Rewiring house questions

[shanky887614]

And it's not his own house anyway (as per Midgetman's post above). Daz

op says it is his own home so I doubt it is a customers

 

[uksparks]

The best electricians have no need of a scam.

Very true, but somewhere along the line there needs to be a scheme / register / list whatever you want to call it of people who are allowed to carry out electrical work, unless you are on the list, sorry but you are not allowed.

 

[DPG]

op says it is his own home so I doubt it is a customers

Are you sure? Definately? Daz

 

[Plonker 3]

Very true, but somewhere along the line there needs to be a scheme / register / list whatever you want to call it of people who are allowed to carry out electrical work, unless you are on the list, sorry but you are not allowed.

There does, but right now there's not one

 

[shanky887614]

Are you sure? Definately? Daz

how do I know your actually an electrician not some monkey in a suit?

 

[DPG]

He says it's a customer's bl**dy house. Read the posts! Daz

 

[dannym]

Correction tony I'm not a DIY chancer, if you bothered to read the rest often posts you would have seen that. And yes it is a customers house, thankyou Daz

 

[shanky887614]

He says it's a customer's bl**dy house. Read the posts! Daz

#11 yup your right

 

[dannym]

And believe it or not tony not everyone has done any domestic work and doesn't automatically know everything unlike I'm sure you do

 

[Octopus]

And believe it or not tony not everyone has done any domestic work and doesn't automatically know everything unlike I'm sure you do

Now that could be an unwise line of defence in a Court of Law.

 

[Knobhead]

Very true, but somewhere along the line there needs to be a scheme / register / list whatever you want to call it of people who are allowed to carry out electrical work, unless you are on the list, sorry but you are not allowed.

I want a national register, for the sake of the industry I’ve loved even before becoming an apprentice.

Scams are superfluous to industrial electricians.

Interviewing an applicant for plant electrician:
Indentures?
Experience?
Qualifications?
Experience based on your qualifications?

A JIB card cut no ice, show me any of the others and I’d be openly laughing.

 

[davesparks]

And believe it or not tony not everyone has done any domestic work and doesn't automatically know everything unlike I'm sure you do

Ah but mr Tony has often remarked that he does not know domestic work and has spent his working life in heavy industrial work. He has even gone so far as to state that he doesn't consider himself competent in domestic work and to this end he does not do domestic work.

If you want to do domestic work then you need to get yourself out working with a decent spark with domestic experience, how would you feel about an electrician who works in the domestic sector walking in to your area of expertise and having a go?

 

[dannym]

They can do whatever they want, it's their life. And he was implying how domestic was the lowest of the industries we work across and all I said was that not everyone has done everything so doesn't automatically know the answer to everything.

 

[DPG]

They can do whatever they want, it's their life. And he was implying how domestic was the lowest of the industries we work across and all I said was that not everyone has done everything so doesn't automatically know the answer to everything.

But surely doing commercial/industrial work you would still need to know about how much current something draws, and whether a circuit can safely supply it. I don't get the question of whether 10 LED lamps will overload your circuit. What is different as regards this between industrial or domestic? It's still the same theory. Daz

 

[davesparks]

But surely doing commercial/industrial work you would still need to know about how much current something draws, and whether a circuit can safely supply it. I don't get the question of whether 10 LED lamps will overload your circuit. What is different as regards this between industrial or domestic? It's still the same theory. Daz

The only real difference is the size of the lighting circuit I guess, although your point is a good one. It's the same calculation to establish the max load you can put on the cct.

Don't forget though a lighting circuit in an industrial setting could easily be fed at 32Amps 3phase with all lights either on or off, it's quite easy to be left unsure about how a 6A cct will behave.
Or in my native territory (theatre) it's quite normal to use single lights rated at 5KW, and a basic standard dimmer can control 80A 3phase.

