Rewiring Ceiling Light

[Rincewindwiz]

OK so I screwed up!
Went to replace my daughters ceiling fitment (old one yellow and paint spattered) expecting to detach the lamp, remove the old cable, attach the new cable and screw the rose into the existing ceiling fitment.

Good plan which failed miserably when the new rose failed to screw onto the old ceiling fitment. OK so I took a photo (turned out badly - out of focus) of the existing wiring; removed the old ceiling fitment, attached the new. redid the wires (3 cables 6 wires, 3 earth wires) and got it wrong.

Most of the light switches in the flat are all screwed up in that they activate other fittings!.

I plan to trace the wires to the switch (so at least I get those right) and hopefully the rest follow a standard ring main diagram. Is this the best I can do to unscramble this mess?

Thanks for any help

 

[telectrix]

your 3 cables are:

1. L & N feed.
2. L & N out to next light.
3. Switch wire, red (or brown) to switch common. black (or blue) switched L from switch L1. this should be sleeved with red (or brown).

what you should have in the light rose is 3 reds in centre terminal, 2 blacks in N terminal, goes to lamp blue. then the remaining black to lamp brown. the trick is determining which black is the switched L. need a meter to test. the switch cable is the one that shows open/closed when you operate the switch. ( testing done with supply isolated). if you post your location, one of us may be close to sort it for you. it's only a half hour's job.

 

[Pete999]

OK so I screwed up!
Went to replace my daughters ceiling fitment (old one yellow and paint spattered) expecting to detach the lamp, remove the old cable, attach the new cable and screw the rose into the existing ceiling fitment.

Good plan which failed miserably when the new rose failed to screw onto the old ceiling fitment. OK so I took a photo (turned out badly - out of focus) of the existing wiring; removed the old ceiling fitment, attached the new. redid the wires (3 cables 6 wires, 3 earth wires) and got it wrong.

Most of the light switches in the flat are all screwed up in that they activate other fittings!.

I plan to trace the wires to the switch (so at least I get those right) and hopefully the rest follow a standard ring main diagram. Is this the best I can do to unscramble this mess?

Thanks for any help

You probably have like you say 3 x cables, live feed in live feed to next light and a cable to the switch, unwise to tell you what to do as I don't like untrained people messing with electrics, it can and often does end a travesty, if not a tragedy best advice get an Electrician to put up your new fitting, 1/2 to an hours work, not an expensive option for peace of mind is it?
Good point Tel tell us where you are someone may offer to do the job for you, if you are near Northampton I'm your Man.

 

[telectrix]

SNAP.!

 

[Richard Burns]

Be safe and not dead, switch off the power to the lighting circuit first.
Follow Tel's advice

(Your location should be Discworld not Earth)

 

[westward10]

All above correct but the only deviation from above is the cable to the switch maybe a twin red.

 

[slingshot2000]

All above correct but the only deviation from above is the cable to the switch maybe a twin red.

And if it is a twin red it will be even easier (for an electrician) to sort in a couple of minutes.

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Thanks guys.
I am not an electrician but do have a degree in electrical engineering so understand the basics (pull the fuse before you start!). Also have circuit tester and voltmeter so, armed with this excellent advice, I'm off after lunch to try to sort it.

If all fails you will probably see a plume of smoke from somewhere in N Watford as another ego goes up in flames!

 

[Rincewindwiz]

PS Thats N Watford near Ankmorpork, of course!

 

[littlespark]

Youve got a number of possible issues here. The most important is identifying the switchwire. If you get that wrong, then your room switch becomes a short circuit between live and neutral.
The switch isn't going to like that.
The circuit breaker isn't going to like that.
The poor sod operating the switch for you is certainly not going to like it.

Joking aside, the suggestion of getting a qualified electrician is maybe not the cheapest option, but certainly the safest.

 

[Spoon]

Youve got a number of possible issues here. The most important is identifying the switchwire. If you get that wrong, then your room switch becomes a short circuit between live and neutral.
The switch isn't going to like that.
The circuit breaker isn't going to like that.
The poor sod operating the switch for you is certainly not going to like it.

Joking aside, the suggestion of getting a qualified electrician is maybe not the cheapest option, but certainly the safest.

Apparently the OP had a degree in electrical engineering. Surely somewhere in that degree they were taught how to do basic testing?
He should be able to do this himself.

 

[Squid]

Apparently the OP had a degree in electrical engineering. Surely somewhere in that degree they were taught how to do basic testing?
He should be able to do this himself.

Lol, we've all worked with "graduates" in the past........

 

[Spoon]

Lol, we've all worked with "graduates" in the past........

But it's usually common sense they are missing.
Always remember a bloke at our works who broke one of his shoe laces. When he got a new pair of laces he took his other shoe off. I asked what he was doing. Apparently he was copying how the laces where done on the shoe.

