Wagos on Final Ring Circuits

[John-SJW]

It was melting at the switch because of either a defective switch or because of a loose connection.

Exactly. A fault condition. A 1A fuse would have blown before a fire situation occurred.

 

[John-SJW]

there are perfectly good terminals on the socket..

Are they? Look again!

Using the terminals on the rear of the socket and using non-flexible 2.5mm cable, often means a poor connection. The amount of times I have taken out a socket to find the two 2.5mm cables have moved near out of the connection, or dropped out, is quite a lot. Wagos make a vastly superior connection than shoving two cables into one terminal that could loosen over time or be party dislodged when pushing in the socket using non-flexible cable.

Having Wagos secure the integrity of a ring is a great approach - superb in testing for the 1st fix. Then having flex from the superb connections Wagos give to the socket, with only only one wire connection at the socket, with no chance of the wire being dislodged in the socket connection as flexible wires are used, improves continuity and safety by a considerable measure. Ramming two 2.5mm cables into a socket terminal using non-flexible cable is a real dumb idea.

A win, win, all around. Safer! And quicker.

 

[John-SJW]

Wagos are not busbars, they don't have busbars inside,

They do. Look at them. I gave a photo of the bus bar inside them.

 

[LastManOnline]

Exactly. A fault condition. A 1A fuse would have blown before a fire situation occurred.

Nonsense. I, m out.

 

[DPG]

They do. Look at them. I gave a photo of the bus bar inside them.

You could say that about some other multi way connectors too, it is not specific to Wagos. It does not make them bus bars, or make them suitable to get around the multiple spurs from a single point on an RFC rule.

You seem insistant on finding a way around this regulation.

 

[Pete999]

Are they? Look again!

Using the terminals on the rear of the socket and using non-flexible 2.5mm cable, often means a poor connection. The amount of times I have taken out a socket to find the two 2.5mm cables have moved near out of the connection, or dropped out, is quite a lot. Wagos make a vastly superior connection than shoving two cables into one terminal that could loosen over time or be party dislodged when pushing in the socket using non-flexible cable.

Having Wagos secure the integrity of a ring is a great approach - superb in testing for the 1st fix. Then having flex from the superb connections Wagos give to the socket, with only only one wire connection at the socket, with no chance of the wire being dislodged in the socket connection as flexible wires are used, improves continuity and safety by a considerable measure. Ramming two 2.5mm cables into a socket terminal using non-flexible cable is a real dumb idea.

A win, win, all around. Safer! And quicker.

been connecting socket outlets for years 1, 2 0r 3 if care is taken it will be OK.

 

[boris1]

Exactly. A fault condition. A 1A fuse would have blown before a fire situation occurred.

I think it would be an excellent experiment if you could replicate this fault condition on a lamp switch with a 1A plug fuse and a 10A or 13A plug fuse.
Record videos of the two experiments and upload them. I’m am very curious to see the results.

 

[westward10]

Exactly. A fault condition. A 1A fuse would have blown before a fire situation occurred.

The fuse would only rupture if line/neutral or line/earth create a short, this may or not happen and by the time it got to this stage the operation of the fuse may be irrelevant.

 

[DPG]

Exactly. A fault condition. A 1A fuse would have blown before a fire situation occurred.

A loose connection causes localised heating, but does not cause the current to increase. An AFDD type device would be more likely to break the fault.

 

[boris1]

A loose connection causes localised heating, but does not cause the current to increase. An AFDD type device would be more likely to break the fault.

As someone who is not familiar with the British terminology, may I ask that you use full names instead of initials?

 

[James]

Arc Fault Detection Device

 

[DPG]

Arc Fault Detection Device

I said that without moving my lips ?

 

[MrMan1O1]

Ramming two 2.5mm cables into a socket terminal using non-flexible cable is a real dumb idea.

John-SJW earlier in this thread in the heat of the moment I made an un-thought-through comment about even current around the ring and was happy to be put right, so you'd be well advised to learn from my experience and pause two marching paces to give thinking time before deciding what is worth saying out loud.
You must surely be curious as to why so many don't agree with your theories and methods.
It was indeed fun at times but it's time for me to terminate my input to this thread. I wish you well.
Over and out.

 

[John-SJW]

You must surely be curious as to why so many don't agree with your theories and methods.

I am not curious or surprised. Tradesmen are stuck in this we have always done it this way mentality. A resistance to change. Comfofortable with familiar way and products. I have come across this all my life.

 

[John-SJW]

A loose connection causes localised heating, but does not cause the current to increase.

Please. ?
The plastic table lamp stand was melting about to burst into flames. A 1A fuse would have stopped it I am sure.

 

[westward10]

Please. ?
The plastic table lamp stand was melting about to burst into flames. A 1A fuse would have stopped it I am sure.

