Replacement shower

[keniff]

If your replacing a shower like for like power wise, are you under any obligation to supply rcd for this? As no alteration has been made to the circuit and no change of opd has been done?

 

[Octopus]

What do the manufacturers installation instructions say? That is what I'd be checking.

 

[onions1066]

Manufactures instructions supersede bs7671 so I would agree. Check instructions.

 

[shocking_eg]

100% sure that the instructions will state that the shower is to be supplied by a 30ma RCD protective device.

i would be fitting one either way...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The manufacturer's instructions should be taken account of.
However there is no requirement in BS7671 for you to provide RCD protetion when replacing an item of equipment.

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

No requirement for RCD when changing like for like accessory

 

[onions1066]

If the manufactures instructions state to be rcd protected it does not matter what bs7671 says it must be rcd protected. They supersede bs7671

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If the manufactures instructions state to be rcd protected it does not matter what bs7671 says it must be rcd protected. They supersede bs7671

No they don't.
The manufacturer's instructions are required to be taken account of.
510.3 "Every item of equipment shall be selected and erected so as to allow compliance with the regulations stated in this chapter and the relevant regulations in other parts of BS7671 and shall take account of manufacturers' instructions."

 

[Geoffsd]

134.1.1

Good workmanship ... Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

134.1.1

Good workmanship ... Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.

That relates to the process of erection, i.e. how high up the wall, the distance from windows or doors etc.

With regards to manufactures' specifiing the provision of an RCD in their instructions.
As far as I'm aware, most appear to use the word 'should', or in the case of triton, state that the instructions are for guidance.
As far as I'm aware, the only condition that must be met in all cases, is that if installing a 230V shower, it must be connected to a 230V/240V supply.

 

[onions1066]

Had this with niceic before. Manufacturers instruction supersede 7671 . No more to be said. If you do not install to manufactures instructions it will not comply as they will never instruct you to do anything against the regs but they may ask you to go over and above the minimum standard.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Had this with niceic before. Manufacturers instruction supersede 7671 . No more to be said. If you do not install to manufactures instructions it will not comply as they will never instruct you to do anything against the regs but they may ask you to go over and above the minimum standard.

Could I suggest that you find a set of instructions where it is states that an RCD must installed?

 

[onions1066]

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

[eagles]

I've had a job where I replaced like for like and manufacturers instructions stated must be rcd protected. Fitting a rcd then requires an EIC which ment upgrading the earthing arrangements.

 

[onions1066]

Thank you eagles as I stated earlier to spin

 

[GLENNSPARK]

as has been said...check manufactures instructions....
i personaly would RCD it but...

 

[sparkless]

if its like for like then no,
but if you do then cert has to be supplied and additional testing, so would influence the cost

 

[onions1066]

as has been said...check manufactures instructions....
i personaly would RCD it but...

But what? So you wouldn't comply?

- - - Updated - - -

Like for like still requires a cert

 

[UNG]

Had this with niceic before. Manufacturers instruction supersede 7671 . No more to be said. If you do not install to manufactures instructions it will not comply as they will never instruct you to do anything against the regs but they may ask you to go over and above the minimum standard.

I assume if manufacturers instructions supersede BS7671 then this would have to be listed as a departure from the regs on any certificate

This could also be interesting in a court if the manufacturers instructions due to errors did not fully meet the requirements of the regs and an incident occurred

 

[onions1066]

I assume if manufacturers instructions supersede BS7671 then this would have to be listed as a departure from the regs on any certificate

This could also be interesting in a court if the manufacturers instructions due to errors did not fully meet the requirements of the regs and an incident occurred

my driving licence doesn't tell me not to run people over, but it doesn't mean I can

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and when did i not mention issuing a cert eh?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Here are some excerpts from manufacturers' instructions for fiting electric showers:

Triton:
The following notes are for guidance only:
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must
be installed in all UK electric and pumped
shower circuits. This may be part of the
consumer unit or a separate unit.

Gainsborough:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENT DEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL
UK 230-240V ELECTRIC SHOWERS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER UNIT OR A SEPARATE UNIT.

Mira:
It is strongly recommended that a 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) is
included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.

Aqualisa:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENTDEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL UK 230-240V ELECTRIC
SHOWERS AND PUMPED CIRCUITS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER
UNIT OR A SEPERATE UNIT.

Creda and MX don't mention anything about RCDs whatsoever.

Who are these manufacturers' that state an RCD must be fitted in their instructions?

