Vphase units

[thebassman]

Hi All


Any of you fitted one of the Vphase units and were there any issues with it , we have a customer who wants one fitted and he is supplying it, i have downloaded the installation manual and as far as i can see you need to do some mods to CU to separate circuits. I have arranged to visit him next week to see if there is room to fit it and if the CUs can be altered as far as i remember they are older Hager Mcb board fitted around 9 years ago.

Any advice would be helpfull and any problems that you may have encountered

DAnny

 

[Engineer54]

I think you'll find that no-one here has much time for these basically useless, expensive over rated gizmo's. Far better to spend the cost of these units and buy Led lamps for every light fitting in the house. You'll get a better and faster return on the investment too.... lol!!!

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Engineer54 is right, do a search on here and you will find this has been covered and the conclusion is they are rubbish.

 

[thebassman]

HI

Thanks for reply yes i tend to agree just spent the last hour on there web site down loading and reading there pdfs and what i can see is they have limited current 16amp then they go into bypass, the house we have asked to install it is really big i recently did a PIR for his insurance and i just checked there is 3 CUs 2 x 15 ways at point of supply and 1 x 8 way in upper floor, there is only one spare way. Dont think he is going to save anything the cost plus our fitting and i am sure the CUs will need changed the pay back time would be very long and the units have a 5 year life so where is the saving if you need to replace it every 5 years, anyway if reducing the voltage to 220v saves money i am sure the supply companies would do this themselves. I think i will be advising against it as i dont see any point in them thanks for your reply.

I have fitted a fluorosave unit to 250w son lighting in a factory whaich after warn up period the unit changed to energy saving and if any further load was switched on it switched out of energy saving for again 8 mins, i remember taking current readings at the two stages and they was a drop of 1kw on a 4kw load this factory has reduced there bills but they also installed a 12kw 3 phase wind turbine last time i spoke to them there bills had reduced by 38%, i suppose there are ways of saving but the vphase in my opinion is not one.

Danny

 

[thebassman]

Thanks to all replies they are useless

Danny

 

[davelerave]

they're bypassed over 16amps

wonder how far down the small print that is?

 

[Spudnik]

Actually, it is in the spec sheet Dave

 

[P Clarke]

The only problem I have found with me Vphase unit is someswitched mode power supplied device can produce high pitched noise. As do they work the answer is yes. Mine has stepped down the voltage from 254Vto 221V. Average household savings areover 10% with many of my appliance i have tested have reduced power consumptionby up to 24% for things like laptops andTV’s. Payback works out at 2.5 years formy house

 

[spark 68]

The only problem I have found with me Vphase unit is someswitched mode power supplied device can produce high pitched noise.

The reason for this is because SMPS have feedback from the secondary (output) side to maintain some form of regulation for the O/P voltage, it does this by varying the Mark/Space ratio, the time the switching transistor is on to the transistors off time, if the supply voltage is lower, the switching transistor is switched on longer to maintain the same output, and so draws more current than usual.
No savings here Iam afraid, it just pulls more current, you cannot break Ohms law.

 

[netblindpaul]

Ask Scotty,
It goes something along the lines of "yea cannae defy the laws of physics Captain"!

 

[Engineer54]

The only problem I have found with me Vphase unit is someswitched mode power supplied device can produce high pitched noise. As do they work the answer is yes. Mine has stepped down the voltage from 254Vto 221V. Average household savings areover 10% with many of my appliance i have tested have reduced power consumptionby up to 24% for things like laptops andTV’s. Payback works out at 2.5 years formy house

Payback in just 2.5 years, .....Only in your dreams mate!! I did have to laugh at the laptop you quoted, ...that'll really save you some money over the course of a year!!

 

[spark 68]

@E54,

The thing is E54 you don't save anything at all with electronics that have SM regulators in (post #9), ie. laptops, TV's or anything else similar for that matter, I would be doubtful if certain LED lights (the ones with electronic drivers) would save anything in this context (except the savings you would normally get anyway).

