The worst install ever (maybe?)

[Earthstore]

Here is the update as promised.
I did take on board the many comments made on this thread, as I have pointed out it is all very complex, anyway, called the company in question and spoke to the MD about my concerns, the top row of panels (landscape) were fitted temporary as they had to be moved from the garden, my comment was "well I would have put them back in the van if they needed to be moved".
Our conversation was very civil, although he was surprised that I had gained access to this area that is hidden from view.
There is a special framework being made to overcome all of the problems, and should be installed this week.
What is strange about all of this is one of the people involved in the installation site is responsible for the Health and Safety, even though they know nothing about Solar PV or roof structures had already told me they were happy with the install.
My take on this is; it should have never been left like this at all, deadline or not, it is plainly not safe and against many regulations.
So I have done the best I can, and I have spoken up, and it is going to be rectified.
I look forward to quoting against this company in the future..
So that is me done for this thread (I hope)
Regards to all.

 

[JD6400]

Not that it matters , and i agree they should not be named on here at least !
But was the offending company one that posts on the forum or not , as i am sure their are a few on here probably jumping to the wrong assumptions for possibly no reason ?

P.s I think you have handled this one very well as it could have been a very tricky one to get involved in by the sounds of it !

 

[edexlab]

Interesting thread ,at least things are being resolved for the customer although it could just as easily be a case of the temporary install ''it'll be alright for a week or so'' could have caused damage or even injury to someone and as someone posted should have been taken down ,we've all been to jobs where the surveyor has made errors and had to work around problems .

Personally I'm not the whistle blowing type , although I think the argument sways towards it as it makes people conscious of what they do and is intended to raise standards , I've heard too many people say the usual comments like'' can't see it from my house'' etc and then boast that they are the best around, this is a reflection on the culture , training and general attitude to many so called tradesmen nowadays .
I have made a call once or twice in extreme circumstances, but if done in a fair way which gives the company chance to rectify things it is the right thing to do, if they don't respond then they don't deserve to profit from poor work what ever the reasons .

The so called Pv police well, when the governing bodies we all belong to and pay fees to don't react, then someone should as some of these jobs will inevitably damage the industry sooner or later, which all morals aside directly affects our livelihoods .
btw it wasn't me !.

 

[babba]

After all that drama and passion no video on youtube of the MCS police kicking in doors and taking the bad installer away to jail...come on earthstore you can do better than this...

 

[SRE]

Just before the December deadline I noticed an installation in our village that voided the warranty. I agonized for ages about whether to tell the customer or not and dithered so long I didn't do anything. Co-incidentally we're installing in another nearby village and they know the people in the house concerned. They had expressed concern about whether their friends' panels would stay on such a high roof with the wind we have locally and this gave me the opportunity to suggest that if they weren't sure to have it checked by the other company. Fingers crossed that should sort it out and the roof kit will be re-fitted to meet warranty requirements. We all rushed towards the deadline and using sub-contractors as this firm do does leave the possibility of a rush job.

Well handled Earthstore, a difficult dilemna when H & S is involved.

 

[moggy1968]

full marks for diplomacy, better than I would have done!
glad it looks to be getting sorted out

 

[Eco Deal]

you have yet to confirm weather or not the installation was by a member of this forum?

 

[Gavin A]

you have yet to confirm weather or not the installation was by a member of this forum?

*relights pitchfork*

 

[moggy1968]

well, if they weigh the same as a duck..................

 

[moggy1968]

As per the moderators request, I'll address this by PM, I don't think it's appropriate on here

How odd, no reply to my PM?

 

[babba]

I think he's at kick boxing classes hope you did not put your home address on the PM

 

[moggy1968]

As before, I am easilly traceable through my profile. I have no problem being accountable for what I say.

P.S.
I didn't spend 23 years in the army learning flower arranging!:83:

 

[babba]

It would be a very boring place without a bit of banter..

 

[moggy1968]

:6:
indeedy!
my 11 year old has taken up kick boxing. I'm waiting for him to think he can have a pop at his old man:dizzy2:

 

[pwboston]

As before, I am easilly traceable through my profile. I have no problem being accountable for what I say.

P.S.
I didn't spend 23 years in the army learning flower arranging!:83:

Which is a real shame, because there will possibly be more work in flower arranging compared to Solar PV

 

[moggy1968]

The learning how to kill people might come in handy should I bump it barking or loon:66:

 

[Earthstore]

Well, here you go, they now have a new mounting system, which is ballasted at the top end, I could nit pick on several points, but as I said before, I am not the PV police.
Shame they left the panel in pic 3 so dirty though.

 

[nikinoo70]

Surely the customer did not pay for that mess.

 

[sedgy34]

wooooooowwwww!!!!! just seen the pics

 

[Eco Deal]

was the actions to redo the job down to the posting on here?

