What is this and is it normal? Council electrics

[RyanA]

It's been almost 4 years since the council updated all the electrics in the house, at the time they moved the fuse box to the back wall rather than the side wall. Today curiosity got the better of me and I'm just wondering what this is, as it doesn't look normal. At the time a council inspector looked everything over and said it was OK.

Basically wires coming through the wall where the fusebox used to be, going into this little bar with screw things on it, they just plastered over all the wires. From the little bar are more wires going into the fusebox.

What is this, and is it normal/safe?

 

[static zap]

Green and yellow wire bundle ,your Main Earth Terminal (MET)
Keeping you safe .
(Disconnect -Nothing !)
..Now we wait for expert opinion on rest of mess..

 

[buzzlightyear]

welcome to the forum .not good really .that you see electrics like that .
just think you could be living in a tent.

 

[Jay89]

Looks like your Main Earthing Terminal. Messy job but not unsafe. They’re usually mounted near the meter

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

As soon as i read the first line "It's been almost 4 years since the council updated all the electrics in the house"
i knew it would be more likely than not that the standard or workmanship would be poor.
Have seen some right awful council rewires over the years, the worst was over in wales, all run in plastic trunking, wall mounted, the walls were that damp we had to screw it all to walls as the stuff kept falling off!
With these types of jobs its a race to the bottom with a focus on minimum of cost.

 

[RyanA]

So I guess touching the bar would be a bad idea? Shouldn't it be covered?

Stupid questions but I'm one of those types who thinks they'll brush past it one day by accident.

 

[Deuce]

Yes that's an earth terminal. It's normal to have such a terminal, but not normal for the terminal to be exposed. The earth circuit should be treated and protected as if it were live, as that's literally what it's there for. If there is a fault, to carry the live current back to the earth... So if you get a fault, that becomes live and it's exposed...

I'm not a qualified spark but I'd avoid fiddling with/licking the terminal.

 

[Des 56]

the walls were that damp we had to screw it all to walls as the stuff kept falling off!

Reliance on stick on trunking
Can't rely on the sticky stuff best to always drill trunking to the wall

There again,maybe I drill it only because I'm used to the damp walls in these parts

 

[Deuce]

Looks like your Main Earthing Terminal. Messy job but not unsafe. They’re usually mounted near the meter

Out of interest, how is that not potentially dangerous if there were a fault that led to the earth terminal carrying current? It is surely only there as it 'may' one day need to carry current.

Ignoring the RCD protection that must be present on the new box anyway, as that can fail and the earth terminal could carry current undetected for a length of time in some situations.

Just curious as to how that is safe?

 

[static zap]

....
Just curious as to how that is safe?

While it's connected its safe . (If it needed to carry current)
(any attempts to pretty it up , in an unskilled/untested way....
could make -- all Protective Earths in the building --unsafe)

 

[RyanA]

So in other words it's safer uncovered?

 

[static zap]

So in other words it's safer uncovered?

Whilst the MET is viewable its - inspectable ...
If concealed damage could go un-detected .
(in an ideal world )
..leave the decisions of relocation if that is part of plan to someone qualified.

 

[Deuce]

While it's connected its safe . (If it needed to carry current)
(any attempts to pretty it up , in an unskilled/untested way....
could make -- all Protective Earths in the building --unsafe)

Thanks but I'm still confused about this. I totally understand that having it visible/accessible means it's safe as far as inspection goes... And I understand that a bodge job to hide it could damage earth continuity and leave a greater potential danger.

But surely it is designed to carry current in certain situations, so it's not safe to be exposed. How can it be?

Why can't it just be mounted in the CU as in fairly typical these days. Surely that is safe in both regards?

 

[Des 56]

You used the word "potential" in your post

Food for thought If someone were to touch the earth bar, what else could they touch that can cause a potential difference to expose them to harm

 

[Amp David]

EMT not unsafe just down right rough. I’d like to know if the supply tails are burind in the wall. Make sure you dont screw any coat hangers up on the wall

 

[Deuce]

You used the word "potential" in your post

Food for thought If someone were to touch the earth bar, what else could they touch that can cause a potential difference to expose them to harm

The outer metal case of anything else plugged in and earthed - I did think about that

But it's still going to want to take the most direct route to earth, which is via that earth terminal. So I'd rather be touching outer case of anything else plugged in and earthed than that terminal the earth circuit became live.

 

[Jay89]

Out of interest, how is that not potentially dangerous if there were a fault that led to the earth terminal carrying current? It is surely only there as it 'may' one day need to carry current.

Ignoring the RCD protection that must be present on the new box anyway, as that can fail and the earth terminal could carry current undetected for a length of time in some situations.

