Signed certs that are filled in badly

[cprfenom]

Morning.

A few points really and it's more due to a lack of understanding on what NICEIC will look for.

They are as followed

How critically will the inspector look at schedule of items inspected and tested?

Ie - Ze is N/V on test sheet, but ticked on schedule as tested.

If I have signed cert would it be ill advised to change the digital cert to change the tick and insert the corrected sheet?

Basically I am not sure if record information that is wrong even if the final readings are complient will be flagged.

 

[Pete999]

Not having had much dealings withe any of the schemes, other than talking to a mate of mine who was a NICEIC QS.
The inspector should be looking a certificates with a view to ensuring the testing has been done correctly, and the certificates are filled out to reflect the test results.

 

[Octopus]

Op what vet is it?

Not recording the Ze does sound odd.

That said I'm in a house with a new CU, the Zs for the upstairs lighting is a fib, as the cpc isn't continuous from the board.

Next example is an EICR where the readings on the cert are way different to the ones I checked

Not good

 

[Pete999]

Op what vet is it?

Not recording the Ze does sound odd.

That said I'm in a house with a new CU, the Zs for the upstairs lighting is a fib, as the cpc isn't continuous from the board.

Next example is an EICR where the readings on the cert are way different to the ones I checked

Not good

I agree Mate, not good at all, probably get some earache, but do you think, like I do that the blame for Shoddy EICRs etc, lies with poorly trained electricians, or cheap and cheerful testing just to get the customer to stump up his cash, who will be blissfully unaware that the cert he has been given is only good for hanging on a nail in the outside Lav.

 

[Octopus]

It's the EIC with the completely ficticious Zs that annoyed me.

I did an estimate after looking at said EIC and I didn't factor in 3 hours investigating the lack of earth on the lighting circuit.

Edit. I'm tempted to send the cert to Napit and highlight the issue ...

 

[cprfenom]

Morning.

These are often commercial jobs, so I understand why the Ze could be a limitation. However the schedule of tests show it as tested (a tick)

These certs were signed before I was taken on, but you could argue that a badly filled cert signed isn't complient. I don't want to alter and counter sign if this will cause more trouble, but equally if not correcting them is worse then I want to know I wont get stung.

 

[cprfenom]

Edited to remove peoples mobiles :S

 

[Ian1981]

Nominal voltage to earth 415 v ,doubtful I would bet.
Plus it's 400 v nowadays isn't it, or that's what we write in.

 

[cprfenom]

Nominal voltage to earth 415 v ,doubtful I would bet.
Plus it's 400 v nowadays isn't it, or that's what we write in.

What about the 3 phase 3 wire? Or the no Ze, but the have confirmed the continuity of the main earthing and protective bonding conductor.

They have listed the supply characteristics but on the tick list it's N/V

 

[Ian1981]

3 phase 3 wire is still 230 v phase to earth, or do you mean it should be 3 phase 4 wire?

Yeah it's badly filled in.

 

[buzzlightyear]

if I was you I would start from scratch with those test certs because you have not put in your ZE. KA test in. and the list goes on . like said IAN 1981 GALLEGER mad for it . badly filled in .

 

[cprfenom]

I have certs going back 18 months because the old PDH and QS put the NIC off 3 times. They both left and I am now trying to put things right.

I can't believe more than 1 person put their signature against this.

 

[Andy78]

It's the EIC with the completely ficticious Zs that annoyed me.

I did an estimate after looking at said EIC and I didn't factor in 3 hours investigating the lack of earth on the lighting circuit.

Edit. I'm tempted to send the cert to Napit and highlight the issue ...

That's nowt. I had a cert once that had RCD trip times on it for the kitchen alterations. Existing Bs3036 board in place with no RCD in the entire house.
How they thought that wouldn't get noticed .......... ?

