Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

[Mike Johnson]

A Government run scheme would have to be overseen by the HSE who are not set up to administer electrical installations, jobs for the boys come to mind, to set up such an organisation would take months of planning and special committees to prepare a report on how to set it up, then recruitment would start from within the Civil Service, first class honours degree a minimum standard overseen by a minister, but then the most essential part is setting up a committee to name the department, that would take at least a couple of years, any suggestions? I would go for Committee Responsible for Administration of Power Supplies or C.R.A.P.S.

 

[Lister1987]

Think it's a bit unprofessional; ending an email with kisses

 

[UNG]

Upon asking for an update with regards to my complaint this is what I received. What do we think my next steps should be?

Had dealings with the NICEIC twice in the last six months about two installs done by two different tos$pots....They just dont want to know which makes them tos$pots also

As the NICEIC are a UKAS accredited organisation I would elevate the complaint to UKAS , at the bottom of the contact us page "I have a complaint or wish to give feedback about UKAS or one of UKAS’ accredited organisations" which gives phone and email contact details

Maybe it needs the UKAS assessment people to ask questions of the NICEIC I don't see how you can have a complaints procedure and not inform the person making the complaint whether the complaint is upheld or not. To sight confidentiality as a reason for not informing the outcome of a complaint is a bit of a poor and weak excuse when any complaint involves not only the reputation or lack of that the contractor has shown but also that of the NICEIC as they are the ones who have assessed the contractors competence
I just wonder how many more nails are needed before the NICEIC is dead and buried as a once respected organisation you can't live on your past reputation when the industry is now going to the dogs on the back of making a quick buck and no doubt a pay bonus for those running it

 

[Petej999]

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

Bad news for the NICEIC if it's true

 

[Mike Johnson]

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

 

[Petej999]

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

Oh no

 

[Mike Johnson]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

 

[Lister1987]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

It's not April 1st for a few more days Mike

 

[UNG]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

If only it was true

 

[Mike Johnson]

Only the members can make it happen.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Only the members can make it happen.

I would happily refuse to pay in a joint resignation / protest

 

[Garyburger]

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

 

[DefyG]

Poor Earth - Whatever that means, doesn't mean No Earth!

Surely an FI (Unsatisfactory) on the EICR?

 

[Dartlec]

I’m asking a similar question about no earth into a block of 6 flats
I have attached an email from 3 years ago
Any advice please

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

 

[Garyburger]

Did you get the EICR in the end? If so, what did it say for the type of supply? (TN-C-S, TN-S or TT)?

If they were purpose built flats then a suitable earth should have been provided (and it's possible there is foundation earthing or similar in place). Do you know when they were built?

The main issue of concern with your reading would be to ensure that it is a suitable earth rod or equivalent and not provided via copper water piping or similar. That should have been checked at the time of an EICR, though it can be difficult if there is common piping.

Even if the DNO couldn't provide a PME supply at the time, they may be able to now - though it can get complicated with flats as sometimes the building management has responsibility for internal stuff and not the DNO.

If you don't already, you will want to be checking your RCDs work by pressing the test button very 6 months to ensure they are still in working order.

If you can provide a picture of your consumer unit and your main fuse head/meter, it may be clearer, depending on how things are wired....

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

 

[Garyburger]

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

Hi
TN-S built 1960
The flat is rented out and is good condition all the proper lamps in the bathroom
I will check the RCD tomorrow
It said earth onto copper pipes

I did get the EICR

 

[Garyburger]

I did get the EICR

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

 

[Garyburger]

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

 

[DefyG]

I did get the EICR

Presumably 'Unsatisfactory' if the main earth connection is dubious?

 

[mainline]

I have just been told by UKPN to get a TT system
As a new connection would be so expensive

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

 

[UNG]

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

And a lot of those aren't worth the paper they are written / printed on
How does anyone lower their standards to get into these schemes

 

[ipf]

But now seriously
I thought that it was common for letting agents etc to only accept approved contractor status eicr, so do domestic installers just print their own or nip down to tool station.

It may be common but, let's face it AC, DI or cheapo down the pub, when talking EICR the most important word involved is COMPETENT (whether they are or not).
Are NIC insisting on AC's or not? Either way, it's not a legality.

I've been on about it for two decades, on here for the last one.
Started with PAT, on to domestic, then commercial and even industrial.
We see, in life and on this forum, an idea of just how rife is the rot. ....totally letting down and devaluing genuinely competent tradesmen.
It's a total disgrace from top to bottom....Part Pee stinks.

 

[Mike Johnson]

This happens in all technicians trades, if there is no official Government/Institute/association recognised qualifications to carry out a trade then there will be people who will take advantage, not really a surprise .

 

[ipf]

It does. A great deal of my early NICEIC work was contracting for local authorities.
Regular C of W was the rule. Now it's leave 'em to it. I watched it get worse in the 2000's when blokes supposedly in charge were coming to me for advice.

When I was a teenager, 'budget cutting' was a short back and sides.

 

[Mike Johnson]

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

If the local authorities insisted on a Qualification from a certifying body, this could all change, but the body would need legislating and assent by the Secretary of State to make it viable and not some fly by night organisation made up over a beer mat by a couple of blokes cashing in on the possible legislation.