 

[elsparko]

But it's usually common sense they are missing.
Always remember a bloke at our works who broke one of his shoe laces. When he got a new pair of laces he took his other shoe off. I asked what he was doing. Apparently he was copying how the laces where done on the shoe.

i do this, i like my trainers/shoes to be symmetrical , if hes just copying and not doing it for aesthetic reasons then i agree hes a dolt

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Hey give me a break. I did hte degree over 40 years ago!!.
Anyway. attempt 1 was a disaster (blew a fuse!). Switch is grey and red and somewhere in the celinign it becomes black and red!!. Still traced that. Wired up as (I understood I was) advised (3 reds in the middle); Grey (black) switch to lamp, other two blacks together. Switching the light on blew a fuse

I think there is something non-stanadrd going on here. Why in my first miswired attempt did several other lamps on the circuit change and/or other switches affected different lamps?

Original wiring of ceiling rose was
Red to lamp
black and two reds together
other two blacks together
Dont know which of these blacks is the switch

So I can identify the switch wires. The others are ring main. So I am trying to connect ring main to ring main (black and red) and then conect ring main to switch to lamp to ring main. Yes? I wonder if ring main red is actually red!!!

 

[elsparko]

Hey give me a break. I did hte degree over 40 years ago!!.
Anyway. attempt 1 was a disaster (blew a fuse!). Switch is grey and red and somewhere in the celinign it becomes black and red!!. Still traced that. Wired up as (I understood I was) advised (3 reds in the middle); Grey (black) switch to lamp, other two blacks together. Switching the light on blew a fuse

I think there is something non-stanadrd going on here. Why in my first miswired attempt did several other lamps on the circuit change and/or other switches affected different lamps?

Original wiring of ceiling rose was
Red to lamp
black and two reds together
other two blacks together
Dont know which of these blacks is the switch

So I can identify the switch wires. The others are ring main. So I am trying to connect ring main to ring main (black and red) and then conect ring main to switch to lamp to ring main. Yes? I wonder if ring main red is actually red!!!

lights are radial circuits, what youre going to end up with is a mess of unconnected cables and no lighting throughout your house if you carry on

 

[Squid]

But it's usually common sense they are missing.
Always remember a bloke at our works who broke one of his shoe laces. When he got a new pair of laces he took his other shoe off. I asked what he was doing. Apparently he was copying how the laces where done on the shoe.

Snapped not broke and anyways I always replace both shoe laces at the same time and Telectrix tells me you are still on velcro fasteners for your footwear ;o))))))

 

[telectrix]

Snapped not broke and anyways I always replace both shoe laces at the same time and Telectrix tells me you are still on velcro fasteners for your footwear ;o))))))

velcro??? silly arse. up here in the north where men are men, we nail shoes to our feet.

 

[Darkwood]

Can we all refrain from the cheap quips towards the OP, we will not allow the kind of replies we are seeing carry on.
(Since been deleted)

If you have positive or negative advice for the OP then please post it as long as it is respectful and constructive. Let's not continue to see the thread taken off course any further.

 

[Richard Burns]

Hey give me a break. I did hte degree over 40 years ago!!.
Anyway. attempt 1 was a disaster (blew a fuse!). Switch is grey and red and somewhere in the celinign it becomes black and red!!. Still traced that. Wired up as (I understood I was) advised (3 reds in the middle); Grey (black) switch to lamp, other two blacks together. Switching the light on blew a fuse

I think there is something non-stanadrd going on here. Why in my first miswired attempt did several other lamps on the circuit change and/or other switches affected different lamps?

Original wiring of ceiling rose was
Red to lamp
black and two reds together
other two blacks together
Dont know which of these blacks is the switch

So I can identify the switch wires. The others are ring main. So I am trying to connect ring main to ring main (black and red) and then conect ring main to switch to lamp to ring main. Yes? I wonder if ring main red is actually red!!!

Hmm, you missed the last bit of Tel's post "find an electrician"!
Sounds like you may have this from your description:
Red to lamp : Switched line (the other half of this cable is the other side of the switch).
black and two reds together : switch wire, incoming line, outgoing line
other two blacks together : Neutral
No neutral wire to lamp though?

But if you correctly identified the switch wire then the fuse should not blow!

 

[Spoon]

Can we all refrain from the cheap quips towards the OP, we will not allow the kind of replies we are seeing carry on.
(Since been deleted)

If you have positive or negative advice for the OP then please post it as long as it is respectful and constructive. Let's not continue to see the thread taken off course any further.

Hi OP. I apologise if my post #11 came across like I was having a dig at you. It wasn't meant that way. I am quite abrupt in my posts.
The comment about "missing common sense" was a dig, but at some graduates and not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[Spoon]

Snapped not broke and anyways I always replace both shoe laces at the same time and Telectrix tells me you are still on velcro fasteners for your footwear ;o))))))

Thank you for the correction, you pedantic gentleman.. ( I mean 'gentleman' in it's broadest sense, you being a southerner..)

 

[Darkwood]

@Spoon - there was one particular comment that was deleted as it was beyond what we accept, I also tidied up a few others that gave nothing to the thread, your comment was left alone, maybe reworded it would have come across better but I didn't think it warranted deleting as I got the point you were making.

