What S.I. under risk assessement for omission of RCD in regs

[The Ghost]

Ok so as I am moving VERY soon I have packed and sealed all my electrical books away. I don't have access to regs consequently. I am racking my brains regards risk assessment for omission of RCD on sockets. If you read the fine print it references a statutory instrument regards the standard this risk assessment must be made to. In my memory it is S.I. 19 HSA available at the HSE site. Can anyone have a look under 433(I think) and tell me what that S.I. is? I need to advise a customer and better get it right.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - in the 17th Reg 411.3.3 refers. It's Note 3 takes us to App2 item 10 for risk assessment. Not sure if this is it so hit me again if needed.

 

[Nigel]

It is Reg 411.

17th references ‘SI 1999 No 3242’

18th has removed this reference and instead says risk assessment should involve electrically skilled person.

 

[Pete999]

Statutory Instruments, followed by a number ie SI 341

 

[The Ghost]

Yeh at 10 on the lower picture @Wilko thanks for that and @essex for the info. That is what I was referring to. Thanks again. Can now finish my email to client!

 

[Pete999]

Wonder why I bother when I don't get a thanks,

 

[davesparks]

Wonder why I bother when I don't get a thanks,

Maybe it’s because you’ve put the wrong SI number in your post?

 

[Pete999]

Maybe it’s because you’ve put the wrong SI number in your post?

I added the number as an example Dave, not as a reference, now stop being picky, anyway the post was meant in jest.

 

[westward10]

I am interested Vorts why the omission, new install or something with an existing circuit.

 

[Pete999]

Maybe it’s because you’ve put the wrong SI number in your post?

To be honest, I have just reread the question, my bad I thought that the OP wondered what SI meant, realise he did know, and was just after the number, no excuses, sorry for any confusion.

 

[Strima]

I've recently had a customer and a designer refuse to give me a copy of their risk assessment for omission of RCDs, they expected me to put my name to it.

My comment of 'jog on' in slightly stronger language and my directors pulling the project had the desired impact.

 

[The Ghost]

I am interested Vorts why the omission, new install or something with an existing circuit.

I am/have put a cable in for a comms room on the third floor of a commercial building in a locked cupboard accessible by only competent persons (hrmm. so say!) Anyway I have dropped out of the work because of moving so it's a handover and just advising client I have arranged an RCBO from the LL supply and there is a spare MCB as well. Just a courtesy really for the next guy who finishes it. And thought to advise the client regards RA in leaving out an RCD in this instance. All communications and internet will go through this comms room so it is mission critical and moot as to additional protection. Personally I would put it on an MCB. What say you?

 

[The Ghost]

To be honest, I have just reread the question

Honesty always the best policy, but rather than be rude about your post as some might be I thought more diplomatic to pass over it.

 

[westward10]

I am/have put a cable in for a comms room on the third floor of a commercial building in a locked cupboard accessible by only competent persons (hrmm. so say!) Anyway I have dropped out of the work because of moving so it's a handover and just advising client I have arranged an RCBO from the LL supply and there is a spare MCB as well. Just a courtesy really for the next guy who finishes it. And thought to advise the client regards RA in leaving out an RCD in this instance. All communications and internet will go through this comms room so it is mission critical and moot as to additional protection. Personally I would put it on an MCB. What say you?

It is not likely to be used for general use whilst it is a comms room so I would omit.

 

[The Ghost]

And it certainly wont be used for equipment outside on the second (correction!) floor. Also it will be a commando socket so even less likely to be used by the cleaner who broke into the comms cupboard.

 

[westward10]

I was going to ask if it was 13A or some other, all good in my eyes.

 

[The Ghost]

16a MCB on radial 4mm T&E all calculated for vd etc. Equipment assessed going on the circuit and manufacturers info taken into account.

 

[Pete999]

Honesty always the best policy, but rather than be rude about your post as some might be I thought more diplomatic to pass over it.

Quite right in hindsight Mate, thanks for the explanation.

 

[The Ghost]

16a MCB on radial 4mm T&E

With 13a spur ofc.

 

[westward10]

I think there was some genuine misreading of the opening post so some later posts have been deleted. I think this has been resolved so can we refrain from unnecessary posts between each other.

 

[Strima]

I would be happy to omit RCD protection in this instance as the socket is in a locked area and is for a specific piece of equipment (Caveat: dependant upon installation method):

411.3.3 Additional Protection

In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with Regulation 415.1 shall be provided for.

(i) Socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20 A, and
(ii) Mobile equipment with a current rating not exceeding 32 for use outdoors.

And exception to (i) is permitted:

(a) Where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that the RCD protection is not necessary, or
(b) For a specific labelled or otherwise suitably identified socket-outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment.

Not often I say this, but bung a label on it.

 

[TJ Anderson]

I would be happy to omit RCD protection in this instance as the socket is in a locked area and is for a specific piece of equipment (Caveat: dependant upon installation method):

411.3.3 Additional Protection

In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with Regulation 415.1 shall be provided for.

(i) Socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20 A, and
(ii) Mobile equipment with a current rating not exceeding 32 for use outdoors.

And exception to (i) is permitted:

(a) Where, other than for an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that the RCD protection is not necessary, or
(b) For a specific labelled or otherwise suitably identified socket-outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment.

Not often I say this, but bung a label on it.

Fine under the 17th, just label socket. Designed from January.....not so easy. They have removed this " get out" and will require documented risk assesment to omit.

