Was this standard practise???

[Carlos Arruda]

Was this standard practice back then? (1979).

A 30A rewirable fuse for two ring mains?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ckb0ikxntr5prkv/20150418_104206.jpg?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/ckb0ikxntr5prkv/20150418_104206.jpg?dl=0

 

[telectrix]

nope. looks like additions were made. a bigger CU should have been fitted. very bad practice, IMO.

 

[Pete999]

Same as what Tel said

 

[Pete999]

Albert
Not that anyone minds you asking questions, far from it, it's great to see someone taking an interest in things, why don't you ask the Mods for permission to gain access to the trainee forum, if you haven't already.
Can't wait for your next post, honestly a refreshing change, good luck in your chosen career.

 

[snowhead]

Seems to be other doubling up going on as well.

Are they really 2 rings or a ring and a couple of spurs/radials chucked in?

 

[Leesparkykent]

I'm enjoying Carlos aka Albert posting, it's nice to see the enthusiasm.

 

[Pete999]

I'm enjoying Carlos aka Albert posting, it's nice to see the enthusiasm.

Yep me to

 

[Octopus]

Hum.... are you a level 3? Strikes me your mentor/trainers have seriously let you down.

And yes this is VERY normal and who says its 2 rings? It could be 4 radials. What testing have you done?

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Hum.... are you a level 3? Strikes me your mentor/trainers have seriously let you down.

And yes this is VERY normal and who says its 2 rings? It could be 4 radials. What testing have you done?

Continuity between two cables.

 

[Octopus]

Continuity between two cables.

which 2.

What are you doing with this CU.

Seriously mate - get yourself in the trainee section

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Seems to be other doubling up going on as well.

Are they really 2 rings or a ring and a couple of spurs/radials chucked in?

From what I have seen, there's the following (left to right fuse & ratings)

1 = 5A (circuits not yet identified. initially thought to be lighting circuit for either g.floor or 1st floor but it has been proven that fuse N#2 is serving both.

2 = 5A for g/floor and 1st floor

3 = 15A (Immersion heater. 3.0Kw)

4 = 30A (ring main g/floor and 1st floor, old electrical shower has been taken from ring, no signs of fused spur.)

5 = 30A (2 radial + 1 serving the garage attached to the house, will change this to at least 6mm. one radial is serving at least one socket where fax is connected and a heat towel rail in bathroom)

6 = 30A (cooker, I do not know the cooker rating and the other is serving a fluorescent light on an external garage about 6 meters away. It seems cable has been berried on the ground.)

This belongs to a very nice gentleman (I've known him for over 10 years now, who's kind enough to let me get this up to today's standards, under the supervision, of one of my too generous college tutors. He will then certify installation.

It's a learning curve and I'm confident I can do it.

There's no pressure as I am not on a deadline. My tutor is yet to determine the go ahead provided all is safe to do so.

My initial suggestions were to change the 2.5mm cable serving garage attached to the house by at least a 6mm T&E clip direct on a 32A MCB RCD protected (about 5 meters run from main C.U. This would connect to garage dual pole isolating switch, thus avoiding the two RCDs in series issues. Yes the garage is also to be swapped by an RCD protected C.U.

Another initial suggestion was to replace the 2.5mm that serves the external garage by an SWA cable. If not, maybe due to costs, then I would have it on an RCD protected side under a 6A MCB.

So far, I have worked out that we need at least a 12 way split load consumer unit.

This will all be part of my practical assessment but more needs to be dug out as to completely understand what has been done here.

This is on a TN-C-S system.

Any opinions and/or positive constructive criticism is truly welcomed.

Regards,
Albert

 

[Carlos Arruda]

which 2.

What are you doing with this CU.

Seriously mate - get yourself in the trainee section

Will do Murdoch.

Many thanks for the pointer.

Much appreciated.

P.S. Say cables were numbered 1 to 4. I only have continuity between only two cables. Say cable 1&3 and 2&4 have continuity. No continuity between cables 1&2, 1&4 or cables 3&2 or 3&4.

 

[Pete999]

Murdoch made a good point, who says it's 2 ring final circuits, have you carried out the tests required to verify if they are Rings? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPKksOxQTPI

 

[Octopus]

Matey. Don't install dual boards. Install Hi-integrity.

AND I don't agree with somebody else testing and signing off your work, Its NOT the way to set out!

 

[telectrix]

definitely go with the SWA to the external garage. feed from a non-RCD way in the CU and fit your RCD protection in the garage, cost factors permitting.

 

[telectrix]

Matey. Don't install dual boards. Install Hi-integrity.