Only if a short occurred between line/neutral or line/earth and by the time this happens a ruptured fuse may be of no help.

 

[John-SJW]

Only if a short occurred between line/neutral or line/earth and by the time this happens a ruptured fuse may be of no help.

Or may be of help. I would rather have a 1A fuse in a lamps plug than not.

 

[DPG]

Please. ?
The plastic table lamp stand was melting about to burst into flames. A 1A fuse would have stopped it I am sure.

You still misunderstand overload current and the reason why a fuse ruptures.

And as for being stuck in the past - hardly! People on here are regularly discussing smart lighting, EV chargers, heat pumps, and lots of modern stuff. And I'm sure pretty much everyone uses Wago connectors (albeit as they are designed to be used).

 

[AJshep]

@John-SJW I'm enjoying the thread, and healthy discussion is good.
Personally I have no issue with change but my stance on it is..
Socket outlets terminals are designed to take multiple conductors, the terminals are fixed and they have gone through a testing process to comply with BS1363

Wago terminals are tested to mutple BSEN standards too, which cover connectors and more specifically spring type cage connectors. They are not busbars, and they are not tested, or covered in BS 5486-1:1977 or IEC 60439:1973

We are taught as electricians to work to BS7671, if we work to BS7671 we will comply with ESR, thats it!

Your method will probably never cause an issue, but if your using wagos in appliance grids (like you mentioned earlier on), and something did happen then you are going to have a hard time explaining yourself.

 

[John-SJW]

You still misunderstand overload current and the reason why a fuse ruptures.

I do? New on me, but I will give it a try. When the current is over the rating of the fuse. I got 10/10.

 

[John-SJW]

I'm sure pretty much everyone uses Wago connectors (albeit as they are designed to be used).

Here is their guide:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Wago/Wago_Guide.pdf

I see nothing that says you cannot use it to have a few spurs off the Wago, ultilising the internal bus bar to its advantage in a ring circuit. It does not even mention rings.

 

[DPG]

I do? New on me, but I will give it a try. When the current is over the rating of the fuse. I got 10/10.

Nope. They will hold at over the rated current for quite some time. But you were close.

What they won't do is rupture when there is a loose connection. A loose connection does not cause an increase in fault current through the fuse.

 

[John-SJW]

Socket outlets terminals are designed to take multiple conductors, the terminals are fixed and they have gone through a testing process to comply with BS1363

Two solid core cables in a socket, FCU's, etc, terminals is not a good thing at all. When pushed back, stress is on the wires/terminal. I have come across many that fell out when a socket was removed - they were tight before the socket was pushed back. The screws also work loose over time with expansion/contraction. Unlike Maintenance free Wagos. Two cables are never in a Wago terminal. One flexible cable is far superior into the rear of a socket/FCU etc. It just is.

I never suggested using Wagos in appliance grids. Another poster pointed out the clustering on a ring, or radial of a dedicated appliance switching module.

 

[DPG]

Two solid core cables in a socket, FCU's, etc, terminals is not a good thing at all. When pushed back, stress is on the wires/terminal. I have come across many that fell out when a socket was removed - they were tight before the socket was pushed back. The screws also work loose over time with expansion/contraction. Unlike Maintenance free Wagos. Two cables are never in in a Wago terminal. One flexible cable is far superior into the rear of a socket/FCU etc. It just is.

Now that is the first post of yours which I agree with. Well, mostly anyway.

 

[John-SJW]

Your method will probably never cause an issue....

My initial point was that the internal bus bar in a Wago can be used to take off a few Spurs from the Wago, when on a ring circuit. Below: the bus bars can be clearly seen on a three connection Wago (left) and a four connection In-Sure connector on the right.
Ring in and out of the end connections, making the bus bar a part of the ring, then two spurs off that, using the middle connections - all legal.

 

[John-SJW]

Now that is the first post of yours which I agree with. Well, mostly anyway.

Ah! We are getting somewhere! ?

 

[DPG]

My initial point was that the internal bus bar in a Wago can be used to take off a few Spurs from the Wago, one a ring. Below the bus bars can be clearly seen on a three connection Wago (left) and a four connection In-Sure connector on the right.
Ring in and out of the end connections, making the bus bar a part of the ring, then two spurs off that, using the middle connections - all legal.

View attachment 63948

It makes NO difference AT ALL whether you use the outer position or the one next to it. The connector is rated for the specified current. 5mm of copper makes virtually zero difference.

 

[DPG]

Ah! We are getting somewhere! ?

Yep, I agree that sometimes connections can work loose if people are careless. Always push the socket back, then re check the screws are tight before final fix.

 

[AJshep]

Ring in and out of the end connections, making the bus bar a part of the ring, then two spurs off that, using the middle connections - all legal.