 

[Squid]

A bit of banter and a joke should be acceptable.

Next it'll be the grammar Police.......

 

[Darkwood]

A bit of banter and a joke should be acceptable.

Next it'll be the grammar Police.......

If it was banter between regular members who know each other well and know each others humour then yes I have no issue with a bit of ribbing and maybe the odd inappropriate comment within reason but this was in reference to a member who is an infrequent visitor with a small post count so making such a comment is deemed inappropriate as it can be take offensively and to add to that it was reported more than once so I am not alone in thinking on this occasion it stepped over the boundary just a little too much, as no infractions were given I didn't consider it warranted anything more than a reflection on how the OP may take such a comment.

I have never been a fan of Grandma police personally, they add little to the thread content and detract from the original theme of the thread, I will of course challenge anyone posting content that is confusing and hard to decipher due to bad grammar and/or spelling but not because of a missing comma or fullstop

 

[Squid]

Point taken Mein Fuhrer.

 

[Rincewindwiz]

the Good News: Well its all fixed. AFAICT from the information provided, had the original (presumed) electrician followed the rules, my life would have been somewhat easier. Add that to the fact that there was no slack in the wires through the ceiling at all meant either a trip to the roof void (OOB since its leasehold) or endless fiddling to the the wires to reach the relevant connectors.

And for that, thanks to Telectrix & Pete999 & Burns (twice): nice simple to follow instructions. Sadly mechanical difficulties made adherence tricky (See above). Guys like you give forums a good name

As to others: Spoons (#11) seemed to me a pretty fair comment which which I entirely concur. I found the switch wire (no problem) but in the pain of getting the leads to reach, lost sight of it! (That's the trouble with degrees, no practical experience!)


Littlespark (#10) elsparko (16) True O king(s) but where is the challenge, the excitement, the danger and hopefully the sense of achievement?

Spoon (#13) Common sense: that rarest of all commodities! How else was he supposed to learn. I suppose he could have signed onto a forum and received a load of abuse . Anyway plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery!

As for the deleted posts: disappointing - both that they were posted and that I was denied the right of reply !!

So, to all who contributed. thanks for you participation both for
- the helpful bits that brought my aspirations to a successful conclusion (and earned me several free pints); and
- the amusing bits that filled in time while I was waiting for stuff.

For those of you who missed the chance to poke fun at an innocent, I will be back. Watch this space!!

 

[Des 56]

Just got here,anything exciting missed?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Had my own version of this today, customer bought a fancy lights, took ceiling roses down and left it all hanging when she got confused. each light is on 2 way switching. Get there nothing is marked 1 is obviously the feed in, 1 is the switch then 2 outgoing cables to next fittings. for one of which the electrician used 3 core and cut the grey off. only thing is somewhere in the ceiling the cables appear to change colour! they used old and new and joined them, so on the next light along the cables changes to new. at this one there is 3 cables, one feed in from first light,one switch and the 3rd goes to a unknown fitting? nope it goes back to another fitting creating a ring within the radial and is also live. She tucked 2 of the cables in the ceiling out of sight so was unaware and the light was constantly on from the feed in which bypassed the switch enitrely.She only told me about the 2 hidden cables when i asked some questions about things not connecting as i expected.
Given the state of it i told her she will need a rcbo as she had no rcd and given these were nice metal fittings and cables not >50mm in wall and ceiling. she was fine with this thankfully. As I was not happy to connect them up otherwise. she herself said she had a few shocks when trying it herself.
Having identified the cables and labelled them due to the darkness tonight I was unable to fix the lights in, as i need to add a small piece of wood in the ceiling to take the weight. She had until now glued the bracket in place!. I had no free day slots for next week, so she is getting somebody else to do that bit. I just wish everybody even diyers label the damn cables before they disconnect everything. and say if they join different colours with a pretty sticker at the cu.

 

[DPG]

Glued the bracket to the ceiling !!

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Glued the bracket to the ceiling !!

Yes. she said the joist was on the edge of the cable whole in ceiling so put one wonky screw in joist and glued the other side of the metal bracket to the ceiling with superglue! I am secretly glad i am not fitting them now.... I regretted the job once i saw the extra cables and mismatched colouring. But why push 2 wires up in a hole the size of a 10pence piece? i had to cut a much bigger hole to pull them down. she didnt think they were needed apparently as the light came on and stayed on so thought issue was the switch!

 

[Squid]

Just got here,anything exciting missed?

Yeah, my light hearted jokes and wind ups are deemed not to be funny by the Kamp Komandant.

 

[telectrix]

Yeah, my light hearted jokes and wind ups are deemed not to be funny by the Kamp Komandant.

think you gotofflightly. ifi were the Kamp kommandment, you vould be taken out at dawn und shot, southern Svine.

 

[ipf]

think you gotofflightly. ifi were the Kamp kommandment, you vould be taken out at dawn und shot, southern Svine.

Ve haf vays ov making you pork.......

 

[Squid]

 

[JK-Electrical]

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