 

[Earthstore]

I thought this post had concluded 6 weeks ago...
As to your question MEP, I can not answer I am afraid, but all I do know it is far better than it was.
:77:

 

[Eco Deal]

its is far better i agree

 

[moggy1968]

in the same way that syphilis is better than herpes?:wink5:

 

[Orffyreus]

Definitely a bad install, everyone knows you should use hard wood or at least pressure treated timber to hold panels in place.

Wonder if they included the shading in the PV benefit analysis?

 

[MorganPVI]

I think the trapezoid posted by Prince is a far worst install, this one has it's own comedy value, but princes post is wrong on so many levels it will take some beating.

 

[solarcat]

When I tought had seen it all...

This is what I saw on Sunday! Sorry, the pic is rather bad, but I didn't dare getting any closer...

 

[SolarCity]

I think we can safely say that that is a DIY install.

 

[solarcat]

Agree, I wouldn't trust this guy to change a light bulb..

 

[JD6400]

That has just got to be your own house , and you have just laid them on the hedge and what ever else you could find , just for the crack !?
Please tell me that is the case .:shocked:

 

[solarcat]

That has just got to be your own house , and you have just laid them on the hedge and what ever else you could find , just for the crack !?
Please tell me that is the case .:shocked:

Afraid not...mg_smile:

 

[whinmoor]

I presume they fell off the roof and landed like that?

 

[moggy1968]

what ground mount system is that, I like it!

 

[drew35]

I've been holding back comments on PV installs for a long time but I'm finally opening my mouth, and putting my tin hat on.
I am yet to see, in my area, what I would call a good install. And I don't mean I'm being picky over silly things, I mean downright poor installs.
I initially put it down to the "gold rush" of installs, then the rush to start a job and get it notified before the FIT rate dropped, but I'm still seeing them.

Just last week whilst carrying out an EICR, a fault that I've seen several times, the feed in MCB laying inside the consumer unit. I've never yet seen one fitted that's the same make as the CSU, but say a Crabtree board with plug in MCBS, then the standard MCB won't fit so just lay it in there and connect it with cable.

The feed in MCB is fitted on one of the RCD's with no labelling anywhere to say when the RCD's tripped the circuits will all still be live. No duel supply stickers anywhere.

And also last week when going to fit an extra socket for an old guy, I went to turn of the CSU which is in a shoe cupboard in the entrance hall. The cupboard is only about 2ft deep, and the inverter is fitted on the back wall, and to one side. There is a piece of tile batten wedged between the inverter and the door frame, when removing the tile batten (out of interest) the inverter cover falls off?

So many customers complaining about their PV installs, one woman has had a company back eight times, with eight different wireless displays, non of which work. The reason, the walls are 2ft of stone and the signal needs to get through three of them? Luckily I'd rewired that house so I managed to hard wire it without much of a problem, problem solved.

I think the PV thing was seen as a big money maker, and so the worst of the worst thought it was a license to print money. And that's why we're seeing these quality installs. I just know my heart sinks when I turn up at a property to carry out work and see panels on the roof.

Sorry.

 

[SRE]

It's always a mistake to tar everyone with the same brush :sad3: there are thousands of great installations out there as well as a significant number of poor ones. All we can hope to do through the forum is encourage customers to be very careful about their selection of installer. Price shouldn't ever be the only deciding factor.

 

[SolarCity]

I am yet to see, in my area, what I would call a good install.

I can only assume that you live in a very small area.

 

[moggy1968]

we don't work in Wales, maybe thats the reason?:smartass2:

 

[JD6400]

In fairness to Drew35 , I have to say that probably somewhere between 35-45% of installs i have seen ( All be it just driving by on a lot of them .) have had glaringly obvious faults with them and quite frankly have taken the shine of being able to call both myself and our company solar pv competent !
Along with the fact that i personally could not trust the government to stand by what had been agreed , so i intern i cold not then tell a client what could quite easily turn out to be a lie in the end , being one of the main reasons for dropping our MCS , it was also the staggeringly vast amounts of chancers and bare face lier's that were coming in to the market every day at one point that also made my mind up !
And if you take in the fact of that i live out around Skeggness and run our company from Buckinghamshire down as far to even the south coast , that is a fair foot print to go from .

 

[SolarCity]

In fairness to Drew35 , I have to say that probably somewhere between 35-45% of installs i have seen ( All be it just driving by on a lot of them .) have had glaringly obvious faults with them

I would say that that figure was a lot more like it from our experience. There IS a lot of rubbish out there but there are also plenty of decent installs.

 

[The Solar King]

What frustrates is seeing installs where I have advised a prospective customer against PV because sufficient panels cannot be fitted in a compliant manner and/or it is simply not viable. I have to conclude that these people have either been lied to by someone else or are just plain stupid.

I am certain that many competitors are not doing wind calcs, not using sufficient mounting brackets, and would not know a non-standard roof construction if it slapped them repeatedly in the face. Shading is something to be ignored or played down. Working to the DTi 3rd Edition that is due this month will make life even more interesting.