I still don't see where you make any savings at all with this unit.

 

[spark 68]

Actually you may save a little on normal incandescent lamps, but that is about it, because even CCFL energy saving lamps, if they work at all at the lower voltage, have the electronics built into these as well.

 

[Engineer54]

@E54,

The thing is E54 you don't save anything at all with electronics that have SM regulators in (post #9), ie. laptops, TV's or anything else similar for that matter, I would be doubtful if certain LED lights (the ones with electronic drivers) would save anything in this context (except the savings you would normally get anyway).

I still don't see where you make any savings at all with this unit.

Agreed, on the electronic SM regulators etc... The are two basic problems with these Vphase units to my mind, one is any straight resistive heating elements will take exactly the same amount of power, but with prolonged time periods, not good when your gasping for a cup of tea, or in my case coffee!! ...lol!!!

The other thing, and probably more important, is that these units are just not of a suitable rating to make much of a difference in cutting energy costs. All the larger appliances where you would like to see a reduction in running costs, will be excluded from this unit...

Even having tungsten or halogen lighting circuits running through these gizmo's ain't that much of a good idea, as reducing voltage to these lamps, will reduce the light output. Now that sounds daft to me!!!

I have yet to see a good review given to these Vphase units by a recognised consumer body, or anyone else come to that. All you tend to get at most, is bland obscure statements of equally non descriptive assumed savings. And that i think is another basic problem, virtually all claimed savings by this company, are totally based on too many assumptions.

 

[Guest112]

shall we all pitch in to make a energy saving device that does work? could be rich and we could retire. we should go back to using candles or just sit in the dark without the tv on

 

[spark 68]

The other thing nobody has mentioned yet, is what is the efficiency of this unit ?, as we know nothing is a 100% efficient, it must have some dissipation, by way of heat, so any savings you do make, and I use that term loosely, may be lost by the unit itself.

I asked these questions at the Elex trade show last year, and the Rep could not answer me then, and just went into "repeat mode" quoting obscure facts and figures.

 

[spark 68]

shall we all pitch in to make a energy saving device that does work?

Yeah Pete, Psst want to buy a perpetual motion machine ?
Only Joking, LoL:96:

 

[P Clarke]

Test it yourself. Use a Variac variable transformers and mains power and energy monitor. Step the voltage down by 20-30 V and see power usages drop, try different appliances. The current seems to remain the constant and the voltage drops. I agree saving can’t be made on resistive heating loads as they just take longer to heat up and energy = power * time. I would be interested in anyone’s measured data that proves my finding wrong. I would also be interested if anyone could explain the hard science and reasoning behind the sceptics instead of just been sceptical. Tesco have installed them at some of there stores and also have events to show they work.

 

[spark 68]

Re: SMPS

Test it yourself. Use a Variac variable transformers and mains power and energy monitor. Step the voltage down by 20-30 V and see power usages drop

I have tested in this way before, I was into Electronics long before entering the Electrical side, I have in a past life repaired SMPS (to component level) using a variac with an ammeter built in, and can assure you that as the volts going in drop the, current consumption increases (see post #9), P= I*V, no getting away from this fact

 

[P Clarke]

Yes your correct P=I*V and V=I*R. For example a lamp if its supply voltage is reduced it gets dimmer and uses less power. There is no black magic going on. For most if not all appliances work on a lower voltage, yes they will be dimmer or less powerful. For most appliances this drop in power or brightness is not noticeable. Yes a kettle become less powerful and therefore takes longer to boil so no saving is made there. But for everything else that does not have resistive heating loads in them just work less powerfully or brightly but still work perfectly acceptably. For my house most of my base load is not heating based therefore I find I save just over ten 10% on my electric bill. To a well trained eye my house may be appear to be 10% less bright than next door but I can’t tell. But the saving can be seen in my before and after daily meter reading. The only odd thing about it is the biggest saving I have measured is for my laptop switched mode powers supply which I through would of automatic compensate and increased the current it draws, but instead it runs much cooler. Voltage optimisation contains no black magic it just makes everything run less powerfully and dimmer and produces less waste heat. Therefore I may have to turn up my gas heating to keep my house the same temperature as before but gas costs 3 times less than electric per unit.