 

[onions1066]

Ha ha sparkless not you. Sorry glen I take it back. Humble pie.

 

[onions1066]

Instructions for Triton:
The following notes are for guidance only:
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must
be installed in all UK electric and pumped
shower circuits. This may be part of the
consumer unit or a separate unit.

Instructions for Gainsborough:IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENT DEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL
UK 230-240V ELECTRIC SHOWERS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER UNIT OR A SEPARATE UNIT.

Instructions for Mira:It is strongly recommended that a 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) is
included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.

Instructions for Aqualisa:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENTDEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL UK 230-240V ELECTRIC
SHOWERS AND PUMPED CIRCUITS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER
UNIT OR A SEPERATE UNIT.

Creda and MX don't mention anything about RCDs.

That's my point spin. Your arguing against yourself. I said yes you said no

- - - Updated - - -

Instructions for Triton:
The following notes are for guidance only:
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must
be installed in all UK electric and pumped
shower circuits. This may be part of the
consumer unit or a separate unit.

Instructions for Gainsborough:IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENT DEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL
UK 230-240V ELECTRIC SHOWERS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER UNIT OR A SEPARATE UNIT.

Instructions for Mira:It is strongly recommended that a 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) is
included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.

Instructions for Aqualisa:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENTDEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL UK 230-240V ELECTRIC
SHOWERS AND PUMPED CIRCUITS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER
UNIT OR A SEPERATE UNIT.

Creda and MX don't mention anything about RCDs.

That's my point spin. Your arguing against yourself. I said yes you said no

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Ha ha sparkless not you. Sorry glen I take it back. Humble pie.

no probs onions:biggrin:

 

[shocking_eg]

Eitherway

Wouldn't you install one anyway ?

 

[onions1066]

Instructions for Triton:
The following notes are for guidance only:
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must
be installed in all UK electric and pumped
shower circuits. This may be part of the
consumer unit or a separate unit.

Instructions for Gainsborough:IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENT DEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL
UK 230-240V ELECTRIC SHOWERS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER UNIT OR A SEPARATE UNIT.

Instructions for Mira:It is strongly recommended that a 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) is
included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.

Instructions for Aqualisa:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENTDEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL UK 230-240V ELECTRIC
SHOWERS AND PUMPED CIRCUITS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER
UNIT OR A SEPERATE UNIT.

Creda and MX don't mention anything about RCDs.

That's my point your arguing against yourself spin. I said yes you said no

 

[Sparkyphill]

Did someone mention fitting an RCD ?...............I'm keeping my mouth shut :leaving:

 

[onions1066]

Thanks glen you got me in a fluster then and I have posted the same reply 3 times.

 

[onions1066]

Sparky phill you need to pick your corner now no time for fence sitters, rcd or not. Don't take too long to think about it they are starting to outnumber me. I'm sinking :thinking2:

 

[Geoffsd]

Triton:
The following notes are for guidance only:
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must
be installed in all UK electric and pumped
shower circuits. This may be part of the
consumer unit or a separate unit.

Gainsborough:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENT DEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL
UK 230-240V ELECTRIC SHOWERS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER UNIT OR A SEPARATE UNIT.

Mira:
It is strongly recommended that a 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) is
included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.

Aqualisa:
IN THE INTERESTS OF ELECTRICAL SAFETY, A 30mA RESIDUAL CURRENTDEVICE (RCD) SHOULD BE INSTALLED IN ALL UK 230-240V ELECTRIC
SHOWERS AND PUMPED CIRCUITS. THIS MAY BE PART OF A CONSUMER
UNIT OR A SEPERATE UNIT.

Creda and MX don't mention anything about RCDs whatsoever.

Who are these manufacturers' that state an RCD must be fitted in their instructions?

It's interesting that the instructions vary but the last line is identical in all of them.

 

[onions1066]

Regulation 701.411.3.3
In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower there is a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including the lighting and shower circuits.

That regulation along with manufactures instructions is enough for me to interpret rcd protection is required

 

[keniff]

Well for my peice of mind I'm going to fit a rcd but this then means I'm going to have to upgrade the bonding and probably price me out of it, but to be fair I have always thought on a like for like swap no obligation to bring it up to 17th regs. Glad I got both sides of the arguments though! Thanks guys

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think that's so people won't be put off thinking they'll have to have a new CU.
However all of the instructions recomend that MCBs are used, some actually state that re-wireable fuses are not to be used.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Regulation 701.411.3.3
In specific locations such as those containing a bath or shower there is a requirement to provide RCD protection on all circuits, including the lighting and shower circuits.