AND I don't agree with somebody else testing and signing off your work, Its NOT the way to set out!

but if his tutor is supervising the whole job, why not? carlos could sign for the install, and the tutor sign as QS.

 

[Octopus]

but if his tutor is supervising the whole job, why not? carlos could sign for the install, and the tutor sign as QS.

IF the supervisor is involved so much WHY is he on here asking so many questions?

 

[telectrix]

from his previous posts, it seems just a general thirst for knowledge. tutors can sometimes be wrong and a second opinion or 6 is worth having. unlike tutors, the forum is on call 24/7. lol.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Don't scare the lad off. As long as he's under supervision by his tutor I don't see no problem.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

from his previous posts, it seems just a general thirst for knowledge. tutors can sometimes be wrong and a second opinion or 6 is worth having. unlike tutors, the forum is on call 24/7. lol.

Telectricx,

You are bang on the money.

Many thanks.

I have asked the admin for access to the trainee forum as recommended.

Regards,
Albert

 

[Guest77]

Don't scare the lad off. As long as he's under supervision by his tutor I don't see no problem.

I have no intentions of scaring the Lad off, the tutor however= well that is different.

 

[Octopus]

Don't scare the lad off. As long as he's under supervision by his tutor I don't see no problem.

BUT posting step by step instructions in the open forum is not the thing to do as any Tom, Dick or Harry could act on it.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

BUT posting step by step instructions in the open forum is not the thing to do as any Tom, Dick or Harry could act on it.

Hi Murdoch.

I utterly see where you come from.

When it comes to electricity there should be no cutting corners.

But then again, in one of my tasks, the calculated CSA of a cable for an immersion heater came at 16mm.

Still, this is not what it is used on a normal basis or so it seems.

I am a bit annoyed (have been for quite sometime now) with the regs, giving calculations to determine a cable size, given the length and factors like Cc, Ca, Cd, Cf, Ci, Cg & Cs, and then this can be overlooked, provided that the size of the CPC supports any fault (PFC) to earth to the total current calculated with the adiabatic equation. Sort of one contradicts the other.

Still, all the help/advise I can get is priceless.

Many thanks to yourself and all others chipping in.

Regards,
Albert

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Matey. Don't install dual boards. Install Hi-integrity.

AND I don't agree with somebody else testing and signing off your work, Its NOT the way to set out!

Murdoch;

Apologies for the ignorance but what is the difference between split load C.Us and Hi-Integraty C.Us?

I have just been to screwfix online and a Hi-Integrity C.U. has two RCDs and also seems to be a split load C.U.

I must be missing something.

Sorry, but I believe there hasn't ever been any talk about Hi-Integrity C.U.s, unless off-course, I was on my face sleeping.

Many thanks.

Regards,
Albert

 

[telectrix]

Murdoch;

Apologies for the ignorance but what is the difference between split load C.Us and Hi-Integraty C.Us?

I have just been to screwfix online and a Hi-Integrity C.U. has two RCDs and also seems to be a split load C.U.

I must be missing something.

Sorry, but I believe there hasn't ever been any talk about Hi-Integrity C.U.s, unless off-course, I was on my face sleeping.

Many thanks.

Regards,
Albert

a hi-integrity board is just like a dual RCD board except that there is also the option of having 1 or more ways directly off the main switch and not through the RCDs. these ways can be used for a circuit that for some reason, you don'tr want or need a RCD, or they can each have a RCBO. eg. for a freezer, so that a fault on another circuit does not take out the freezer circuit.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Murdoch made a good point, who says it's 2 ring final circuits, have you carried out the tests required to verify if they are Rings? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPKksOxQTPI

Hi Pete999.

I have removed all cables out leaving only one and powering only this circuit.

Upon using my volt tester, I found voltage in one of the unplugged 3 cables. Other 2 were still dead.

Done the same on the 2 dead ones to find voltage was also going round and back in.

For me, without any other form of testing at the time, is good enough to let me know these 4 cables are two ring mains.

On top of that, I also used the two pairs for each circuit, and confirmed that one circuit is downstairs and the other is upstairs.

There was no voltage in any of the 4 cables when unplugged.

Many thanks for all the help.

Regards,
Albert

 

[Carlos Arruda]

a hi-integrity board is just like a dual RCD board except that there is also the option of having 1 or more ways directly off the main switch and not through the RCDs. these ways can be used for a circuit that for some reason, you don'tr want or need a RCD, or they can each have a RCBO. eg. for a freezer, so that a fault on another circuit does not take out the freezer circuit.