 

[Des 56]

Does the promotion of this nonsense never end

Even if all the claptrap spouted by its very few admirers was to be somehow possible in the physics of this universe
The economic argument alone should be enough to warrant opening the lid of the dust bin, in preparation for its natural home

The cost of the unit,the alteration of the consumer unit set up,the labour cost of the spark doing the work,the notification fee for part p,the hope of having somewhere suitable to locate the unneeded contraption and finally more money than the sense needed to manage those pounds
Couple that with the reality of little if any gain and the subject needs putting to bed

Thats my last post on this nonsense,a nonsense that has found the forum hijacked in order to persue publicity for a
failed magical fantasy item that some are silly enough to invest in

 

[Knobhead]

This subject is getting like toothache, it just won’t go away!

P Clark, I’ll ask you to be honest do you have a connection with Vphase? It seems funny that a new thread was launched on this subject and then you resurrect this old thread. It’s too much of a coincidence for me.

 

[P Clarke]

The saving I make on this device is between £60-70 per year based on my measured data. It cost me £180 to buy yes I had a friend fit it for free. Payback 180/65 =2.7 years. Yes I am promoting this device because I been really pleased with it’s a great energy saving device and of people have rubbished it. Do I have any links with company who make unit no. I am a fool I hope not. My qualifications and pear reviewed publications in the area of power generation efficiency suggests that that my scientific understand is sound. I don’t think that there is any reason for you to be so rude and nasty. I hope you’re pathetic out burst make you feel a happier person.

 

[Knobhead]

I’m not allowed to be rude and nasty any more, I’m on a formal warning with the board for that!

But I do have a nasty suspicious mind! That along with a trait for speaking my mind.

Hate me as you will but I’ll never be convinced of the use of the Vpower unit, it’s snake oil!

 

[Knobhead]

Now here’s a strange twist, we’re now joined by Gordon0707. Zero posts, but a thanks to P Clark for his defence of the “snake oil” unit.

Has my mind become that nasty and suspicious?

 

[Gordon0707]

Nothing suspicious here, and yes this is my first post on this forum. I have been trawling the forums in an attempt to find the best option for a 100 unit voltage optimisation unit trial project I have been asked to price on. My thanks to PClark on this one was simply a relief to my frustration that it seemed to be the only constructive comment in the thread, everything else purely dismissive with no content, as on a lot of the other forums.
I have had some limited experience with commercial versions and seen the technology working, I am disappointed that others seem not to understand that it can work. I do agree that in some cases domestically the annual bills are too low to justify the outlay, and am fully aware of the limitations regarding resistive/thermostatically heated items.
I have found three manufacturers of domestic units via my wholesaler VPhase, VO4Home (Powerstar) and VoltisHome (Marshall Tufflex) and have heard rumours that Wylex are soon to be doing one. Although my wholesaler stocks the VoltisHome I see little evidence in any forums of any comments on any unit apart from the VPhase, so they must be doing something right. The company I am pricing tells me that many housing associations are already installing them and indeed recommending them.
The three above all seem to produce similar savings but each in a slightly different way, and with drastically different costs. So having accepted that the technology works, and realising that some people do believe in it and are already fitting it or having it fitted anyway, my problem is still which one to go for?

 

[Marvo]

...........The three above all seem to produce similar savings but each in a slightly different way, and with drastically different costs.

I'd be interested on a technical level to see how the three systems achieve the same savings but in a different way. Can you point to some tech info that explains this?

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Surely if lowering the voltage to 220v was such a good thing and we would all use less energy, the suppliers would reduce the output?

 

[Marvo]

Didn't the DNO's in the UK already drop their nominal voltage from 240 to 230 for this reason?

