list of your concerns and put to the installer, tell him that you will pay him 50% of balance on condition of his acceptance in writing to correct the errors with a 50% retainer for a further week after his claimed correction. If he disputes your concerns then tell him you are witholding all monies until you have had an independent inspection done.

Thats more like it. Sounds an awful awful job. Don't be bullied into anything at the moment you hold the cards (cash). Gut tells me if you cough up you'll never see them again!!!

 

[Rockingit]

Gut tells me if you cough up you'll never see them again!!!

Me too!!

 

[finchy]

yep how many installs have I seen using chipboard it should be fire checked board....

report them to REAL and MCS ...need to kick out the cowboys !

 

[SolarCity]

My advice is to make a list of issues you have and then phone them up and explain your concern. If they start playing up then explain that you are going to contact MCS and REAL to ask their advice. Then take it from there.

 

[yellowvanman]

He is not allowed to withold certification pending payment. Contact MCS and REAL if he does for advice on what to do.

Whilst he cannot withhold certification he can withhold a receipt that shows ownership which is needed for the FIT application.

 

[crazygraham]

Well thanks everyone for the advice on this.
I am only just home from work and it is now pitch dark so I can't get a proper photo to post for all to see.

I have also had some good communication with the ones involved as a result of an email that I had sent to him on Sunday. He has come clean with the second hand inverter and that the panels are not correct he has said that due to personal circumstances my installation suffered and that it is now his highest priorty to rectify the errors that are on my system. So I am hoping that it should be sorted I hope.
I have also told him that as a result of what has happened I have lost trust in him and set out how the job will progress and how the payments will be made and when. So I have told him I will work out how much I owe him for the equipment less the two inverters and £500 so all but £2500 will be paid to him he will then use the screen in the second hand inverter to replace the faulty one and supply one new inverter to replace the second hand one. All Certs will be issued asap so the grant can be received and once it is the last £2500 will be paid to him and by doing this it give me a safety net knowing that he can't try and mess with or delay the grant.
Also when the inverters are sorted he will also remove all the panels of the front of the house and adjust the rails to there lowest setting that allows the array to sit completely level.

So I have to say that I'm very happy with this news as I have been worried sick incase he would not admit to his errors but he has and seems keen to put it all right including removing it inverters from my RCD.

As far as the fire board is this a big problem should I look fir this to be done or should it be ok ?

 

[whinmoor]

Are the inverters in the loft? If so, you could go up there with your camera and we can give our views on the electrical work? Same with any work he's done near your fuse-box.

 

[crazygraham]

Ok I will get a snap of the area where the inverters are installed.
It will prob be in about an hour as just about to get the kids to bed and if I go anywhere near them b4 that I will have a devorce to sort out as well lol

 

[moggy1968]

it's a mute point about the fireboard.
There is rather mixed views on this.

- - - Updated - - -

Whilst he cannot withhold certification he can withhold a receipt that shows ownership which is needed for the FIT application.

my last 3 installs only needed the contract

 

[crazygraham]

Reagrds to the inverters cutting out for 15 mins at a time, possibly an over voltage problem? Are you in the sticks or a built up area?

In a built up area mate though there isno shading at all.
The voltage seems to sit in and around 180v +/- 5% and I guess thatsabout rite for two strings of six I know the open boltage is 37.3 and I think under load it dropes to 30.3 so I guess that the 180v is bang on. Also see the way I have two strings I will get double the amps but half the voltage is that better than having all the panels on one string and having a higher voltage with less amps?

 

[crazygraham]

here is the installation in the loft as you can see it dose look ok but it was only after i had stoped them and explaned that it had to be neat and tidy as to start it was just being banged up .

 

[screwdriver]

I suppose the 2nd ac isolator is there somewhere???? DC isolators could be classed as being a little close to the top of the inverters and so may cause a little bit of airflow restriction, doubt if it would be that bad on an east/west roof though. Gen meter by inverters has never really been our preferred location, especially if the client is elderly and can't climb into the loft every quarter to read the thing!

 

[Earthstore]

That looks quite neat, well apart from the board that is, it should really have two AC isolators though, one for each inverter.

The tripping/high voltage that has been referred to is the AC voltage, if it is quite high coming into the house IE around 250v, and the AC cable to the inverters is too small it can cause the inverter to go over voltage, it is a very common install fault.