Now lets think of a name for the body, suggestions on a postcard please.

 

[Midwest]

I don't think its a failure of the system, nor the bodies employed for the system, its more to do with the honesty of the individuals carrying out work.

I would argue that the vast percentage of members on this forum are honest individuals, who would only ever carry out accurate reliable works. Are they representative of all electricians, I doubt it.

Honesty has a sliding scale though. If one found a wallet in the street, filled with credit cards & cash. I would like to think most, would take steps to return the item to the owner. If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

 

[ipf]

COW now that brings back memories, as does RE and RA on larger projects. (anyone remember what they where?)

Registered is the key word, of course.

Maybe these days it's just stick to R Electrician.
It always has been R Archangel........coz only god can 'lay a finger' on the architect.

 

[UNG]

If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

At the rate banks are closing branches it might be difficult to hand it in

A few years ago I found a £10 note on the floor in one of the aisles of a supermarket I handed it in to the customer service desk who seemed totally disinterested, I often wonder was it reclaimed or just went in someones pocket

 

[Pretty Mouth]

If one found a wallet in the street, filled with credit cards & cash. I would like to think most, would take steps to return the item to the owner. If one found a £20 note under an ATM, would you hand it into the bank.

The former is very easy to prove who the rightful owner is. The latter, nearly impossible. May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

 

[Midwest]

May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

You've just committed theft by finding. Told you honesty had a sliding scale

 

[Mike Johnson]

Registered is the key word, of course.

Maybe these days it's just stick to R Electrician.
It always has been R Archangel........coz only god can 'lay a finger' on the architect.

Resident is the key word for Resident Engineer and Resident Architect they where the people on site to ensure the building was constructed in accordance with the design, in the day's of the RE and RA it was a requirement of becoming qualified to have spent at least six months on a project to learn the practical building methods, not just the design carried out in the office, this unfortunately does not happen anymore and I think construction is worse off for it.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

You've just committed theft by finding. Told you honesty had a sliding scale

Oh, sorry officer, I thought It was one I'd accidentally dropped myself officer

 

[Midwest]

Oh, sorry officer, I thought It was one I'd accidentally dropped myself officer

Sorry you can’t use that defence, you’ve already made your admission in #79.

 

[mainline]

And a lot of those aren't worth the paper they are written / printed on
How does anyone lower their standards to get into these schemes

The former is very easy to prove who the rightful owner is. The latter, nearly impossible. May as well go in your own pocket rather than the bank's

The legal way to do it would be to hand it in to a police station, then if it's not claimed within 28 days then it's yours.
What would I do? , would depend on the time of day, costa, or Burger King

 

[loz2754]

The legal way to do it would be to hand it in to a police station, then if it's not claimed within 28 days then it's yours.
What would I do? , would depend on the time of day, costa, or Burger King

Why would you hand it in to Costa or Burger King?
And what's the time of day got to do with the price of cornflakes? Is it because the police station is closed?

 

[mainline]

Why would you hand it in to Costa or Burger King?
And what's the time of day got to do with the price of cornflakes? Is it because the police station is closed?

I wouldn't eat a Burger King in the morning, but I do like a costa coffee, and neither of them are free.

 

[ipf]

Why would you hand it in to Costa or Burger King?
And what's the time of day got to do with the price of cornflakes? Is it because the police station is closed?

Cop shop? 5 miles to my nearest....used to be 500 yards.
They're cost cut shutting everywhere.............except Costa, Burger King, etc..of course.
Local bank's an ATM now.

 

[Simon47]

I don't think its a failure of the system, nor the bodies employed for the system, its more to do with the honesty of the individuals carrying out work.

I disagree.
While the primary cause is lying scum - the thing that lets them get away with it is the failure of the scams to police standards. When registered contractors can do substandard work or miss blatant faults when inspecting, and the scams do nothing about it, then there's precious little holding up standards across the industry. It will be interesting to see what happens with the two involved in missing the lack of earthing and lying about what testing/inspection they've done - my money is "nothing at all"

 

[UNG]

Cop shop? 5 miles to my nearest....used to be 500 yards.
They're cost cut shutting everywhere.............except Costa, Burger King, etc..of course.
Local bank's an ATM now.

At the local police station by me they closed the custody suite and now take anyone arrested to another police station about 15 miles away the PCC say it saves just around £630k per year somebody has recently costed all the police time lost in tranporting them to another police station when they could be policing the local area and local officers traveling to interview them and it is believed to be costing somewhere in the region of £1.3m people are trying to understand where the saving is

 

[ipf]

At the local police station by me they closed the custody suite and now take anyone arrested to another police station about 15 miles away the PCC say it saves just around £630k per year somebody has recently costed all the police time lost in tranporting them to another police station when they could be policing the local area and local officers traveling to interview them and it is believed to be costing somewhere in the region of £1.3m people are trying to understand where the saving is

Crazy! They probably save by paying less work persons and renting out or selling off prime land properties.
Rubbish, short term budgeting, probably.