 

[Gordon0707]

From what I've found out so far the VO4Home is basically a variable transformer that you set to reduce the voltage by a set amount, seems to be in 6v options. The VoltisHome is similar but part automatic (however, you have to test the incoming voltage first as they have 2 options depending on your incoming voltage). The Vphase uses 'anti-phase' voltage to maintain 220v which I am told works similar to noise reducing headphones!
I have only got the sales information from my supplier and briefly looked at the websites so not very 'Technical' I'm afraid, but all have helplines, just haven't had chance to ring yet.

 

[UNG]

Didn't the DNO's in the UK already drop their nominal voltage from 240 to 230 for this reason?

And I thought it was for european harmonisation

As I find regularly the quoted voltage may have dropped but the reality is still the same

 

[Mark_Burgess]

And I thought it was for european harmonisation

As I find regularly the quoted voltage may have dropped but the reality is still the same

I agree, as I have not measured lower than 243v over the last year.

 

[Engineer54]

From what I've found out so far the VO4Home is basically a variable transformer that you set to reduce the voltage by a set amount, seems to be in 6v options. The VoltisHome is similar but part automatic (however, you have to test the incoming voltage first as they have 2 options depending on your incoming voltage). The Vphase uses 'anti-phase' voltage to maintain 220v which I am told works similar to noise reducing headphones!
I have only got the sales information from my supplier and briefly looked at the websites so not very 'Technical' I'm afraid, but all have helplines, just haven't had chance to ring yet.

You have been seeing dismissive remarks on ALL the forum you have visited for a very good reason, domestically they are a waste of the house owners time and money!!

No-one as far as i have seen, have knocked the commercial units, which are a whole different ball game. Domestic units (vphase) are limited to 16A max and then go into by-pass and doing nothing to save energy/money. Commercial units will be sized to the type and size of loads they will be connected too, they are also far more costly than the domestic units too.

As for you saying that we, as sceptics haven't given reasons for being dismissive of the domestic vphase unit, who are you kidding?? Only yourself as far as i can see!! Very valid reasons have been put forward in every thread i've ever seen on any forum!!!

If you think that you know better than all these contributors, many of which are more than technically quallified to make those comments, then go ahead and waste your money. We would all love to hear of your fantastic savings after the first year. Except you won't be making any savings in real terms, for at least 5 years. But we'd still like to hear of these personal savings you make....

 

[poppypiesdad]

Silly question's then i'll run for cover ,

1/WHY DONT THE MAKE A BIGGER UNIT THAN 16a, would that not solve some problems
2/ COULD YOU NOT FIT MORE THAN ONE UNIT
3/ Just fit led/cfl's lights and switch off unessesary appliances

Im off to my bunker with a candle

Jamie

 

[Engineer54]

Didn't the DNO's in the UK already drop their nominal voltage from 240 to 230 for this reason?

Haha, .... it's a make believe,or virtual voltage they have in the UK now, the same as it is in Europe too. For some convoluted reason, the powers that be decided that Europe should also have a single voltage so they decided, ...on paper anyway to knock 10 volts off of UK's 240V (415/240) and added 10 volts to Europe 220v (220/380)?? So now, even though the voltages remain the same as they always were, we have this virtual or make-believe nominal voltage accross Europe of 230V (400/230)

 

[Engineer54]

Silly question's then i'll run for cover ,

1/WHY DONT THE MAKE A BIGGER UNIT THAN 16a, would that not solve some problems
2/ COULD YOU NOT FIT MORE THAN ONE UNIT
3/ Just fit led/cfl's lights and switch off unessesary appliances

Im off to my bunker with a candle

Jamie

Run for cover you might ...lol!!!

1/.... Sure that can make bigger but it comes with a bigger cost too!!

2/.... Sure you can fit 2 unit's too, at twice the cost again, (wonder how long that will take before pay-back?

3/.... Your best selection/solution, ...save your money and put it to better uses!! lol!!