Thanks.

I thought I could still do this even on a split load C.U.

I did wonder if I could just use a separate MCB for the garage and have this not RCD protected, and have the RCD in the garage unit.

But as it stands, it seems all circuits need/must be RCD protected. Or at least in this case.

Many thanks.

Regards,
Albert

P.S: I might go down the root to have a separate RCBO to serve the garage, therefore the circuit supplying the garage would comply with the regs.

 

[telectrix]

Hi Pete999.

I have removed all cables out leaving only one and powering only this circuit.

Upon using my volt tester, I found voltage in one of the unplugged 3 cables. Other 2 were still dead.

Done the same on the 2 dead ones to find voltage was also going round and back in.

For me, without any other form of testing at the time, is good enough to let me know these 4 cables are two ring mains.

On top of that, I also used the two pairs for each circuit, and confirmed that one circuit is downstairs and the other is upstairs.

There was no voltage in any of the 4 cables when unplugged.

Many thanks for all the help.

Regards,
Albert

that was completely the wrong way to test. never work live if you can work with circuit/s isolated. in this case, you should have done continuity and maybe IR tests to see if the circuits had continuity end-end, and if they were cross connected one to another.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

I must say I am slight worried about the garage as there's an ARC welding machine.

It seems it pulls 180A on start according to the owner. I am wondering if a 32A MCB type C will handle this. One of my tutors said I might have to bump it up to a type D even, but it might the case of trial and error here. Use the type C and see how it copes and then replace it if need be.

He says he's never had any issues as the installation is and I am thinking he's on a 2.5mm CSA at the momen on a rewirable 30A fuse serving two other circuits.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

that was completely the wrong way to test. never work live if you can work with circuit/s isolated. in this case, you should have done continuity and maybe IR tests to see if the circuits had continuity end-end, and if they were cross connected one to another.

I do understand about the live tests and one cannot be to carefully.

I did do the continuity with my volt tester which also does continuity.

This is it.

I am not entirely sure about the 30A fuse number 5 with 3 cables. I know one is serving the fluorescent light at the rear and the other two look like spurs, as when powered, I had power on sockets on the hallway (fax and towel heater in bathroom) and the other one is powering a small conservatory.

Having said that, circuit dead, these two cables out and tested between them for continuity, they do have continuity, so I am wondering spurs? But if on a ring main, why one cable is powering hall sockets and other feeds conservatory? I did wonder if there was a break on this ring, cannot know with the proper gear, but again, testing for continuity with my volt tester, they pass.

???:whatchutalkingabout

 

[Guest77]

I must say I am slight worried about the garage as there's an ARC welding machine.

It seems it pulls 180A on start according to the owner. I am wondering if a 32A MCB type C will handle this. One of my tutors said I might have to bump it up to a type D even, but it might the case of trial and error here. Use the type C and see how it copes and then replace it if need be.

He says he's never had any issues as the installation is and I am thinking he's on a 2.5mm CSA at the momen on a rewirable 30A fuse serving two other circuits.

I am slightly worried about you doing the Job to be honest, a can of worms for a level 3 lad with no experience, I would suggest you get an electrician around to look at the job first, forget your tutor, he sounds incompetant, this is someones home fella, I am not being nasty, just realistic. Asking questions is fine of course, what worries me is your intent to steam in regarding this job.

 

[telectrix]

before changing the CU it needs much more thorough testing to find out exactly what cables go where and if they are true RFCs or inadvertently connected. this will save you a lot of grief when you come to test and power up the new CU. without sounding patronising, i think you're a bit out of your depth on this one. many experienced sparks have been confused when diy dave has had a go.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Hi all.

Been round the house and done a bit more investigating.

It turns out the 1st 5A fuse is serving lights for small entrance porch and lights in the back small conservatory.

A very bad assumption from me, thinking that the 2nd 5A fuse serves all the ground and second floor.

As it turns out, it doesn't.

Thanks everybody.

Regards,
Albert

 

[Leesparkykent]

Hi all.

Been round the house and done a bit more investigating.

It turns out the 1st 5A fuse is serving lights for small entrance porch and lights in the back small conservatory.

A very bad assumption from me, thinking that the 2nd 5A fuse serves all the ground and second floor.

As it turns out, it doesn't.

Thanks everybody.

Regards,
Albert

Have you checked the bonding is adequate, etc as well ?

 

[Carlos Arruda]

before changing the CU it needs much more thorough testing to find out exactly what cables go where and if they are true RFCs or inadvertently connected. this will save you a lot of grief when you come to test and power up the new CU. without sounding patronising, i think you're a bit out of your depth on this one. many experienced sparks have been confused when diy dave has had a go.