Just curious as to how that is safe?

They are there as a direct path to earth. I presume the other two cables leaving the terminals will be the main bonding to the other services, which will have exposed metal parts also.

You would hope as the installation has been signed off by an inspector that any fault current would trip the RCD

 

[Amp David]

The outer metal case of anything else plugged in and earthed - I did think about that

But it's still going to want to take the most direct route to earth, which is via that earth terminal. So I'd rather be touching outer case of anything else plugged in and earthed than that terminal the earth circuit became live.

 

[buzzlightyear]

why are people complaining about the state of the electrics when people living ruff on the streets .bugs me

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

the walls were that damp we had to screw it all to walls as the stuff kept falling off!

Reliance on stick on trunking
Can't rely on the sticky stuff best to always drill trunking to the wall

There again,maybe I drill it only because I'm used to the damp walls in these parts

Haha... It was done by council on a contract i was on. They were bit funny at first when it all came off. When we started screwing they moaned about time and cost of screws and plugs.. . It was a case of as cheap as possible and as quick as possible. The old stuff was all left in place with backboxes filled with plaster. I dread to think what happened to that block of flats... Council barely maintained it..

 

[Deuce]

They are there as a direct path to earth. I presume the other two cables leaving the terminals will be the main bonding to the other services, which will have exposed parts also.

You would hope as the installation has been signed off by an inspector that any fault current would trip the RCD

Yes I mentioned the RCD earlier, I agree it's not likely to ever become dangerous because it must now have an RCD. But RCD's are not 100% reliable, even if recently tested. It just seems crazy to leave the final part of the earth network of the entire house exposed like that. What is the point?

 

[Amp David]

Like i’ll say again

 

[Deuce]

why are people complaining about the state of the electrics when people living ruff on the streets .bugs me

It's an electricians forum - seems like the right place to focus on what is right and wrong with electrical installations, not society as a whole..

 

[Des 56]

You may need to think about that healthy old "Bird on the wire"

Then consider why we use cpcs and install bonding conductors to create a equipotential zone, what the fruits of having that zone means for our safety

Edited to give my opinion
Earthing and bonding is the age old and most reliable No 1 safety feature
Rcds are best thought of as maybe being necessary, but they are more of a back up rather than the main safety item

 

[Deuce]

You may need to think about that healthy old "Bird on the wire"

Then consider why we use cpcs and install bonding conductors to create a equipotential zone, what the fruits of having that zone means for our safety

Yes I'm sure there is a reason - I'm just asking (in layman's terms) what the reason is for leaving it exposed, and why it can't ever become live, if there is a fault in another connected appliance which leads to live travelling to ground, via that terminal. And for arguments sake there is no RCD/faulty RCD.

 

[Amp David]

What?

 

[buzzlightyear]

It's an electricians forum - seems like the right place to focus on what is right and wrong with electrical installations, not society as a whole..

It's been almost 4 years since the council updated all the electrics in the house"

I can see by the pics that was put on here .
if the op does not like it he can only ring the council and complain to them and see what they say.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Thanks but I'm still confused about this. I totally understand that having it visible/accessible means it's safe as far as inspection goes... And I understand that a bodge job to hide it could damage earth continuity and leave a greater potential danger.

But surely it is designed to carry current in certain situations, so it's not safe to be exposed. How can it be?

Why can't it just be mounted in the CU as in fairly typical these days. Surely that is safe in both regards?

It's an exposed conductive part...The shock protection is provided by automatic disconnection of supply (ADS).

ADS is the most commonly used protective measure and applies to most electrical installations.

Connecting together accessible metalwork of an electrical installation, that is, the exposed conductive parts and extraneous conductive parts which are bonded as part of the protective measure ADS, reduces the touch voltage in earth fault conditions.

 

[Jay89]

Yes I mentioned the RCD earlier, I agree it's not likely to ever become dangerous because it must now have an RCD. But RCD's are not 100% reliable, even if recently tested. It just seems crazy to leave the final part of the earth network of the entire house exposed like that. What is the point?

Depending on the earthing arrangement the final part (in the house) will either be the sheathing of the incoming cable or the neutral terminal inside the main head. I can’t say I’ve seen a domestic installation where the MET is completely enclosed.

As long as everything remains connected I can’t see that there is any danger

 

[Deuce]

It's an exposed conductive part...The shock protection is provided by automatic disconnection of supply (ADS).

ADS is the most commonly used protective measure and applies to most electrical installations.

Connecting together accessible metalwork of an electrical installation, that is, the exposed conductive parts and extraneous conductive parts which are bonded as part of ADS, reduces the touch voltage in earth fault conditions.