 

[Midwest]

At the local police station by me they closed the custody suite and now take anyone arrested to another police station about 15 miles away the PCC say it saves just around £630k per year somebody has recently costed all the police time lost in tranporting them to another police station when they could be policing the local area and local officers traveling to interview them and it is believed to be costing somewhere in the region of £1.3m people are trying to understand where the saving is

Custody suites requirements have changed over the course of time. Just to have a couple of cells, and someone checking on prisoners every couple of hours is insufficient now, has been for some years now. Isn't viable for every nick to have a custody suite. When a police officer arrests someone, in takes them out of the system for a couple of hours anyway. The only cost is the time transporting, that is swallowed up by ground rents etc, custody officers, medical person etc etc.

 

[Midwest]

I disagree.
While the primary cause is lying scum - the thing that lets them get away with it is the failure of the scams to police standards. When registered contractors can do substandard work or miss blatant faults when inspecting, and the scams do nothing about it, then there's precious little holding up standards across the industry. It will be interesting to see what happens with the two involved in missing the lack of earthing and lying about what testing/inspection they've done - my money is "nothing at all"

I can’t disagree with your point of the schemes not doing something about transgressors, but are the majority not ‘law abiding‘ members? So it does something to uphold standards to a point.

 

[LukeD]

IF someone like "Watchdog" took a look at the industry and did a really good 1 hour special showing how pathetic it is .Perhaps we might see a much better control and policing of issues in the Electrical and gas world .

 

[DPG]

IF someone like "Watchdog" took a look at the industry and did a really good 1 hour special showing how pathetic it is .Perhaps we might see a much better control and policing of issues in the Electrical and gas world .

Last time I saw something relating to electrical work on Watchdog it recommended that people should use an NIC registered company so that there would be no risk of a bad job!

 

[UNG]

Custody suites requirements have changed over the course of time. Just to have a couple of cells, and someone checking on prisoners every couple of hours is insufficient now, has been for some years now. Isn't viable for every nick to have a custody suite. When a police officer arrests someone, in takes them out of the system for a couple of hours anyway. The only cost is the time transporting, that is swallowed up by ground rents etc, custody officers, medical person etc etc.

You take a very simplistic and isolated cost justification in an attempt to justify closing custody suites and not every police station has had a custody suite for many many years. The custody suites were generally only at the main divisional police stations for many years and this is now moving to one or two custody suites for whole force areas. A couple of hours to process an arrest is now taking 2 or 3 times that so most of an officers shift is lost
Once investigating officers have to travel to interview a suspect at a remote custody suite the costs start to escalate as I said in my previous post making savings in one way is massively increasing costs in another, savings and inefficiencies never seem to be looked at when making some of these decisions

IF someone like "Watchdog" took a look at the industry and did a really good 1 hour special showing how pathetic it is .Perhaps we might see a much better control and policing of issues in the Electrical and gas world .

Watchdog only perpetuates this myth that using a registered contractor is your guarantee of good workmanship and continually promotes the NICEIC so I doubt them doing any investigation

Last time I saw something relating to electrical work on Watchdog it recommended that people should use an NIC registered company so that there would be no risk of a bad job!

I saw that one, made me chuckle at the time

 

[Midwest]

You take a very simplistic and isolated cost justification in an attempt to justify closing custody suites and not every police station has had a custody suite for many many years. The custody suites were generally only at the main divisional police stations for many years and this is now moving to one or two custody suites for whole force areas. A couple of hours to process an arrest is now taking 2 or 3 times that so most of an officers shift is lost
Once investigating officers have to travel to interview a suspect at a remote custody suite the costs start to escalate as I said in my previous post making savings in one way is massively increasing costs in another, savings and inefficiencies never seem to be looked at when making some of these decisions

Watchdog only perpetuates this myth that using a registered contractor is your guarantee of good workmanship and continually promotes the NICEIC so I doubt them doing any investigation

I saw that one, made me chuckle at the time

We are going off topic but In my police force area, custody suites are geographically located to the main towns and cities. Oxford for example used to have a custody suite, now closed. As are a lot of front desks.
The time lost is down to other things, other than travelling for half an hour or so.

 

[ipf]

We are going off topic but In my police force area, custody suites are geographically located to the main towns and cities. Oxford for example used to have a custody suite, now closed. As are a lot of front desks.
The time lost is down to other things, other than travelling for half an hour or so.

It's getting bloody ridiculous, these days.........nowhere to have a decent nights kip after good night on the pop....

 

[Midwest]

My eldest used to sleep under parked cars.

 

[Simon47]

My eldest used to sleep under parked cars.

Doesn't sound very clever, what if someone drives off before they can wake up and get out ?

Having said that, apparently back in the days of steam, one of the fireman's checks first thing was to check there wasn't anyone sleeping in the firebox. On the big engines, this was a surprisingly large space (up to 14 feet long !) and it wasn't uncommon for people to crawl in as a nice warm space to sleep. Apparently there were more than a few cases where they weren't noticed before lighting up

 

[Midwest]

Doesn't sound very clever, what if someone drives off before they can wake up and get out ?

I know, he was a friggin idiot.