 

[poppypiesdad]

Damm anyone got a light my candle's went out

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Silly question's then i'll run for cover ,

1/WHY DONT THE MAKE A BIGGER UNIT THAN 16a, would that not solve some problems
2/ COULD YOU NOT FIT MORE THAN ONE UNIT
3/ Just fit led/cfl's lights and switch off unessesary appliances

Im off to my bunker with a candle

Jamie

Hi Jamie, You might like to check out Voltis, marketed through Marshall Tufflex, this unit has a 60A rating before entering bypass mode. On the face of it a better compromise system, but I'll leave you and others on here to comment whether this is a good solution or not. I'm keeping my powder dry for a later date when Marshall Tufflex have answered my specific questions about the Voltis Unit.

http://www.marshalltufflexenergy.com/voltishome/

 

[Big n Daft]

Gordon, P Clarke,
Any chance you can bestow us with your background to the obvious knowledge you have to see the common sense behind these units. Just wondered becuase so many of here must be missing the point with our years of knowledge of electrickery.

 

[Gordon0707]

Big n Daft
Hope this helps
30 years with Seeboard/EDF the last 12 (I think) on industrial, but including energy marketing, contracting and installation inspection. Followed by a brief spell in electrical wholesale, I have gone back 'on the tools', persuaded by my cousin to take on his project work at a large UK holiday group, which he is looking to roll out voltage optimisation, both commercial and domestic, hence my original interest in the forum for the domestic. I have passed on the details and comments in this and other forums and he assures me he has looked and is still determined to go ahead following advice from his DNO. He tells me the figures he has been given, although not guaranteed, show combined payback in just over 1.5 years, the commercial unit for the main buildings is 1.1 year and the 250 chalets etc 3.2yrs. Additional savings expected in lamp maintenance etc. (Incidentally his DNO which I beleive is SSE recommended Vphase)
So that's me!

 

[Engineer54]

Big n Daft
Hope this helps
30 years with Seeboard/EDF the last 12 (I think) on industrial, but including energy marketing, contracting and installation inspection. Followed by a brief spell in electrical wholesale, I have gone back 'on the tools', persuaded by my cousin to take on his project work at a large UK holiday group, which he is looking to roll out voltage optimisation, both commercial and domestic, hence my original interest in the forum for the domestic. I have passed on the details and comments in this and other forums and he assures me he has looked and is still determined to go ahead following advice from his DNO. He tells me the figures he has been given, although not guaranteed, show combined payback in just over 1.5 years, the commercial unit for the main buildings is 1.1 year and the 250 chalets etc 3.2yrs. Additional savings expected in lamp maintenance etc. (Incidentally his DNO which I beleive is SSE recommended Vphase)
So that's me!

I'm gobsmacked!! All i can say is that there must be an awful lot of gullible people around if they are going to take energy/money saving figures on this scale without minimal guarantee's from the manufactures. Those payback periods seem way out, unless he's getting some big discounts on these units, and getting you to install them all on your salary. Why is it these people keep quoting lamp savings?? All your doing is reducing lamp output, and on Flu's of any type etc, you could well be saving nothing, at reduced voltages, may even be increasing consumption...

Assumptions are worthless and can be very costly when wrong...

If that is correct, ...in that DNO companies are advising house holders to go the vphase/or similar route to energy saving, ....Best not to take it... instead get yourself one of there smart meters so you can do your own energy saving by switching off what you don't need to be on.

 

[Marvo]

I agree, as I have not measured lower than 243v over the last year.

....they decided, ...on paper anyway to knock 10 volts off of UK's 240V (415/240) and added 10 volts to Europe 220v (220/380)?? So now, even though the voltages remain the same as they always were, we have this virtual or make-believe nominal voltage accross Europe of 230V (400/230)

I must have been absent the day they covered virtual voltages at college.

So they didn't actually drop the voltage at all......that's strange.

Then if a domestic premises has a voltage (an actual voltage not a virtual one ) of 240v and one of these optimiser units can drop it say to 220, if it's installed to supply circuits with mixed loads rather than pure heating appliances then in theory it could save maybe up to 10% of the energy consumed on those particular circuits.