 

[Richard Burns]

Badly filled out certificates are very common unfortunately.
In your case I would say that you are not responsible for work done before you were appointed, however if the NICEIC are assessing a period which pre dates you then they could be unhappy, however their approval is for the future and so long as what you are doing is correct then they should be able to permit continuation.
Modification of finalised paperwork is not a good idea, reissuing the paperwork with the correct results and recording this action would be a better way of proceeding as this maintains a paperwork trail which would normally be needed for quality assurance (ha, ha!)

I have just done an EICR where there was previous paperwork, which is not common, and I found that my test results matched the previous values; this has never happened to me before and I am quite surprised to find an accurate previous assessment. It makes the job a lot easier if things are correct as Murdoch
has pointed out in reverse.

 

[ferg]

I noticed a mistake on one of my certs just in time.

I had used autofill and for some reason had a 6mm T&E protected by a 100A bs88 type II. Idiot...

I had to drive back home and do it again as the DNO were connecting to it in the morning.

 

[Risteard]

That's nowt. I had a cert once that had RCD trip times on it for the kitchen alterations. Existing Bs3036 board in place with no RCD in the entire house.
How they thought that wouldn't get noticed .......... ?

Was there an SRCD or RCD FCU?

 

[Andy78]

Was there an SRCD or RCD FCU?

No. Complete fabrication. The schedule described a dual RCD CU complete with tripping times. The invoice detailed a CU swap.

 

[Risteard]

No. Complete fabrication. The schedule described a dual RCD CU complete with tripping times. The invoice detailed a CU swap.

LOL. Fair enough. Probably a default schedule of test results pasted into the job!

 

[Andy78]

LOL. Fair enough. Probably a default schedule of test results pasted into the job!

I don't know why it happened to be honest. I let the contractor explain that bit to B&Q homefit management and the NICEIC.

 

[Toneyz]

I had a cert placed in front of me as Q.S. I could see it was completed by my old boss but a flat with four rooms on circuit cable 1.0/1.0 T + E R1 + R2 =0.01 ohms total B.S.

 

[cprfenom]

My first stint as a QS and given that most of the certificates are dual signature its depressing. One month till the assessment and I am bricking it! How can I have any faith of duplicating any readings or that the information is even anywhere near correct!!

 

[Toneyz]

Why did the previous PDH and QS both leave ?. Maybe time out with who ever is doing the testing. Does someone else complete the certs from written down info who is not a competent electrician? .My advice from being both is not to even try to pull the wool over their eyes be open and honest there is not a lot you can be responsible for prior to your appointment but you can demonstrate you have a understanding what has happened in the past and how you are moving forward.

 

[marc8]

Not Verified NV, you would need to have all these listed in limitations & the reasons why the limitations are in place. gas bonding surely you would be able to see it if not at least X & put in notes location unknown believe not bonded & put X down!
most people can find something wrong on a test cert & the inspector will usually use a judgement call on what is wrong with the cert & how much & depending on if they think you have just misunderstood the question being asked or generally don't know will come down to the responses from questions they will ask you.
another thing will be if you are QS & are signing off work on behalf of others working for the company or if you are filling your certificates yourself & just you as QS.

 

[cprfenom]

They left in a cloud of anger between the principal project manager and the PDH. In fairness I am getting the feeling that the PDH likes to move a lot! When he drew up budgets for jobs he would go off spec and miss a lot off.
I'm just miffed as before I took the job I talked to the staff and the vibe was that the PDH was a perfectionist.

I have told the principle project manager that I will not fudge any reports even in regards to the schedules and that we will put a new procedure in place to ensure that myself and the PDH do due diligence on the certs as we cant always get it spot on first time.

 

[cprfenom]

Not Verified NV, you would need to have all these listed in limitations & the reasons why the limitations are in place. gas bonding surely you would be able to see it if not at least X & put in notes location unknown believe not bonded & put X down!
most people can find something wrong on a test cert & the inspector will usually use a judgement call on what is wrong with the cert & how much & depending on if they think you have just misunderstood the question being asked or generally don't know will come down to the responses from questions they will ask you.
another thing will be if you are QS & are signing off work on behalf of others working for the company or if you are filling your certificates yourself & just you as QS.

At this moment the plan is that I am not filling in any certificates. Its the plan to have 2 dedicated testers and I will ensure during the project that I am happy with standards and ensure that the works done conform. I will also have to ensure that the site testing is transferred to our electrical test sheets, rectify any issues and ask the PDH to sign.

An example of this is type C breakers with higher than permitted Zs. Ask to confirm if they are calculated readings and then look at changing to Type B or alter the circuit to ensure that the readings comply.

 

[marc8]

if these certificates are before your time as the QS then it will be company problem & may well involve visits to the sites to undertake more in depth testing with the inspector to gain a knowledge of the site & to ensure safety.
what most will look at is the consistency of the new test certs from the time you have taken over as the QS & what if any changes to the test certs from that period but may still insist on visits for the previous works.

 

[marc8]

At this moment the plan is that I am not filling in any certificates. Its the plan to have 2 dedicated testers and I will ensure during the project that I am happy with standards and ensure that the works done conform. I will also have to ensure that the site testing is transferred to our electrical test sheets, rectify any issues and ask the PDH to sign.

An example of this is type C breakers with higher than permitted Zs. Ask to confirm if they are calculated readings and then look at changing to Type B or alter the circuit to ensure that the readings comply.[/QUOTe

who is the QS for the firm ?
it will rest with them to make sure the test cert is correct, high ZS values can be used on tests certificates but again must give calculations & reasons attached or on the certificate, example lighting designer might for example change a value of acceptable ZS value in design & this would need to be recorded for the works & on the test sheet, the then changed ZS value & design would be down to the designer of the circuit.

 

[cprfenom]

if these certificates are before your time as the QS then it will be company problem & may well involve visits to the sites to undertake more in depth testing with the inspector to gain a knowledge of the site & to ensure safety.
what most will look at is the consistency of the new test certs from the time you have taken over as the QS & what if any changes to the test certs from that period but may still insist on visits for the previous works.

Most of these sites are for the likes Hospitals and access may not be possible?

 

[marc8]

Most of these sites are for the likes Hospitals and access may not be possible?

you would probably need that in writing on headed paper from the hospital concerned & if you mentioned you might need to have your work looked at by a governing body that would be normally acceptable & in worst case scenario you might not just have your inspector with you that day you might have a person in charges of works at the hospital to show also.
finished some works for part of NHS last year & had an audit just before when we were installing containment inspector had a look at the first fix & even mentioned having another look when we finished the project, the trust seemed very happy with that.

 

[marc8]

just looking at the certificate what was the work for ?

 

[cprfenom]

That one was a Hospital

 

[cprfenom]

I will say that I am fine with limitations, but there is nothing in writing to confirm this has even been agreed!

 

[Flanders]

If it's your first job as qs the inspector will be more interested in your knowledge and how you assess your men( site ordits etc ) if you can show that you are competent then you should not have to many issues or have they ask to look at reports from the last 3 years

 

[marc8]

That one was a Hospital

what was the extent of the works?

 

[cprfenom]

what was the extent of the works?

New DB board and updating of 2 addition DB boards

 

[cprfenom]

I have spoken the NIC and they are saying the same thing Flanders. The company are worried they will lose their accreditation

 

[Toneyz]

I have spoken the NIC and they are saying the same thing Flanders. The company are worried they will lose their accreditation

Are you doing the PDH job as well ?.

am getting the feeling that the PDH likes to move a lot! When he drew up budgets for jobs he would go off spec and miss a lot off.

Am I to assume you are referring to the project manager here ?.As long as it conforms to BS7671 then the above in not in the PDH remit eg the spec might say 20 watt LED and 15 watt is fitted is irrelevant.