Of the the four installs nearest my house (none of which I had any involvement in) three are either non-compliant or completely bonkers. The customers may not know the full consequences until it is too late. They will either not get the FIT payments they were told systems would generate, or several storms down the line the whole lot will be in the garden. This is only the roof side that is visible. What is the electrical side like?

What makes this worse is that my MCS assessment this year is desktop only. This is unbelievable for the very reasons discussed in this thread. This is what is allowing the high level of non-compliant installs to continue. This is in no one's interest.

The only answer I can see to all of this is stiffer assessment with greater site inspection. This is all about outcomes.

I better go and do some work before I get too angry.

 

[SRE]

What do you mean desktop? No site visit at all just QMS? Got ours tomorrow and we've got to do a site visit.

 

[The Solar King]

I mean office and desktop. No site visits. Attached is the Surveillance Plan for later this month. This is Year 3 of Solar Thermal and Year 2 of PV for us.

Draw your own conclusions as to the veracity of this. I have absolutely no problem with being assessed on any or all of the installs we have undertaken. I would think most regular contributors to this site are of a like mind.

 

[SRE]

So as long as your paperwork is fine it doesn't matter about your installation - how does that work? You're right we'd be happy for them to look at any of our jobs, this is our first surveillance visit but it's 10 months ovedue - not that I'm complaining!

 

[SolarCity]

I mean office and desktop. No site visits.

The idea that there should ever be an office and desktop visit and no site visit is beyond staggering in my opinion.

The MCS should be allowed to contact anyone on the installation database and choose where they visit.

 

[finewine]

Braintree Essex. Definitely not the worst install in terms of workmanship but the panels are in full shade all day during the summer and dappled during the winter / spring. God knows what they paid or what return was quoted on these.

 

[Gavin A]

not just allowed, they should be obliged to do random assessments of eg 1-5% of all installations, just as is the case for EPC assessors.

At the moment the only time an MCS company might get a visit outside of the assessment is after a serious complaint, but if the customer doesn't know what to look for then they ain't going to complain.

 

[Eco Deal]

agreed ! I think you should also be watched testing the installation like Part P.

 

[Gavin A]

agreed ! I think you should also be watched testing the installation like Part P.

yep.

tbh as well, I don't think the entire model of full time assessors actually works with this industry, as there simply isn't the base of timeserved installers wanting to hang up their tools after 20-30 years and become an assessor, so we're being assessed by people who've either got no direct industry experience, or very minimal experience in a very fast moving industry with significant technological improvements going on basically on a quarterly basis.

I reckon there needs to be a system whereby experienced installers with eg over 100 installs, firstly get assessed themselves via site checks on 10 random installs, and on site assessment of testing procedures etc, and then get paid to conduct quarterly inspections of a randomly generated list of installations in their area that excluded their own installations (eg in the month after each FIT deadline), with maybe 10 assessors per area, and each company having installs assessed by minimum of 3 assessors, who would then give the company feedback on their installs, any non-conformities, and discuss any suggestions for improvements with them.

Under the new MCS standards I'd suggest those doing the assessment would have to be level 3 installers and a named technical nominee for that company.

Or possibly to avoid conflict of interest, the assessors would do 2-3 day quarterly stints in another area of the country entirely.

Something like that would be a way of rapidly raising standards across the industry without all this petty beurocracy. One thing's for sure, the current system simply isn't fit for purpose, and the training, assessment and guidance systems currently in place are the major cause of widespread bad practice within the industry, rather than companies actually deliberately taking the **** IMO.

Actually, if enough people think there's any milage in this sort of idea I might work it up a bit better and suggest it / maybe see if we can run a voluntary pilot scheme between us or something.

 

[SolarCity]

I think that idea is really interesting. Do you think there would be enough people in the industry that would be happy to do it? It would need quite a lot to make it work.

 

[solarsavings]

Jesus it gets worse. Theres more than enough installers out there waiting to cut their competitions throat and you want you give them the knife. Give me a break.

 

[Gavin A]

I don't know, but I suspect that most companies are in a similar position to us, where it could actually be a bit of a bonus for their experienced installers to have 3 days paid work once a quarter in the period after the cut deadline, and it'd benefit those installers as well in terms of them being able to meet up with the other assessors / see how other companies are doing things, as there's always new tips to pick up and pass on.

As for whether it'd work as a voluntary pilot scheme... erm, well I dunno really, but I suspect the will is there from enough people on this forum at least to make it work. Whether any companies would be happy to subject themselves to voluntary external assessment as a quality assurance system, with the benefit of being given feedback and advice in a way that would have no impact on their accreditation... not sure, but I suspect there'd be enough interest to make it work as a pilot scheme.

Tbh, we'd probably also have to make it that the companies supplying the assessors also had their installs assessed first, both to check the quality of their work first, and also to make it all a bit more equitable.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know that I certainly get and answer a fair few queries from installers I've never met / have no association with via PM's on various boards with technical queries, and happily answered them, so I reckon there are enough installers out there happy to seem out and take advice to make a pilot work.

I do seem to be talking myself into something here though...