If I take my own domestic installation and I used one to supply say the pool and irrigation pumps, the ceiling fan circuit that supplies all the rooms, my home office with computers/printers etc and the lighting circuits, why would it not save me up to 10% of that consumption?

 

[spark 68]

Hi Marvo,

The tolerances (not the actual supply voltages) were changed from 1st Jan 1995 to harmonise with Europe, ie. nominal supply = 230V and are as follows:

pre 1995 = Nom. 240V, +6%/-6% = 225.6V to 254.4V

From 1st Jan
1995 = Nom. 230V,+10%/-6% = 216.2V to 253.0V

As you can see from above, this was a 'paper exercise' only, ie. the supply Voltage was not changed, only the tolerances.

 

[Big n Daft]

Eng54,
I'm with you on this one big style.
Gordon,
The flack that will come from fitting these units WHEN it doesnt work is going to fun. The only reasoning behind them that could work is that all the appliances are designed to work at 230v, if you think that this will work in a modern home with all its electronic equipment then crack on.
I went to Vphase and was initially taken in, then I did some maths. Whatever anybody says the laws of physics are set in stone until proven wrong. The makers of these domestic regulators are very clever people, they seem to change the laws of physics to suit themselves.
How somebody of your knowledge is going to fit these things and get yourself in the firing line is beyond me.
Still thats my last words on these wonders of modern science.
Engy54,
Dont waste you time on this, you could be imparting your knowledge on other people.

 

[Engineer54]

I must have been absent the day they covered virtual voltages at college.

So they didn't actually drop the voltage at all......that's strange.

Then if a domestic premises has a voltage (an actual voltage not a virtual one ) of 240v and one of these optimiser units can drop it say to 220, if it's installed to supply circuits with mixed loads rather than pure heating appliances then in theory it could save maybe up to 10% of the energy consumed on those particular circuits.

If I take my own domestic installation and I used one to supply say the pool and irrigation pumps, the ceiling fan circuit that supplies all the rooms, my home office with computers/printers etc and the lighting circuits, why would it not save me up to 10% of that consumption?

I guess nothing to stop you saving a bit of cash, if all those loads are motor based. The lighting side of things will at the very best will just Dim the lamps, which is a bit pointless to me. Makes a bit of a mockery of ensuring VD calculations to lighting circuits are adhered too at time of installation!! lol!! The same with any purely resistive heating loads, you won't save anything, and things will just take longer to reach temperature etc...

I don't know about you, but if a piece of equipment has been made/manufactured to work at a voltage, with say a plus 10 % and minus of 6% tolerance (the tolerance is normally lower on reduced voltage) is it's life expectancy going to be affected by supplying that equipment beyond/outside that tolerance?? I'm not sure they can state, that such appliances will work more efficiently outside of stated manufacturers tolerances either!! I'd like to hear what the various appliance manufacturers have to say, about running there goods outside of there stated tolerances, what's the betting they would come back with guarantees being voided. ..lol!!!

Apart from anything else, the unit needs to be able to handle decent loading, before going into by-pass or whatever, canceling out any saving. You pays your money and take your chances. ..lol!!

 

[UNG]

The saving I make on this device is between £60-70 per year based on my measured data. It cost me £180 to buy yes I had a friend fit it for free. Payback 180/65 =2.7 years. Yes I am promoting this device because I been really pleased with it’s a great energy saving device and of people have rubbished it. Do I have any links with company who make unit no. I am a fool I hope not. My qualifications and pear reviewed publications in the area of power generation efficiency suggests that that my scientific understand is sound. I don’t think that there is any reason for you to be so rude and nasty. I hope you’re pathetic out burst make you feel a happier person.

There are so many variables on energy usage in the home it would be difficult to verify any savings made unless everything in your home is run on a like for like basis before and after installation of any voltage reduction unit

My thanks to PClark on this one was simply a relief to my frustration that it seemed to be the only constructive comment in the thread, everything else purely dismissive with no content, as on a lot of the other forums.