Thanks that all makes sense. But in an earth fault condition, that would still become live - and would be the last connected conductive part before ground. Does that not make it potentially more dangerous to be in contact with?

Edit I appreciate that no matter what most current will still want to travel to ground, not through anyone touching it - but there is still some low level risk of making contact isn't there?

 

[buzzlightyear]

the possibly the c /u has been moved to a new position .that why the
met is in that position to other services .

 

[Leesparkykent]

Thanks that all makes sense. But in an earth fault condition, that would still become live - and would be the last connected conductive part before ground. Does that not make it potentially more dangerous to be in contact with?

Everything should rise at the same potential or there abouts. Obviously factors like length/resistance of bonding conductors etc can have an influence. The situation you've put forward is no different to touching an exposed conductive part and an extraneous conductive part at the same time whilst an earth fault is occurring. This is why Zs values, bonding, earthing etc is adheared to as part of the protective measure ADS.

 

[Deuce]

Everything should rise at the same potential or there abouts. Obviously factors like length/resistance of bonding conductors etc can have an influence. The situation you've put forward is no different to touching an exposed conductive part and an extraneous conductive part at the same time whilst an earth fault is occurring. This is why Zs values, bonding, earthing etc is adheared to as part of the protective measure ADS.

Thanks. Not being a spark myself I have only a limited grasp on how potential works. So in basic terms, yes the entire earth network is 'live' in an earth fault scenario, but anyone touching any part of it has such a tiny potential compared to ground, that they will receive a super low voltage and probably not even notice? And a bird sat on a wire has zero potential so they get no voltage at all.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Thanks. Not being a spark myself I have only a limited grasp on how potential works. So in basic terms, yes the entire earth network is 'live' in an earth fault scenario, but anyone touching any part of it has such a tiny potential compared to ground, that they will receive a super low voltage and probably not even notice? And a bird sat on a wire has zero potential so they get no voltage at all.

If you had an Earth fault and the installation Earth was disconnected, then there could be a problem.

 

[westward10]

It does not matter it is exposed and looks worse than it probably is, just requires a notice stating "Safety Electrical Connection - Do Not Remove".

 

[Sw33tnuff]

As westward10 says requires durable labeling stating "Safety Electrical Connection DO NOT REMOVE."

 

[Wilko]

I will never be ok with unsupported tails like this - poor workmanship and bad news if they get pulled out ...

 

[KEV 1 N]

Yes that's an earth terminal. It's normal to have such a terminal, but not normal for the terminal to be exposed. The earth circuit should be treated and protected as if it were live, as that's literally what it's there for. If there is a fault, to carry the live current back to the earth... So if you get a fault, that becomes live and it's exposed...

I'm not a qualified spark but I'd avoid fiddling with/licking the terminal.

This is an earthing arrangement in a larger building. Perfectly safe and normal to have it exposed

 

[Squid]

Phone the council up and have a moan to them and ask them to inspect the work, also take a day off work for the inspection.

 

[Dave OCD]

The OP came on here for advice and reassurance, fair enough as dodgy electrics can be lethal . I don't understand how one or two here seem to be looking down their noses due to the property being a Council House. We all know that it's become more and more difficult to own your home in recent years and I hate this snobbish attitude.

 

[PEG]

Hi bud,just out of interest,what part of the property is the MET in?

Are you planning to install anything in this area?

 

[HandySparks]

...It just seems crazy to leave the final part of the earth network of the entire house exposed like that. What is the point?

The point is that there is no special danger to the MET. It is likely to be connected to gas and water pipework, along with any metal taps, baths, sinks, boilers, etc. If the consumer unit is metal, it'll be connected to that too.

So there's no additional safety to be gained by covering this particular item of earthed metalwork.

 

[RyanA]

Hi everyone, thanks for reassuring me about this, all happy now. PEG the fuse box and installation is in a small room off to the side with no real use. We just put some dry storage in there and not planning to put anything else.

Have a great new year!

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

The OP came on here for advice and reassurance, fair enough as dodgy electrics can be lethal . I don't understand how one or two here seem to be looking down their noses due to the property being a Council House. We all know that it's become more and more difficult to own your home in recent years and I hate this snobbish attitude.

I see your point, I personally think i would rather live in the old social / council housing around here than some of the modern fancy ones. they were built well in 50s and 60s and had a decent clerk of works from council sign them off before anybody could move in, they have far fewer issues than a lot of the newer homes. But people are too up themselves to see the benefits of buying one, bigger rooms and more affordable as less maintenance. its all about keeping up with the jones's

 

[Dave OCD]

Spot on mate, I remember wiring some new council homes around 30 years ago and the Clerk of Works would check the socket heights with a steel rule and measure the centre of each room to check the lights were spot on, he couldn't beat me though.

