Working on live distribution boards?

[netblindpaul]

hi all
a bit late into this post but here goes ,you are not allowed to work live on a any panel , db , or any other board unless suitable training and appropriate clothing ( face guard , 1000v gloves , basically a rubber suit, e,on clothing for sub stations . if you were killed your insurance would be invalid as it would be deemed as careless on your behalf ,and your employer jailed .hope it helps regards jason .

Not quite, too much inaccuracies in your statements.

What is "e,on clothing" {sic}?

 

[D Skelton]

Not quite, too much inaccuracies in your statements.

What is "e,on clothing" {sic}?

Anyone carrying out live work has to have the letter 'e' stamped all over their clothing obviously!

 

[Guest111]

OK as a twist I'll throw in an incident fron just before christmas,we needed a new service head,the old black Lucy one was damaged.So out comes a young lad from the networks,he was a nice chap and we got talking and I asked him about live working,this is where it gets interesting.To replace the head you remove the cover,then the plastic shroud from inside the fuse carrier,slacken 4 screws,2 on the live block and 2 on the neutral,remove 2 fixing screws and slide unit upwards.You are now left with the phase and neutral conductors spaced approx 2inches apart,slide new unit on tighten screws secure to board and replace cover,job done.Nice easy,dry and well lit,the job takes about 10 minutes.However this is not the correct way as it is classed as working live,the correct way is to excavate the cable,strip back and cut it,bearing in mind it's live! then replace the head then rejoin the cable in the hole possibly in the wet,possibly in poor light and from experience in a small hole bent over.I could not believe it when he told me this,I know which option I'd prefer and which I think is safest.Needless to say he did it the way I'd have done,as he said common sense needs to be applied,had it been a pitch filled cast iron head then there would have been a different outcome.

 

[netblindpaul]

OK as a twist I'll throw in an incident fron just before christmas,we needed a new service head,the old black Lucy one was damaged.So out comes a young lad from the networks,he was a nice chap and we got talking and I asked him about live working,this is where it gets interesting.To replace the head you remove the cover,then the plastic shroud from inside the fuse carrier,slacken 4 screws,2 on the live block and 2 on the neutral,remove 2 fixing screws and slide unit upwards.You are now left with the phase and neutral conductors spaced approx 2inches apart,slide new unit on tighten screws secure to board and replace cover,job done.Nice easy,dry and well lit,the job takes about 10 minutes.However this is not the correct way as it is classed as working live,the correct way is to excavate the cable,strip back and cut it,bearing in mind it's live! then replace the head then rejoin the cable in the hole possibly in the wet,possibly in poor light and from experience in a small hole bent over.I could not believe it when he told me this,I know which option I'd prefer and which I think is safest.Needless to say he did it the way I'd have done,as he said common sense needs to be applied,had it been a pitch filled cast iron head then there would have been a different outcome.

Not specifically you phil d, but it needs to be understood that the DNO's are considered competent for live working.
However, round here (WPD), you would NEVER get a lone worker doing a cut out change, safe, new, damaged or not.
It would just not be done, a cut out change is a 2 man job, end of.
I've had a few done now and it always is, and they tell me always will be, and they consider it safer than a live cut & splice in the road.
The only time a live cut & splice is done is to remove a BS951 clamp from a lead sheath for works of this kind.
Again as far as I have been told.

 

[Guest111]

Not specifically you phil d, but it needs to be understood that the DNO's are considered competent for live working.
However, round here (WPD), you would NEVER get a lone worker doing a cut out change, safe, new, damaged or not.
It would just not be done, a cut out change is a 2 man job, end of.
I've had a few done now and it always is, and they tell me always will be, and they consider it safer than a live cut & splice in the road.
The only time a live cut & splice is done is to remove a BS951 clamp from a lead sheath for works of this kind.
Again as far as I have been told.

That's what I thought,to me doing a splice live is more dangerous than changing a head live but that's what the man said their policy was,he was sent out as it was deemed dangerous and it was 7.30 at night,so he said he could do it without the splice as it had been classed as urgent.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Working live for me is a judgement call, if I don't like it, I work out of hours or an agreed "tool change" or whatever, TBH live working is the smaller risks I encounter in a typical day, got caught on the ear today by a slotting disk that let go, it really hurt and drew blood, worse than any belt I have had. As for working at height well, that just another level all together, surprised there is not more talk about what angle is safe when working at 4M up a ladder.

 

[jaythegooner]

hi all
a bit late into this post but here goes ,you are not allowed to work live on any panel , db , or any other board unless suitable training and appropriate clothing ( face guard , 1000v gloves , basically a rubber suit, e,on clothing for sub stations . if you were killed your insurance would be invalid as it would be deemed as careless on your behalf ,and your employer jailed .hope it helps regards jason .

( sorry folks ,eon supply authority clothing .)

 

[Knobhead]

Not specifically you phil d, but it needs to be understood that the DNO's are considered competent for live working.
However, round here (WPD), you would NEVER get a lone worker doing a cut out change, safe, new, damaged or not.
It would just not be done, a cut out change is a 2 man job, end of.
I've had a few done now and it always is, and they tell me always will be, and they consider it safer than a live cut & splice in the road.
The only time a live cut & splice is done is to remove a BS951 clamp from a lead sheath for works of this kind.
Again as far as I have been told.

Rethink that one Paul. To replace a breach they don’t break the joint down. They simply extend the existing breach or pot end the existing live branch and then make a new breach.