Not patronising at all mate.

I will be going round this weekend coming with my tutor's (fluke) multifunction tester.

He will show me how to use it as at college we only use/have megger.

Thank you for the input.

Regards,
Albert

 

[telectrix]

arrgh. fluke. the only thing i like about them is that you can sit on the box.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

arrgh. fluke. the only thing i like about them is that you can sit on the box.

Really?

I was very keen on getting a fluke as it seems a very solid brand.

I have a true RMS 179 multimeter and a basic cheep £40.00 so called hand held multimeter, all fluke and they are solid.

 

[Guest77]

Really?

I was very keen on getting a fluke as it seems a very solid brand.

I have a true RMS 179 multimeter and a basic cheep £40.00 so called hand held multimeter, all fluke and they are solid.

Very strange, you have these 2 testers yet test continuity with your voltage indicators as explained in one of your previous posts.

 

[telectrix]

always used megger. some of my megger gear is 40 years old and still going strong. use one of these for a lot of fault finding.

http://www.biddlemegger.com/biddle-ug/BM7-21822_UG.pdf

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Very strange, you have these 2 testers yet test continuity with your voltage indicators as explained in one of your previous posts.

These are kept in a separate tool case at home and only used in my electronics (laptop & computer repairs) really.

At college I was never allowed using my multimeter instead of my volt tester (fluke again).

 

[Guest77]

These are kept in a separate tool case at home and only used in my electronics (laptop & computer repairs) really.

At college I was never allowed using my multimeter instead of my volt tester (fluke again).

Did your Tutor tell you to test continuity with your Voltage indicators mate?

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Would my true RMS multimeter be any better at testing continuity?

Please note I am not talking about resistance. I know you can't have one without the other, but I was solely looking at continuity and not looking at any resistance values to start with. A learning curve.

Which perhaps, you are entirely right in your comment.

I suppose I could use it to test resistance.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Did your Tutor tell you to test continuity with your Voltage indicators mate?

LOL....

Not quite so MDJ.

We used the multifunction tester MEGGER for that.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

always used megger. some of my megger gear is 40 years old and still going strong. use one of these for a lot of fault finding.

http://www.biddlemegger.com/biddle-ug/BM7-21822_UG.pdf

What is that?

Looks ancient!

But then again, the old things were made to last.

 

[Guest77]

Would my true RMS multimeter be any better at testing continuity?

Please note I am not talking about resistance. I know you can't have one without the other, but I was solely looking at continuity and not looking at any resistance values to start with. A learning curve.

Which perhaps, you are entirely right in your comment.

I suppose I could use it to test resistance.

Well your voltage indicators are for testing plug top fuses are broken or not lol, you cannot get a reading proving a cable is damaged for example from those, they are fine for testing voltage, but you need a insulation resistance tester or ohm meter for real continuity testing.

Ps didn't get whether you said your tutor told you or not cocker.

 

[ipf]

After a quick read through, I'm giving up before I make a comment.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Don't scare the lad off. As long as he's under supervision by his tutor I don't see no problem.

So you see a problem then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vf8N6GpdM

 

[Carlos Arruda]

Well your voltage indicators are for testing plug top fuses are broken or not lol, you cannot get a reading proving a cable is damaged for example from those, they are fine for testing voltage, but you need a insulation resistance tester or ohm meter for real continuity testing.

Ps didn't get whether you said your tutor told you or not cocker.

Never mate.

Always used the multifunction tester.

The volt meter was just for testing purposes of sockets and proving C.U. etc.... never used for resistance test.

He did said if memory serves me well, that there's nothing wrong if you want to test a cable to check if it's broken (continuity) but that is all you'll get.

Also, this volt tester does (Fluke T150) read resistance but to be honest I wouldn't trust it. But I will compare it's reading to that of a real multifucntion tester on resistance and see how far it is or how close.

Fluke T150 Voltage/Continuity Tester | Genuine UK Model

Resistance testing up to 1999Ω

 

[Guest77]

Wellto be fair that does look like a nice bit of kit.

 

[Carlos Arruda]

After a quick read through, I'm giving up before I make a comment.

I believe you were once in my shoes!

Apologies if I am not as educated when it comes to electrical installations as most in the forum definitely are.

Their comments and help are very much appreciated. However bad the comments might be, as long as they are constructive, they are an enormous source of information.

Many thanks to those who are willing to share their knowledge and give their time to other such as myself.

Kind regards,
Albert