So one positive poster and plenty of negative posters sways your decision in favour of installing them I'll have to think about that one. The dismissives have posted plenty of reasons not least the fact that these units appear to rewrite the laws of physics that we all use in our trade every day

I have had some limited experience with commercial versions and seen the technology working, I am disappointed that others seem not to understand that it can work. I do agree that in some cases domestically the annual bills are too low to justify the outlay, and am fully aware of the limitations regarding resistive/thermostatically heated items.

Commercial installations may work in conjuction with PF correction. Do you expect every body to lie down and accept that these units work, there appears to be a bit of bu****** attempting to baffle brains here but I still think these units are like the kings new clothes

The company I am pricing tells me that many housing associations are already installing them and indeed recommending them.

So they have read a websites case study and been taken in

The three above all seem to produce similar savings but each in a slightly different way, and with drastically different costs. So having accepted that the technology works, and realising that some people do believe in it and are already fitting it or having it fitted anyway, my problem is still which one to go for?

I think you may be on the wrong site to expect an answer to that one as at the moment you are in a majority of two

The Vphase uses 'anti-phase' voltage to maintain 220v which I am told works similar to noise reducing headphones!

I think it helps if the headphones are turned down when listening to the claims and benefits these units offer

I have only got the sales information from my supplier and briefly looked at the websites so not very 'Technical' I'm afraid, but all have helplines, just haven't had chance to ring yet.

So you have made up your mind to buy / install these units based on the lack of techinal info on a website does it not tell you something if they can't be bothered or able to put it on their website

Haha, .... it's a make believe,or virtual voltage they have in the UK now, the same as it is in Europe too. For some convoluted reason, the powers that be decided that Europe should also have a single voltage so they decided, ...on paper anyway to knock 10 volts off of UK's 240V (415/240) and added 10 volts to Europe 220v (220/380)?? So now, even though the voltages remain the same as they always were, we have this virtual or make-believe nominal voltage accross Europe of 230V (400/230)

Went to a DNO presention prior to harmonisation, a guy talked for nearly an hour on various aspects and reasons for it's introduction and at the end said that they would not be doing anything to reduce the volage to 230v as the current voltages fell within limits

I have passed on the details and comments in this and other forums and he assures me he has looked and is still determined to go ahead following advice from his DNO. He tells me the figures he has been given, although not guaranteed, show combined payback in just over 1.5 years, the commercial unit for the main buildings is 1.1 year and the 250 chalets etc 3.2yrs. Additional savings expected in lamp maintenance etc. (Incidentally his DNO which I beleive is SSE recommended Vphase)
So that's me!

So if these units are so good why do they not guarantee the savings figures they have produced or have they been over inflated to make the payback look good

I must have been absent the day they covered virtual voltages at college.

So they didn't actually drop the voltage at all......that's strange.

Then if a domestic premises has a voltage (an actual voltage not a virtual one ) of 240v and one of these optimiser units can drop it say to 220, if it's installed to supply circuits with mixed loads rather than pure heating appliances then in theory it could save maybe up to 10% of the energy consumed on those particular circuits.

If I take my own domestic installation and I used one to supply say the pool and irrigation pumps, the ceiling fan circuit that supplies all the rooms, my home office with computers/printers etc and the lighting circuits, why would it not save me up to 10% of that consumption?

Is this another one getting taken in by this hype

 

[Marvo]

Is this another one getting taken in by this hype

I think that's a bit harsh, I haven't read their hype. You can save money on your power bill by using one of these, it's not bending the laws of physics. Problem is figuring out how much and obviously what the payback time is. There's also a lot of relatively complicated installation involved such as you would need to have it installed in such a fashion that it wasn't supplying heating loads such as electric stoves, kettles, ovens, and maybe microwaves etc. These would not have any savings and would infringe heavily on the max load before bypass and installing it so would escalate the cost in many existing premises.