 

[dannym]

Where I havnt done much domestic I've been looking at more things on the internet and reading other peoples questions and answers. Which makes me question things and thus I wanted to be even more sure that I was correct in what I was doing. And whereas I'm used to using 10a type c breakers I wasn't confident if a smaller type b would suffice due to a slight inrush current or whatever.

i didn't think I asked anything too stupid, after all I could have just gone ahead anyway but thought I'd check first as I like to learn from others who have more expericance than me.

thankyou to the people that have been helpful in this post

 

[Chrisuk]

And believe it or not tony not everyone has done any domestic work and doesn't automatically know everything unlike I'm sure you do

Trainee apprentice in the making....I was led to believe that during my apprenticeship I'll be working on domestic ..commercial and industrial...already I've done domestic ..worked at a medical centre which I believe was commercial...now working on a new build school (industrial? )...didn't u cover the 3 areas? ...I thought we needed all 3 to fill the portfolio.?
Good luck pal

 

[shanky887614]

Trainee apprentice in the making....I was led to believe that during my apprenticeship I'll be working on domestic ..commercial and industrial...already I've done domestic ..worked at a medical centre which I believe was commercial...now working on a new build school (industrial? )...didn't u cover the 3 areas? ...I thought we needed all 3 to fill the portfolio.?
Good luck pal

a school is comercial, industrial is factories etc

 

[Chrisuk]

Cheers, That's why i had the question mark...... we will be working on some asda new builds and I was told that's industrial. .but yeah in my mind I think of factories when I think industrial

 

[Engineer54]

Cheers, That's why i had the question mark...... we will be working on some asda new builds and I was told that's industrial. .but yeah in my mind I think of factories when I think industrial

Nope, i'm afraid that's classed as commercial too!!

 

[Chrisuk]

Nope, i'm afraid that's classed as commercial too!!

Thanks Eng for clearing that up for me...not sure I'll do any industrial then. .Tesco and asda are the biggest we do I think

 

[Engineer54]

In years gone by, the training was such that an installation electrician just out of his time would have been competent enough to work in any sector of this industry. Only if an electrician wanted to enter say, industrial plant maintenance, would he need extra on the job training, especially in a heavy industry setting.....

Alas that's all a thing of the past now, installation apprentice training is now almost exclusively set around domestic installations, even the AM2 no longer includes metal containment FFS and has long since included MICC. Another tell tale sign of just how bad the training has become, you now need a NVQ 3 to prove (if it can ever be believed) that you have the practical skills/experience of various types of installation!!!!

For all it's woes etc, the JIB/SJIB has at least steadfastly kept to it's rules of what is accepted as the minimum requirements of being recognised as a electrician, unlike just about every other institution associated with the industry...

 

[dannym]

I had people on my course that only done domestic for example, others only did maintenance work, in the other class that didn't do the apprenticeship (or nvq I believe) someone else was on the dole, at least one other worked in an office, more than one worked in a bar only. None of them people got any hands on experience.

 

[Chrisuk]

Worked in a bar..Thought u had to be enjoyed in the industry to do an apprenticeship?
That's what an apprenticeship is...hands on experience

Do u mean u did evenings?

 

[Knobhead]

The only real difference is the size of the lighting circuit I guess, although your point is a good one. It's the same calculation to establish the max load you can put on the cct.

Don't forget though a lighting circuit in an industrial setting could easily be fed at 32Amps 3phase with all lights either on or off, it's quite easy to be left unsure about how a 6A cct will behave.
Or in my native territory (theatre) it's quite normal to use single lights rated at 5KW, and a basic standard dimmer can control 80A 3phase.

The last plant I worked on used over twenty 32A 433V rings. Go in at 06:00 Sunday morning it was like switching Blackpool illuminations on, switched off the following Saturday evening. The only lights that went out during the week were the outdoor stock grounds.
I don’t know which genius designed the system, the light switches were slap bang in the centre of the plant. Up two flights of stairs, walk past the furnaces, pass around the back of the bunkers, climb another flight of stairs, go through the pump room and you’ve found them. That’s after you’ve fallen over umpteen things on the way.

 

[Risteard]

even the AM2 no longer includes metal containment FFS and has long since included MICC.

Did the containment and MIMS not go out of the AM2 at exactly the same time? I'm pretty sure they did.