That regulation along with manufactures instructions is enough for me to interpret rcd protection is required

The OP is not installing a circuit.
He is replacing an item of equimpent.
As such there is no requirement for him to install RCD protection.

 

[keniff]

Onions if you had a call out for a broken pull cord in a bathroom would you insist on an rcd upon replacement? Not being funny just curious don't take it the wrong way just that's what that reg states right?

 

[onions1066]

The OP is not installing a circuit.
He is replacing an item of equimpent.
As such there is no requirement for him to install RCD protection.

I was just quoting that along with the instructions as a pair. Stating that is enough for me to rcd protect

 

[onions1066]

A piece of current carrying equipment of 9.5kw is not the same as a pulls switch. Not comparing eggs with eggs.
To be honest I pretty much insist on full rcd protection for most domestic situations I encounter, if the client doesn't want this go elsewhere, it's simple.

 

[Sparkyphill]

I was just quoting that along with the instructions as a pair. Stating that is enough for me to rcd protect

As with previous "chats" i've had on here regarding RCD protection I would RECOMMEND to the customer that one is installed however in this case your not obliged to fit one

 

[onions1066]

This conversation is what I believe is half the problem of what is belittling our trade, guys working to the minimum standard rather than the higher standard which I would expect from fully qualified electricians. If we all worked to a higher standard customers would expect to pay the price for a quality job but unfortunately there are people out there working to a minimum standard which people producing a quality SAFE job cannot compete with. It's all good until there is another accident then people will say, " I wish I put an rcd on that shower " too late. Just my opinion.

 

[keniff]

I completely agree but I was just pointing out that if a light or shower or socket front etc need replacing where do you draw the line with regards to adding rcd in like for like, In the real world I do recommend rcd but I don't think they are the be all and end all I see them as a second to good earthing and correct selection of opd

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This conversation is what I believe is half the problem of what is belittling our trade, guys working to the minimum standard rather than the higher standard which I would expect from fully qualified electricians. If we all worked to a higher standard customers would expect to pay the price for a quality job but unfortunately there are people out there working to a minimum standard which people producing a quality SAFE job cannot compete with. It's all good until there is another accident then people will say, " I wish I put an rcd on that shower " too late. Just my opinion.

That is not the case at all.
As far as I'm concerned, we are discussing the requirements of the Regulations.
The fact that you, I or anyone else would fit an RCD, does not therefore mean that it is a requiremnt of the Regulations that an RCD be fitted.
The fact that electric showers have been fitted for donkeys years without RCD protection is neither here nor there.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I completely agree but I was just pointing out that if a light or shower or socket front etc need replacing where do you draw the line with regards to adding rcd in like for like, In the real world I do recommend rcd but I don't think they are the be all and end all I see them as a second to good earthing and correct selection of opd

look, given the nature of what were dealing with here (shower) whether or not the maufacurers state that RCD protection is to be installed is neither here nor there....it surely would be prudent to put the damn thing on an RCD....its about using your own judgement as well....i mean what happened to that eh?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and i find it highly unlikely that an RCD wouldn`t be mentioned within manufactures instructions anyway

 

[Deleted member 26818]

and i find it highly unlikely that an RCD wouldn`t be mentioned within manufactures instructions anyway

They are mentioned in some manufacturers' instructions, but in those instances it's only as a recommendation that one be installed.
As can be seen from the quotes I posted in my earlier post.

 

[keniff]

Yes there were a few posts earlier about rcd mentioned in the instructions but not stating it had to be only should, as I said I'm going to quote for rcd but wanted to see others views as I'm gonna be priced out by the next guy who just swaps it over! Then says I'm the crook making more work than needed. Although ill be making it safer

 

[GLENNSPARK]

They are mentioned in some manufacturers' instructions, but in those instances it's only as a recommendation that one be installed.
As can be seen from the quotes I posted in my earlier post.

and so common sense has to take precident here....cost has to come secondry to safety spin...

 

[electric will]

Shower will probably be ok without rcd, as long as the cast iron bath tub your stood in isn't bonded! :sad3:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

wont help your cause under fault though will

 

[Sparkyphill]

and so common sense has to take precident here....cost has to come secondry to safety spin...

Agreed but as I said on another thread certain jobs are price sensitive, yes you can take the moral high ground and spec every job up "the way it should be done" but if that just makes you a busy fool running around all day pricing work you won't win what's the point ?