I hope this helps.

 

[crazygraham]

There is only the one ac isolator installed should there be a second one at the other side of the meter ?
I had asked for the gen meter to be in the electric box but was told it had to go up above.

 

[whinmoor]

At first glance it looks neat, tidy and symmetrical.

Two things jump out at me. Firstly, the lack of a fireproof board. We always use one when installing on wood. We tend to use plywood rather than chipboard.

Secondly, the DC isolators don’t look very far from the inverter. According to the installation instructions, there should be 300mm ventilation clearance above the inverter. Page 16 of this: View attachment SB30TL_40TL_50TL-IA-IEN120231.pdf.

You can see some of our installations as case studies on our website. We don’t normally attempt to conceal the cables when they are in a loft.

 

[crazygraham]

That looks quite neat, well apart from the board that is, it should really have two AC isolators though, one for each inverter.

The tripping/high voltage that has been referred to is the AC voltage, if it is quite high coming into the house IE around 250v, and the AC cable to the inverters is too small it can cause the inverter to go over voltage, it is a very common install fault.

I hope this helps.

Should there be one for each inverter then should I ask for another ?

They have used a 6mm cable from the loft to the consumer unit is that cable size ok?
And a 4mm cables for the dc array side.

 

[Earthstore]

The generation meter is normally mounted where you can read it easily, IE downstairs.
There can be a tiny advantage in having it close to the inverter though, and that is it does not suffer from any voltage losses in the cable, but most installers would install it where you can see it easily.

 

[Earthstore]

At a guess, and it depends on the cable length, 6mm should be OK, but without all the full spec you can not calculate it.

 

[MorganPVI]

SMA installation manual clearly states:

- Inverters to be mounted on heatproof surface, if not a brick wall then a fire proof board
- Each inverter must be on a separate MCB - therefore with this config you;d want 2 AC isolators
- RCD should be 100ma - if RCD is required

To be fair I was expecting a real dogs dinner, much neater than I'd have thought based on the OP's description. Cable sizing seems to be correct, better than the 1.5mm cable some muppet was running a 4000tl on in a previously posted horror story.

 

[BruceB]

I would agree pretty much with what has been said so far but with a couple of tweaks:

- Each inverter must be on its own mcb to meet the manufacturers instructions as already stated. A separate ac isolator for each (big red rotary knob), whilst useful is not essential and you could have one covering both inverters as they have done, because the inverters are right beside each other.

- If you have an rcd then it should be 200mA to meet the manufacturers instructions. Quote below is from the SMA rcd selection manual:
"For every connected inverter, a rated residual current of 100 mA has to be planned. The RCD's rated residual
current must at least correspond to the sum of the rated residual currents of the connected inverters. That means
that, if, for example, 3 transformerless inverters are connected, the rated residual current of the RCD has to be
a minimum of 300 mA."

As others have said, at first glance it is neat, which is a good sign.

 

[finchy]

As above .......

plus and the meter looks like its missing a Seal !

The installer must have missed the MCS Metering guidance

"5. Sealing

The meter and terminal cover should be sealed to ensure that the customer cannot​

access either.
"

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I would agree pretty much with what has been said so far but with a couple of tweaks:

- Each inverter must be on its own mcb to meet the manufacturers instructions as already stated. A separate ac isolator for each (big red rotary knob), whilst useful is not essential and you could have one covering both inverters as they have done, because the inverters are right beside each other.

- If you have an rcd then it should be 200mA to meet the manufacturers instructions. Quote below is from the SMA rcd selection manual:
"For every connected inverter, a rated residual current of 100 mA has to be planned. The RCD's rated residual
current must at least correspond to the sum of the rated residual currents of the connected inverters. That means
that, if, for example, 3 transformerless inverters are connected, the rated residual current of the RCD has to be
a minimum of 300 mA."

As others have said, at first glance it is neat, which is a good sign.

Neatness takes time, time is money. As said always a good sign in my opinion. also shows perhaps a little pride in their work.

 

[moggy1968]

I've never done a 2 inverter install, but am interested as to why 2 MCBs. That would require 2 meters. When we have discussed this before it was suggested to run the inverters in parallel at the isolator, then to the meter and on to a single MCB.