I'll be honest and stick my neck out by saying there could/would be savings if...and it's a big 'if' ;

1. You have relatively high motor loads that run constantly and preferably predictably to avoid the bypass load threshold.
2. The gadget is installed correctly...or
3. The CU is a new install and it's design was around on of these being installed.

The final issue I see immediately is that you would only install one as part or an energy conservation plan. Where it slot into that plan is anybodies guess but almost certainly below things like upgrading insulation, installing double or triple glazing and relamping with CFL and LED lamps.

 

[topquark]

Pretty much entirely dependant on the types of loads and their usage.

 

[UNG]

I think that's a bit harsh, I haven't read their hype. You can save money on your power bill by using one of these, it's not bending the laws of physics.

I'm sorry if you find it harsh but up to now all I have seen is little information with unsubstantiated savings

If you can save money reducing your voltage with one of these units then please enlighten the sceptics on the physics of the unit

Problem is figuring out how much and obviously what the payback time is. There's also a lot of relatively complicated installation involved such as you would need to have it installed in such a fashion that it wasn't supplying heating loads such as electric stoves, kettles, ovens, and maybe microwaves etc. These would not have any savings and would infringe heavily on the max load before bypass and installing it so would escalate the cost in many existing premises.

Figuring out savings and payback is a problem that cannot be solved from the information I've seen up to now

A complicated install will only increase the install cost therefore increasing the payback period so savings are up the swanee for longer

I'll be honest and stick my neck out by saying there could/would be savings if...and it's a big 'if' ;

Do I detect some scepticism here

1. You have relatively high motor loads that run constantly and preferably predictably to avoid the bypass load threshold.
2. The gadget is installed correctly...or
3. The CU is a new install and it's design was around on of these being installed.

1. How many homes have relatively high motor loads to benefit from installation of one of these units
2. Why would you not install it correctly?

The final issue I see immediately is that you would only install one as part or an energy conservation plan. Where it slot into that plan is anybodies guess but almost certainly below things like upgrading insulation, installing double or triple glazing and relamping with CFL and LED lamps.

By carrying out all the things you mention it would be difficult to quantify any savings the unit may produce


I'm still not convinced by any of this tripe and becoming more sceptical by the minute.

 

[Marvo]

I'm sorry if you find it harsh but up to now all I have seen is little information with unsubstantiated savings

If you can save money reducing your voltage with one of these units then please enlighten the sceptics on the physics of the unit

The unit provides an output at an optimised voltage which is less than the usual supply voltage. How it does it is immaterial. Your question does however make me wonder what the losses are through this unit.....but I digress.

Here's the math as I see it;

If my irrigation pump and my swimming pool pump are both 1 kw and they're set to run sequentially without overlap and both run for 5 hours each.
If my usual voltage is 247 as someone stated previously and the vphase reduces this to 220v Then the drop in supply voltage will cause a corresponding drop in run current which equals a drop in energy consumption. If the drop in energy consumption is 10% after efficiency considerations then it will save roughly 0.1KW for 10 hours which is 1 KWh.

Do I detect some scepticism here

Very much so. As I said there would need to be strict criteria involved to achieve energy savings the might be worthwhile.

1. How many homes have relatively high motor loads to benefit from installation of one of these units
2. Why would you not install it correctly?

Don't know the answer to question 1 but I have a borehole pump, an irrigation pump and a pool pump so I would qualify as having a considerable motor element to my electrical load.

When I say 'install correctly I should have said 'install it in the optimum configuration so it supplies appropriate loads.'

I'm still not convinced by any of this tripe and becoming more sceptical by the minute.

I doubt I'll convince you to fit one cause I don't think I'd convince myself to fit one either. To be honest I don't know what price they retail for and I'm even more clueless on how much it would cost to install.
The actual savings would be very difficult to assess accurately as previously pointed out.
All I'm saying is the broad theory behind voltage optimisation works, realistically I think they may have a niche market in new build projects but I wouldn't like to have to sell them to Joe Public in large numbers.