 

[Risteard]

Worked in a bar..Thought u had to be enjoyed in the industry to do an apprenticeship?
That's what an apprenticeship is...hands on experience

Do u mean u did evenings?

He did clearly state that he was referring to those who hadn't done the Apprenticeship!

 

[Engineer54]

Did the containment and MIMS not go out of the AM2 at exactly the same time? I'm pretty sure they did.

From what i've been led to understand, MICC hasn't been taught at any length or depth for some years now, so pretty daft having MICC as part of the AM2 if the students know sod all about how to terminate and dress the cable. How metal conduit and metal containment systems can be dropped from an electricians curriculum in favour of Cat5 installations, just beggars belief. I suppose that skill and experience will become yet another add-on C&G qualification....

 

[davesparks]

The last plant I worked on used over twenty 32A 433V rings. Go in at 06:00 Sunday morning it was like switching Blackpool illuminations on, switched off the following Saturday evening. The only lights that went out during the week were the outdoor stock grounds.
I don’t know which genius designed the system, the light switches were slap bang in the centre of the plant. Up two flights of stairs, walk past the furnaces, pass around the back of the bunkers, climb another flight of stairs, go through the pump room and you’ve found them. That’s after you’ve fallen over umpteen things on the way.

If only you'd had an electrician around who could have moved them for you

That sounds like the wonderful design work of an archi**** to me!

 

[Knobhead]

I was there 14 years, it was on the "to do" list. It had been since the plant had been built in the 60's.

 

[davesparks]

I thought that would be the case, isn't it always with something like that?

 

[Andy78]

From what i've been led to understand, MICC hasn't been taught at any length or depth for some years now, so pretty daft having MICC as part of the AM2 if the students know sod all about how to terminate and dress the cable. How metal conduit and metal containment systems can be dropped from an electricians curriculum in favour of Cat5 installations, just beggars belief. I suppose that skill and experience will become yet another add-on C&G qualification....

I did my AM2 as recent as 2009 and MI was still involved in the install then, so it must have changed since then.

I did my college between 2005 - 2009 and we were actually taught quite well. Workshop sessions included fabricating bends, and sets in steel conduit, trunking, and tray. We covered MI quite well too, and were capable of not only using a joistripper, but a T bar and pliers too by the end of it. Nowhere near the practical level of the apprenticeships of days past I imagine, but good for a modern centre.

I did have a lot of site experience before I even started the course, so most of it was just going through the motions for me, but to some lads these skills were a revelation.

 

[shanky887614]

From what i've been led to understand, MICC hasn't been taught at any length or depth for some years now, so pretty daft having MICC as part of the AM2 if the students know sod all about how to terminate and dress the cable. How metal conduit and metal containment systems can be dropped from an electricians curriculum in favour of Cat5 installations, just beggars belief. I suppose that skill and experience will become yet another add-on C&G qualification....

cant beat a bit of galv or stainless containment.

basket, tray, trunking, conduit we use the lot

 

[7029 dave]

cant beat a bit of galv or stainless containment.

basket, tray, trunking, conduit we use the lot

Shanky, if I have read your post correctly, are you using these materials at college?, If so that's encouraging.

 

[shanky887614]

Shanky, if I have read your post correctly, are you using these materials at college?, If so that's encouraging.

nope, cut 1 piece of swa and glanded in 2330 lvl2

no trunking at all, couple 90's in bends but is that really that useful?


then mainly sets etc in plastic, nothing else other than T&e on ply.


the stuff I mentioned is what I use nearly daily at work

 

[7029 dave]

nope, cut 1 piece of swa and glanded in 2330 lvl2

no trunking at all, couple 90's in bends but is that really that useful?


then mainly sets etc in plastic, nothing else other than T&e on ply.


the stuff I mentioned is what I use nearly daily at work

Okay, that's good mate, at least your getting good hands on, shame no micc.

 

[shanky887614]

Okay, that's good mate, at least your getting good hands on, shame no micc.

got some in post soon to have a go with.

defstan is awful stuff to work with, I would rather be pulling cables in a duct in the middle of summer surrounded by steam pipes

(i might have been bidding against some of you guys for a joistripper)