 

[Strima]

Fine under the 17th, just label socket. Designed from January.....not so easy. They have removed this " get out" and will require documented risk assesment to omit.

Design it to the 17th then...

TBH this change is going to give me headaches as I do a lot of telecoms work which have blue light services attached. We don't want them RCD protected as live may be put at risk if the supply drops. These are in secure server rooms but at the moment customers are reluctant to carry out a risk assessment.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Design it to the 17th then...

TBH this change is going to give me headaches as I do a lot of telecoms work which have blue light services attached. We don't want them RCD protected as live may be put at risk if the supply drops. These are in secure server rooms but at the moment customers are reluctant to carry out a risk assessment.

Agree, design to 17th for now. It's gonna be a problem for a lot of people come January. Commercial Fridges particularly

 

[Nigel]

A risk assessment can be done quite easily.

Control measures could be things like:

‘only RCD plugs to be used on this socket.’

‘All equipment to have been visually checked prior to use and PAT tested within 3 months’

‘Class 2 equipment only’

Very easy to risk assess out an RCD if the environment is right.

 

[westward10]

Would Class II equipment carry any weight, there is still a shock risk with such an appliance.

 

[Nigel]

Would Class II equipment carry any weight, there is still a shock risk with such an appliance.

It would be down to whomever completed the risk assessment to decide. Everything has an element of risk. Risk assessments are an attempt to take significant risks and put in reasonable control measures. They are not about taking all risks and eliminating them.

 

[Nigel]

Design it to the 17th then...

TBH this change is going to give me headaches as I do a lot of telecoms work which have blue light services attached. We don't want them RCD protected as live may be put at risk if the supply drops. These are in secure server rooms but at the moment customers are reluctant to carry out a risk assessment.

Risk assessments need to be done by electrically competent persons. Whomever does the design should incorporate this into their Designers Risk Assessment.

 

[TJ Anderson]

A risk assessment can be done quite easily.

Control measures could be things like:

‘only RCD plugs to be used on this socket.’

‘All equipment to have been visually checked prior to use and PAT tested within 3 months’

‘Class 2 equipment only’

Very easy to risk assess out an RCD if the environment is right.

The thing is though, this risk assesment will be ongoing for the life of that <30A socket with 30ma RCD protection omitted.
The IET are clearly taking the onus off them and putting onto the installer. Who deems those control measures are suitable for the life of that socket that is now outside of BS7671 regulations? IET don't even want to give guidance on control measures..

It's a different scenario having RAMS for a job which is completed in a timeframe and then is finished and RAMS for an installation that could still have implications way down the line....

 

[TJ Anderson]

I think it's the most affecting change in the 18th for commercial and industrial

 

[Nigel]

The thing is though, this risk assesment will be ongoing for the life of that <30A socket with 30ma RCD protection omitted.
The IET are clearly taking the onus off them and putting onto the installer. Who deems those control measures are suitable for the life of that socket that is now outside of BS7671 regulations? IET don't even want to give guidance on control measures..

It's a different scenario having RAMS for a job which is completed in a timeframe and then is finished and RAMS for an installation that could still have implications way down the line....

I disagree. It is only up to the designer to complete a design based on the knowledge they have at the time. If the risk changes then it is up to the person in charge of the installation to make sure changes are done properly. Also if come the next inspections things have changed this should be picked up by the engineer testing.

 

[TJ Anderson]

I disagree. It is only up to the designer to complete a design based on the knowledge they have at the time. If the risk changes then it is up to the person in charge of the installation to make sure changes are done properly. Also if come the next inspections things have changed this should be picked up by the engineer testing.

I disagree. It is only up to the designer to complete a design based on the knowledge they have at the time. If the risk changes then it is up to the person in charge of the installation to make sure changes are done properly. Also if come the next inspections things have changed this should be picked up by the engineer testing.

Good points and I think there is gonna be a lot of discussion about this..

Hypothetically....if you had one of these, would you append ommission risk assesment to EIC or actually make it part of it on a continuation sheet?

 

[Nigel]

Good points and I think there is gonna be a lot of discussion about this..

Hypothetically....if you had one of these, would you append ommission risk assesment to EIC or actually make it part of it on a continuation sheet?

I would probably do it as a seperate document and reference it in the EIC.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The RA should be appended to the EIC.
Other options are to hard wire, or use a 64A plug and socket.

 

[The Ghost]

The software I use has a section for RA for omission of RCD in the EIC. @spinlondon why a 64A socket? Single phase 16A radial by the way this circuit is. I presume no chance of accidentally plugging in something you should not???

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The current requirement is for sockets rated up to 20A to be provided with RCD protection.
Therefore if a socket rated above 20A is used, there is no requirement for RCD protection.
The 18th edition requirement will be for socket-outlets rated up to 32A.

 

[Risteard]

Never seen a 64A socket...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Never seen a 64A socket...

2CMA167905R1000 | ABB Horizontal Switchable IP67 Interlocked Socket 3P+E, 64A, 346 → 415 V | RS Components - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/industrial-interlocks/8305293/
There you go.

 

[Risteard]

2CMA167905R1000 | ABB Horizontal Switchable IP67 Interlocked Socket 3P+E, 64A, 346 → 415 V | RS Components - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/industrial-interlocks/8305293/
There you go.

That's obviously a typographical error. The correct rating will be 63A.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That's obviously a typographical error. The correct rating will be 63A.

Ahh, typos, guess anyone can make them.