Looks a neat job, which, as above bodes well. there should be a second AC isolator at the DB, where you would usually also have the meter. I am guessing there is a space issue there.

6 mm cable is almost certainly fine.
The number od DC isolators suggests each array is split into 2 strings. I don't understand why they would do that. I would have thought each array to a single string to the inverter..

personally I would have gone for a single 2 MPPT inverter but thats just a matter of choice.

 

[sedgy34]

I suppose the 2nd ac isolator is there somewhere???? DC isolators could be classed as being a little close to the top of the inverters and so may cause a little bit of airflow restriction, doubt if it would be that bad on an east/west roof though. Gen meter by inverters has never really been our preferred location, especially if the client is elderly and can't climb into the loft every quarter to read the thing!

i agree with the 2nd ac isolator but everything else (behave)

 

[SolarCity]

I've never done a 2 inverter install, but am interested as to why 2 MCBs. That would require 2 meters. When we have discussed this before it was suggested to run the inverters in parallel at the isolator, then to the meter and on to a single MCB.

Not if you connect the meter before a consumer unit supplying the inverters only.

 

[crazygraham]

I've never done a 2 inverter install, but am interested as to why 2 MCBs. That would require 2 meters. When we have discussed this before it was suggested to run the inverters in parallel at the isolator, then to the meter and on to a single MCB.

Looks a neat job, which, as above bodes well. there should be a second AC isolator at the DB, where you would usually also have the meter. I am guessing there is a space issue there.

6 mm cable is almost certainly fine.
The number od DC isolators suggests each array is split into 2 strings. I don't understand why they would do that. I would have thought each array to a single string to the inverter..

Would the system preform better as one large string as aposed to 2 smaller stirngs ?

personally I would have gone for a single 2 MPPT inverter but thats just a matter of choice.

And yes it is very tidy job that has been done in the loft but only after I had stopes them when they started to do it and ask for it to be done very neat with everything planed out rather than just chucked on so with that they removed the inverters and sorted out the level of the back board.
I just wish the panels where as neat as it is the first thing you seen when you turn the corner into my street. I have been promised that all the panels will get removed and the rails will get lowered and levelled to a flawless standard.

I really want to get the photos up for you guys to see and comment. For all I know he used a cheaper fixing bracket or the wrong fixings and that could be why it is so high off the roof.

 

[BruceB]

To answer Moggy's point on why two mcbs, it is because if you only have a single mcb it might be too big to:
- provide fault protection for the cable to a single inverter;
- provide overload protection for a single inverter; and
- you would not have discrimination.

Now you can argue the detail of all those points in any particular situation, but I cannot think of any other reasons the manufacturers would specify it.

Another point on the installation is that it has been in done an over complex and expensive way (probably because that is what they had on the shelf). As it is east/west with neither side pushing out full power simultaneously then a single 5000TL inverter would have done it. Indeed depending on the precise panels used a 4000TL could do it according to sunny design.

 

[moggy1968]

yes, I would argue the detail! Single 20amp MCB would provide adequate protection of all circuits. Discrimination I think is not really a big issue on this type of install. Discrimination is to ensure that for safety reasons in a house you have at least lights or sockets working in a room if a fault causes a shared RCD to trip or is switched off. You could take it to it's ultimate conclusion and say every socket should have it's own RCBO to provide discrimination!
but I wouldn't argue with the rest of what you say, I too would have gone for a single inverter. I suspect the issue of the second hand inverter answers the question on this. As you say, it's probably what they had on the shelf. A 5000TL would work much nearer to it's max for more of the time than 2 3000s, which means greater efficiency.

 

[trev]

My question is why have they used a second hand inverter? Is it all they can afford (which would be an appalling concept) or have they taken it out from somewhere else owing to a fault

 

[telectrix]

a fault, or possibly a non-payment .

 

[trev]

Either way, putting in second hand kit when a customer is, quite reasonably, expecting new is inexcusable

 

[moggy1968]

or decomission?
A company we did some subbing for had to decommission an install and refund the money because they were so rubbish. We spent as much time trying to placate irate customers as doing the electrics! In the end we stopped working for them.

Thats a lot of expensive kit to throw away, so I would guess they have tried to reuse it.
interesting you say the panels aren't the ones you requested. Not related to the inverter issue I'm sure:lipsrsealed2: