Test failed due to missing RCD

[Peterpipe]

Hi All
Recently joined the forum to ask for some information.
I recently bought a flat to let. I was advised by the letting agent to get the electrics tested, although not a legal requirement. The test was carried out by their electrical contractor. He failed the test due to the fuse board not having an RCD fitted. The fuse board is the original board fitted in 2003 when the flats where built. There has been no mods or circuits added to the system and everything is working as it should. I paid £348.00 for the test and the RCD to be installed. I have since been told that the test should not have failed due to the lack of the RCD. Have I been stitched up.
Any comments gratefully recieved
Peter

 

[westward10]

Yes.

 

[Risteard]

I don't agree. Lack of RCD protection where now required must be listed in the Observations section of the report. The severity of the coding recommendations will depend on the particular details of the installation.

 

[sparksburnout]

Do you know what an RCD is? Perhaps the spark involved got fed up with making recommendations to Landlords who generally baulk at increasing their tenants safety for the sake of a few quid by ignoring them, and just failed it to force the issue. Maybe debatable as far as the regulations are concerned, but at least it's going to be safer. I can't understand any landlord that wouldn't want one fitted to be honest.

 

[Peterpipe]

Thanks for your comments, but does an existing fuse board without an RCD not meet the current regs.

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for your comments, but does an existing fuse board without an RCD not meet the current regs.

No but the instalation probably did meet the regulations current at the time the flat was first wired.

 

[Octopus]

How has the RCD been fitted?

 

[Octopus]

Thanks for your comments, but does an existing fuse board without an RCD not meet the current regs.

I recommend that you Google best practice guide number 4, issue 4, download and read

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for your comments, but does an existing fuse board without an RCD not meet the current regs.

Read 3.1 of best practice guide

 

[Peterpipe]

He's taken out the mains switch and replaced it with the RCD

 

[Pete999]

He's taken out the mains switch and replaced it with the RCD

Any test results /certificate issued to you?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Dont get me started on landlords and letting agents. Have had a issue with them this morning, agent had me in to do a EICR a few weeks back, consumer unit from mid 90's, no rcd, amongst many issues i found in the house - such as missing cpc on lights, the water and gas bonded to each other but not to the MET or CU.. but also wants me to put in some new sockets and a extra shower on 3rd floor.as the large room is being split into 2 bedrooms, had to explain the need for an rcd. has a quote from somebody willing to do the job dirt cheap and landlord feels my price is too high. I said not to worry then, with the money he saves on the electrician he can use that towards his legal fees when he ends up in court when one of tenants ends up dead from the cowboys work. Suffice to say my response has meant i did not get the job, but im quite happy with that.

 

[sparksburnout]

Thanks for your comments, but does an existing fuse board without an RCD not meet the current regs.

Look it is like this - it probably did meet requirements at the time. Whether it does now or not maybe be the subject of debate, however, for your own and more importantly your tenant's safety fitting one would be a good idea, and not expensive, as you have seen. Do you know what one does? Like I said before the spark has probably been in this situation loads of times before and been completely ignored by penny pinching landlords. Or, there may also be a good reason, so if I were you I would just crack on. He has not taken the mick with his price, IMO. Who was it told you that it should not have failed anyway? Have they been to the installation and done another EICR??

 

[Peterpipe]

Attached photos of the fuse board, before and after. I have not received the test cert yet.
I can well imagine the problems you have with landlords who just want to get the place let with no regard to the safety of the tenant. However had the spark made a comment that in his view and in the interest of the safety of the tenants he strongly advised that an RCD be fitted I would have agreed to the work.

 

[Peterpipe]

I posted my last reply before receiving yours. I told a friend of mine who is a spark and he said he didn't think it should have failed if that was the only issue. Of course I know what an RCD does "I googled it"

 

[IzzyS]

Think of it as cheap insurance - the additional RCD reduces the risk of electric shock for your tenants, and can also reduce the risk of fire Doepke RCD Video.

 

[sparksburnout]

I posted my last reply before receiving yours. I told a friend of mine who is a spark and he said he didn't think it should have failed if that was the only issue. Of course I know what an RCD does "I googled it"

So if you know what one does, why are you so upset? Be 100% honest, if he had given you an initial pass, with a recommendation to fit one, would you have done it??

 

[sparksburnout]

I posted my last reply before receiving yours. I told a friend of mine who is a spark and he said he didn't think it should have failed if that was the only issue. Of course I know what an RCD does "I googled it"

Did your spark friend also add that it was a good idea anyway, though? He should have done.

 

[Peterpipe]

Thanks for all your comments. I just wanted to get the facts right before I write a review on "trust a trader" etc. In my view, with my limited electrical knowledge, I was conned and overcharged. 7 lights, 12 double sockets, 3 appliances, boiler, Fuse board, all with easy access in an empty flat. Cost of RCD say £30.00, he only had the keys for about 2 hours, puts him on min £150.00 per hour.

 

[sparksburnout]

Thanks for all your comments. I just wanted to get the facts right before I write a review on "trust a trader" etc. In my view, with my limited electrical knowledge, I was conned and overcharged. 7 lights, 12 double sockets, 3 appliances, boiler, Fuse board, all with easy access in an empty flat. Cost of RCD say £30.00, he only had the keys for about 2 hours, puts him on min £150.00 per hour.

There is a lot here that is open to debate and needs more facts, however I cannot help but get the impression that you are more worried about the cost of being a responsible Landlord than the safety actions involved. Why didn't you get this "mate" of yours to do the EICR? is he not qualified? After you have written your report, think on that one day you might be glad that having the RCD this person has fitted might save the life of one of your Tenants.

 

[Midwest]

Can't comment on the coding, but were you given a price for this work, that you now think is expensive or not value for money?

Not a great lover of Trust a Trader sites etc, but would it not be better to take up this dissatisfaction with the trader in question, rather than just giving poor grading?

 

[Peterpipe]

Yes, he said I should have a RCD fitted for all the reasons you have said. In all honesty, I'm not sure if I would have had I not spoken to him, so it worked out for the best in the end, but it should not have failed on the strength of it.

 

[telectrix]

if the original installation was 2003, then socket circuits should have had RCD protection, esp. those that could be used for outside appliances. However, if RCD/s are being fitted today, they should meet current standards. a split board ( 2 RCDs ) or an RCBO board shouldbe fitted to comlply, although the upfront RCD thast's been fitted makes the installation safer.

edit> i'd probably fail it with a C2.

 

[Des 56]

Living in a less prosperous part of the UK I have opinion on the charge,however,(whatever the cost)you must have agreed the price before the work was done?

 

[westward10]

EICRs don't fail an installation is is either unsatisfactory or satisfactory.

 

[Peterpipe]

My friend is a qualified spark, he works in the construction industry not residential so has not the qualification to carry out this test. I did get a price but it was very late in the day, we had tenants moving in in 3 days and did not want any problems so went along with it. It wasn't until I saw what was involved that I started asking questions. As I have said, I'm glad I had it fitted.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Firstly replacing a main switch for an RCD means all circuits will be lost in the event of tripping. A non compliance in itself, another means of providing RCD protection if required should have been adopted.
Secondly to the OP.
Just because the electrician only had the keys for two hours does not mean the job only took two hours. There would be travelling time and often the certificate might be completed back at the office from notes taken on site, could easily add another hour or more to the total time.

 

[Pete999]

Thanks for all your comments. I just wanted to get the facts right before I write a review on "trust a trader" etc. In my view, with my limited electrical knowledge, I was conned and overcharged. 7 lights, 12 double sockets, 3 appliances, boiler, Fuse board, all with easy access in an empty flat. Cost of RCD say £30.00, he only had the keys for about 2 hours, puts him on min £150.00 per hour.

Oh you got hime from "Trust a Trader" better not comment? he must have given you a quote for the testing, and a price for the RCD, surely

 

[Pete999]

Any test results /certificate issued to you?

Peter, you seem not to have answered the question about the report, if it was issued that is.

 

[Peterpipe]

The letting agent uses him for all their electrical work. They will be my first port of call once I get started. He did give me two prices £156.00 for the test and £192.00 for installing the RCD.

 

[Octopus]

Not having RCD's in a rental property is NOT a good idea ......... I would suggest that you may have been taken advantage of .......... and as he was recommended by the estate agent, I suspect they get some form of kick back .............

Next time, plan ahead and don't use a spark associated with an estate agent.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

A very reasonable price for a full EICR, a lot for the RCD, but there may have been complications, changing devices in a CU is not always straightforward, particularly with obsolete boards.

 

[Peterpipe]

I have not received the report yet, I guess it is in the post. It will be interesting to see what it says.

 

[Taylortwocities]

He's taken out the mains switch and replaced it with the RCD

Which contravenes BS7671 as he has now introduced a common point of failure. An earth fault on any circuit will cut the electricity to the entire flat.

So he has changed what was a minor issue - that deserves a C3 (improvment recommended) - to what I regard as something much worse.

 

[Taylortwocities]

He's taken out the mains switch and replaced it with the RCD

Which contravenes BS7671 as he has now introduced a common point of failure. An earth fault on any circuit will cut the electricity to the entire flat.

So he has changed what was a minor issue - that deserves a C3 (improvment recommended) - to what I regard as something much worse.

 

[Octopus]

He did give me two prices £156.00 for the test and £192.00 for installing the RCD.

I would say that you need to go back to the agent / spark and question the £192.00 to fit an RCD

Are you sure it wasn't supposed to be £156 for the test and an additional £36 (making £192) for the RCD.

Talk about over charging ...................

 

[Peterpipe]

Had it been £192.00 or even £250.00 for both, I would have paid without question but £348.00. It's like when you take your car in for an MOT and it fails because the laughter shaft has detached from the giggle pin and its going to cost 50 Groats to get it fixed and you can't drive it as it is.

 

[westward10]

How has the RCD been fitted?

I agree I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of this.

 

[sparksburnout]

Had it been £192.00 or even £250.00 for both, I would have paid without question but £348.00. It's like when you take your car in for an MOT and it fails because the laughter shaft has detached from the giggle pin and its going to cost 50 Groats to get it fixed and you can't drive it as it is.

OK we will assume said electrician is self employed, irrespective of the possible dubious worth of installing an up-front RCD. No holiday pay, no sick pay, scheme fees, insurance, accountants, and so on. You have no idea of the costs involved, do you? How much rent are you charging your Tenant? Bet it's a hell of a lot more than £348 pcm, and your probably depriving someone of buying a first home to boot.

 

[Octopus]

@sparksburnout

You seem to be disagreeing with some of the comments on here ........ why, what is your opinion?

@Peterpipe

Have you received the invoice? Maybe not pay it until you have received the paperwork.

You need an EICR and a MWC or EIC with the invoice

...........

 

[Octopus]

OK we will assume said electrician is self employed, irrespective of the possible dubious worth of installing an up-front RCD. No holiday pay, no sick pay, scheme fees, insurance, accountants, and so on. You have no idea of the costs involved, do you? How much rent are you charging your Tenant? Bet it's a hell of a lot more than £348 pcm, and your probably depriving someone of buying a first home to boot.

So you think £192 to fit an RCD in place of a main switch acceptable?

I don't

 

[MJPD29]

I agree with the spark. Landlords and letting agents can be downright ridiculous when it comes to things like this and you've done the right thing by paying for an EICR and an RCD at least your one of the few who keeps everything right and effectively keeping your tenants safer should an fault condition arise

 

[sparksburnout]

@sparksburnout

You seem to be disagreeing with some of the comments on here ........ why, what is your opinion?

@Peterpipe

Have you received the invoice? Maybe not pay it until you have received the paperwork.

You need an EICR and a MWC or EIC with the invoice

...........

Yes I have disagreed with a couple of the comments on here, it is allowed you know? I think I have made my comments fairly clearly, maybe you need to read through the posts. You yourself agreed with it being madness not to have RCD protection in a rental property so you have lost me on my first one. Regarding the second, I do work for a local estate agent, never had any problems or complaints from any direction, so it is unfair of you to generalise in my opinion. Who are we to know the costs involved in this particular job? Presumably they were agreed between the spark involved and the Landlord beforehand? If not then they should have been.

 

[Octopus]

Who are we to know the costs involved in this particular job? Presumably they were agreed between the spark involved and the Landlord beforehand? If not then they should have been.

The way the OP has presented the information to us is that he wasn't given the choice, or, more importantly the opportunity to get another quote.

A photo of the board would be useful.

As for lettings and estate agents - they have a pretty awful reputation for this sort of thing and I normally decline opportunities from said organisations ............... I do work directly for home / flat owners and make sure that they understand the ins and outs of what is needed ............ and often suggest they get a 2nd opinion.

 

[elsparko]

only new builds and modifications to existing circuits that require rcd protection

existing properties it is a c3 at best.

 

[Peterpipe]

Thanks for all your comments it has been very interesting. My interpretation from what you have said is that not having an RCD in the fuse board is an advisory not a fail, although in everyone's opinion, including mine, it is an important safety device and should be fitted, so he duped me into having it fitted rather than advising me and he overcharged me for fitting the RCD.
Thanks again Peter

 

[Midwest]

Yes I have disagreed with a couple of the comments on here, it is allowed you know? I think I have made my comments fairly clearly, maybe you need to read through the posts. You yourself agreed with it being madness not to have RCD protection in a rental property so you have lost me on my first one. Regarding the second, I do work for a local estate agent, never had any problems or complaints from any direction, so it is unfair of you to generalise in my opinion. Who are we to know the costs involved in this particular job? Presumably they were agreed between the spark involved and the Landlord beforehand? If not then they should have been.

The way the OP has presented the information to us is that he wasn't given the choice, or, more importantly the opportunity to get another quote.

A photo of the board would be useful.

As for lettings and estate agents - they have a pretty awful reputation for this sort of thing and I normally decline opportunities from said organisations ............... I do work directly for home / flat owners and make sure that they understand the ins and outs of what is needed ............ and often suggest they get a 2nd opinion.

I don't want to get in between the two of you , but my eldest has rented for over ten years, and moved several times due to work etc. Slightly off topic, first time he moved we cleaned. Ended up getting 'fined' for dust on top of mirrors etc. Next time he moved, we got a cleaning company in. Letting agent said wasn't clean enough, should of used one we recommend, fined! Next time we used one recommended by letting agent, fined 'cos it weren't one used by that particular housing association. Next one we used everyone recommended by all, tried to fine 'cos the oven that was professionally cleaned, wasn't cleaned enough! This time we had enough and said -------s, sues us. Silence was golden.

I know there are some ---- tenants out there, but the rest seem to have to pay for it. Rant over.

Hope your not like this Peter.

PS underlined wasn't quite right, we had to respectfully refer them to the fact we used who their all recommended.

 

[sparksburnout]

The way the OP has presented the information to us is that he wasn't given the choice, or, more importantly the opportunity to get another quote.

A photo of the board would be useful.

As for lettings and estate agents - they have a pretty awful reputation for this sort of thing and I normally decline opportunities from said organisations ............... I do work directly for home / flat owners and make sure that they understand the ins and outs of what is needed ............ and often suggest they get a 2nd opinion.

Hey, don't get me wrong. Estate agents, letting agents in particular, lower than a snakes --- in my opinion. They are all part of the modern disease that is rental. Trust me, I know, my lad has suffered from the worst of them. The one I deal with is OK though, there are some. Like I said earlier, maybe we are not in full possession of all the facts here, I am just trying to look at it from the sparks point of view, however now we are into charging for up front RCD's you have to start wondering.

 

[Pete999]

H

I have not received the report yet, I guess it is in the post. It will be interesting to see what it says.

You should have recievedthe report at the end of the job, before he got paid, some guys will dispute that I'm sure.

 

[elsparko]

in fairness though the sparky could have moved the circuits down and fitted an rcd in the spare 2 ways