 

[DPG]

I think its a good thing the OP has asked the question. Most people wouldn't even think about it, and would probably hang their feather dusters and wellies from the cables. Nothing wrong with your question at all - just remember as has been said above by Lee and others, it's the equipotential bonding that is the key.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Spot on mate, I remember wiring some new council homes around 30 years ago and the Clerk of Works would check the socket heights with a steel rule and measure the centre of each room to check the lights were spot on, he couldn't beat me though.

Hi Dave, ever come across one Jim Dymock in your travels?

GB

 

[David M]

Thanks that all makes sense. But in an earth fault condition, that would still become live - and would be the last connected conductive part before ground. Does that not make it potentially more dangerous to be in contact with?

Edit I appreciate that no matter what most current will still want to travel to ground, not through anyone touching it - but there is still some low level risk of making contact isn't there?

Ok, Lee has already explained this but since you are not a qualified spark I will briefly explain it to you in basic lay mans terms.

Its all about potential. basically what this means is that current will flow down the path of least resistance, the better the conductor the better the current will flow. So in a fault condition to prevent shock, if someone was unfortunate enough to come into contact with an exposed conductive part, we want to divert as much current from passing through that person as possible. The amount of current passing through the person depends (basically) on what the voltage is and what the resistance is between the person and earth and the "live" part. Hence why birds can sit on high powered supply lines and not get harmed, the resistance to earth is so high (because they are not in contact with the earth) so the current cannot flow.
Now basically what the earthing and bonding do in an electrical installation is to make all exposed & extraneous conductive parts at an equal potential and the path to earth as least resistive as possible (there is a bit more to it than that but we won't go into the details). So even during a direct fault where the current flowing through the earth conductor is high, directly touching it (depending on a few factors) will not give you a harmful shock because the current will mainly flow through the path of least resistance (the earth conductor).
In addition there are protection devices - fuses, mcbs, rcd... in place so that if this fault was to arise then the supply would be cut very quickly so the high fault current would only pass through the conductor for a very brief moment.

All this is basically what Lee mentioned and is commonly termed as - ADS.

Hope this explains it for you.

 

[David M]

Thanks that all makes sense. But in an earth fault condition, that would still become live - and would be the last connected conductive part before ground. Does that not make it potentially more dangerous to be in contact with?

Edit I appreciate that no matter what most current will still want to travel to ground, not through anyone touching it - but there is still some low level risk of making contact isn't there?

Ok, Lee has already explained this but since you are not a qualified spark I will briefly explain it to you in basic lay mans terms.

Its all about potential.
Basically what this means is that current will flow down the path of least resistance, the better the conductor the better the current will flow. So in a fault condition to prevent shock, if someone was unfortunate enough to come into contact with an exposed conductive part, we want to divert as much current from passing through that person as possible. The amount of current passing through the person depends (basically) on what the voltage is and what the resistance is between the live part, person and earth. Hence why birds can sit on high powered supply lines and not get harmed, the resistance to earth is so high (because they are not in contact with the earth) the current cannot easily flow.
Now basically what the earthing and bonding do in an electrical installation is to make all exposed & extraneous conductive parts at an equal potential and the path to earth as least resistive as possible (there is a bit more to it than that but we won't go into the details). So even during a direct fault where the current flowing through the earth conductor is high, directly touching it (depending on a few factors) will not give you a harmful shock because the current will mainly flow through the path of least resistance (the earth conductor).
In addition there are protection devices - fuses, mcbs, rcds... in place so that if a fault was to arise they are designed to cut the supply very quickly so the fault current would only pass through the earth conductor for a very brief moment. In other words its extremely unlikely that anyone would be in contact with the earth conductor, or in the case of the OP connection point, plus creating a lower resistance to earth, for the brief moment a fault current was being conducted.

All this is basically what Lee mentioned and is commonly termed as - ADS.

And for you trainees out there - all this is why it is very important that during your installs and testing that you ensure that all the earthing & bonding is present and correct. It is the most important thing to consider for an electrical installation!

Hope this explains it for you.

 

[Pete E]

why are people complaining about the state of the electrics when people living ruff on the streets .bugs me

Really? So you can do work "as rough as" and if a customer complains, you just tell them your lucky not to be living on the streets?

Step daughter moved into a council property and it was terrible the state she was expected to live in..They had supposedly carried out renovation and the work was supposedly inspected, but the guy must have been blind..Luckily myself and her father were able to make things decent and advise her what she need to chase the council about re sub standard work on the electrics plumbing plus safety issues re the garden fencing...