 

[cprfenom]

Are you doing the PDH job as well ?.
Am I to assume you are referring to the project manager here ?.As long as it conforms to BS7671 then the above in not in the PDH remit eg the spec might say 20 watt LED and 15 watt is fitted is irrelevant.

He was basically the electrical guy for the company at the start. So he had a hand in all aspects, but his primary role was PDH. The company is newish to the electrical side in terms of keeping it in house and not subbed out.

It just bothers me as I have not been exposed to this sort of stuff before.

 

[Toneyz]

He was basically the electrical guy for the company at the start. So he had a hand in all aspects, but his primary role was PDH. The company is newish to the electrical side in terms of keeping it in house and not subbed out.

It just bothers me as I have not been exposed to this sort of stuff before.

So you had a electrical project manager ,A PDH and the Q.S ? you keep on referring to ''he'' .

 

[Pete999]

Is the company you work for, giving you the time, support etc or are they like some, paying lip service, and Ant will know what I'm talking about, to carry out QS duties, or is "He" just passing the buck onto your shoulders?

 

[cprfenom]

We had one of each, but the PDH did a little PM too. As some of the jobs we small scale he quoted and arranged installs too

 

[cprfenom]

Is the company you work for, giving you the time, support etc or are they like some, paying lip service, and Ant will know what I'm talking about, to carry out QS duties, or is "He" just passing the buck onto your shoulders?

Giving me time it seems, but their immediate problem is the assessment in 3 weeks time.

 

[Toneyz]

Is the company you work for, giving you the time, support etc or are they like some, paying lip service, and Ant will know what I'm talking about, to carry out QS duties, or is "He" just passing the buck onto your shoulders?

Yes I was that token gesture ,making s....t shine and polishing the t....d.

 

[Toneyz]

It shouldn't cost more to do it right first time. It's when you can't get the lads to do the basics because your M.D. not supporting you and not letting them do it right.

 

[marc8]

New DB board and updating of 2 addition DB boards

I will be honest with you with the information on the certificate & the work you have installed new DB boards & the guys on-site either could not be bothered to look or ask someone about the gas connection alone, also I take it the certificate has been passed over as a finished job then I think you might be in for a bumpy ride in three weeks time. not your work just that certificate & may be more like it.
you can have a s..t looking job but as long as the paperwork looks good & the results are pretty equal to the work carried then you would be okay.
I mean the new DB'S came from something surely even putting these figures in would be better than NV

 

[marc8]

just a suggestion if the company is new to this side of the works, look at maybe getting some help in on a temporary basis to go through with you & look at each certificate for the year, make an appointment with every job that looks like has problems with the certificate & get the results required, just a suggestion.

a way to do this would be that you are carrying out an internal audit of everything carried over last 12 months & would they mind if you made an appointment as their worked had been short listed for audit purposes.

 

[Toneyz]

Has this certificate been issued ?.

 

[marc8]

Has this certificate been issued ?.

yes what I was thinking if it has then probably going to be a revisit at least, if no might be alright.

 

[cprfenom]

The certificate was passed off the the O&M with the job considered completed. My boss is trying to say the limitations are justified as some access could not be had, but there is nothing in writing to back this up and I think the assessor will take a dim view of that.

We will see. All I can do is be prepared for the assessment as well as I can be so that he isn't immediately ----ed off

 

[marc8]

The certificate was passed off the the O&M with the job considered completed. My boss is trying to say the limitations are justified as some access could not be had, but there is nothing in writing to back this up and I think the assessor will take a dim view of that.

We will see. All I can do is be prepared for the assessment as well as I can be so that he isn't immediately ****ed off

the problem is the limitations are not on the test certificate, we had a limitation on a test sheet but not recorded & was only minor but assessor wanted to know why not recorded & no details, that was for one limitation reading the certificate in the picture you might of needed a new sheet to get all that information on.