Not compliant with Bs7671 though, that would technically be 2 spurs off one connection on the ring.

 

[John-SJW]

Yep, I agree that sometimes connections can work loose if people are careless. Always push the socket back, then re check the screws are tight before final fix.

That is time and effort. Then there is the prospect of the terminal screws loosening over time - happened on one of mine, an FCU supplying a dryer. The ring's current runs through those socket terminals, which is not a good thing.

Having the ring run through a maintenance free Wago in the back box, with a felxible cable into the sockets from the Wago is a far superior solution. The Wagos connections take the current load around the ring, not working loose over time. The ring's current flow is kept away from the socket's terminals. Current only flows through a sockets flex wires and terminals when the socket is switched on drawing current. Superior, safer and quicker solution.

In Germany they sell sockets with Wago connections on the back, making matters even easier and safer.

 

[John-SJW]

Not compliant with Bs7671 though, that would technically be 2 spurs off one connection on the ring.

Each spur has its own connection on the Wago, taken off the internal bus bar, not taken off one connection.
Look at the photo.

 

[AJshep]

Each spur has its own connection on the Wago, taken off the internal bus bar, not taken off one connection.
Look at the photo.

Its not a busbar, its a connector with multiple cable outlets.
I know you keep referring to the solid continuous piece of metal inside of the wago as a busbar, I get it, it even functions like a busbar. But its not a busbar its a connector, thats it's purpose and thats the standards its been tested too. If you want to convince me that wagos are busbars then your need to show us the relevant BSI documentation.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

@AJshep please be careful not to get sucked into this thing now! By condensing each point into just the width of one port on a Wago 221, it seems the OP managed to wire up an RFC smaller than its own Schwarzschild radius and it collapsed into a black hole. This is now pulling cables, sockets, junction boxes and possibly electricians too, across its event horizon. As the materials accelerate away from us, the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction makes cables look like busbars and busbars look like single terminals. Due to gravitational lensing it is no longer even possible to distinguish a ring from a spur.

The singularity beckons...

 

[pirate]

 

[DJAndy]

View attachment 63950

That's a bit bigger than 5mm. But is it a single point?

 

[pirate]

No, it's multiple pints...

 

[DPG]

No, it's multiple pints...

Multiple pints- nice!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Well if we're going to splice the ringmainbrace, mine's a Scotchlok Wiska.

 

[DPG]

I was a bit slow there I've only just realised that the 'pints' bit on Pirate's post was intentional and not an autocorrect! It's been a long week!

 

[7029 dave]

No, it's multiple pints...

I like plenty

 

[telectrix]

I like plenty

but does plenty like you? you could get a room.

 

[loz2754]

but does plenty like you? you could get a room.

A room with a bar. And a bus. Way to go!

 

[nicebutdim]

Spotted this video on Efixx and it reminded me of this thread:

MK Logic Rapid Fix.

 

[MJPD29]

Spotted this video on Efixx and it reminded me of this thread:

MK Logic Rapid Fix.

They are a great idea but at 29.99 each in screwfix I dont think I'll be sampling them

 

[nicebutdim]

That price is for a box of 5, although £6 each is still a bit steep.

 

[pc1966]

Spotted this video on Efixx and it reminded me of this thread:
MK Logic Rapid Fix.

Actually that is a brilliant idea!

Yes, a little on the pricy side but you can see it would lead to time-saving and probably far fewer problems of poor ring continuity in the future.

 

[MJPD29]

That price is for a box of 5, although £6 each is still a bit steep.

6 quid each isn't too bad but still expensive for a socket. Hopefully in time they become more common and come down in price

 

[westward10]

Fitted some 32A triple pole sockets a few years back with push fit connections. Lifted a plastic pin pushed conductor in then pushed pin back down. Wasn't sure about them but they gave no problems.

 

[DefyG]

Looking back at original posting to see what its all about, in ~13 JSJW quotes a method for terminating to socket outlets.
I use wago's to terminate for testing at first fix stage but then disconnect and terminate the single core conductors straight into socket terminals for second fix (re-using the wago's eleswhere).
I think (although never tried it) phaffing about with flexible conductor (extra cost and time) which 9 times out 10 would need a ferrule to terminate correctly would be less efficient?

 

[John-SJW]

They are £5.99 at Screwfix. When other makers get on board, with single, FCUs. etc, expect them to drop substantially in price, as did screwless downlighters.

They are well overdue. They still do not eliminate Wagos at the back of backboxes for ease of 1st fix testing.

I do not know what max amps the connections on the back of these MK Rapids is. I assume 32A.

Some 4mm radials go over 32A. So best fit a ring in that case.

Nevertheless, a great advance. We are still about 40 years behind Denmark, Germany, etc, where screwless sockets are the norm.