Its fun doing it live, makes you think what you are doing. Work on one conductor only with the others shrouded. Last one I did was at 550V, 70mm² PVC to a 0.3”² SWAPILC my body was live in relation to earth at 318V. The connections were sweated, you can’t insulate the metal ladles.

Paper leads are more resilient than you lot think. A BS951 isn’t going to damage the lead sheath or the underlying paper insulation. Get hold of a piece of PILC and strip it, you will see what I mean. The insulation layers of papers overlap, a waxed jute infill takes up any voids. They are then overlapped with waxed belting papers. Then the lead sleeve is applied, molten lead tends to be a bit hot. It doesn’t even mark the belting papers.

No I don’t recommend fitting BS951 clamps simply as the copper inside the lead expands and contracts. The lead then expands but doesn’t contract at the same rate (lead is very plastic) so the clamp will slacken.

I would happily sweat a new bond on to a live PILC cable. I do it with a single wipe on one side of the cable. I'm not going in to how it's done. Its not a secret, but it's a trick that us older ones know.

 

[Engineer54]

Tony, E54, I DO understand where you are coming from.
However, there has been a sea change in attitude.
Think drink driving, 60 years ago it was almost acceptable.
Now?
Well live working now has the same stigma.
Do I, I'll claim the American 5th Amendment I think it is known as.
Live testing is OK.
Live working does have to be risk assessed, and financial requirements are at the bottom of the list.
End of.
I had a guy on a course I was teaching last year that was in a room working on a mains intake.
All isolated, all safe, then an arc flash occurred, the guy working in the panel was engulfed in flames, his hi-vis caught fire on his back and set his clothes alight, he was "medivacced" out by air ambulance.
Why, the "other" side of the panel was live, there was swarf that had crossed the containment between compartments.
The guys working on the panels were oblivious to the danger.
They were not working live.
A tool breached the barrier, which in conjunction with the swarf caused an arc flash.

The guy just about got way with his life, as the flash occurred in a confined space.


What WAS acceptable, is no longer.
E54, I KNOW the company you worked for, and it is not acceptable there now either.


However, I do agree that the standard of training now is abysmal, IMHO, and there is nothing I can do about it even when I am called upon to deliver the odd course, I try, but 4 days is just not enough.

I am stating what was the norm when i was working in the industrial sector and specifically within the company i worked for. I can also factually tell you, that live working was still being undertaken upto at least just 4 years ago, in one of the last operational plants on the site that i once worked within. I don't know what they do or don't do at the Swansea plant these days however.

What i will expand on here, is the safety equipment/tools that the company made available to us when conducting live working. All our tools were ''Fully'' insulated that included pliers and side cutter heads (never seen the like of which since), all spanners, socket sets, hammers, even hacksaw frames and blade (sprung guard) Full face shields, gloves (suitable for the voltage being worked on) even full suits when deemed necessary. The full insulated tool set (and it was a fully comprehensive set ) was said to have cost £4 to £5000 and were talking now about the 70's...
So impossible to drop a tool anywhere, that would breach, or come into contact with anything that would cause a catastrophic breakdown/flash over.

I can't honestly say what is or isn't acceptable now in the UK, because i just don't know. I still find it hard to believe that live working isn't still being carried out on industrial line processes etc as and when deemed necessary....

 

[D Skelton]

I still find it hard to believe that live working isn't still being carried out on industrial line processes etc as and when deemed necessary....

It is! lol. But no one is running around shouting about it coz of the 'elf and safety brigade!

 

[High Tower]

First of all congratulations and respect to you all for having a intelligent debate without any knickers getting in a twist!!, and both sides have aired their views well!.

Live working...... Forget the H&S, it's all about being capable for the task in hand. Have I put circuits into DB's both single and three phase live??, yes I have , have I drilled a C50 board live, yep done that, also breaker changes nd stripping cables out.

Would I attempt to go near Tonys board live?... Not a chance, I wouldn't fiddle with it dead, it's all about knowing your limitations and not getting yourself in to deep, last one I did controlled all of the fire shutters in a shopping centre, if I had shut the power down, the shopping centre would go into lock out with shutters everywhere

 

[Engineer54]

It is! lol. But no one is running around shouting about it coz of the 'elf and safety brigade!

Or telling the Engineering manager to f*** off if he needed you to work live!! lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

This is getting us nowhere.

We’re simply generations apart.

Like E54, I had real on the job training, not just a classroom/training booth. The dangers of and precautions for live working drummed in to us.

 

[Knobhead]

 

[D Skelton]

This is getting us nowhere.

We’re simply generations apart.

Like E54, I had real on the job training, not just a classroom/training booth. The dangers of and precautions for live working drummed in to us.

You say that as if someone who has never worked live hasn't had real on the job training??

Times change mate. I bet you'll find hard statistical evidence to show that the rate of deaths from working live has dropped dramatically from your day to now!

Life has a higher value now too. You only have to look at the rate of deaths in the coal mining industry 40 years ago and compare it to today to see this!

As much as we loath them sometimes, I reckon the 'elf 'n safety brigade have done more good than harm.

 

[Engineer54]

This is getting us nowhere.

We're simply generations apart.

Like E54, I had real on the job training, not just a classroom/training booth. The dangers of and precautions for live working drummed in to us.

Couldn't have put it better myself!! lol!!

And it's all actually true, we as 3rd year apprentices were shown/taught how to safely conduct ourselves with live working. As i say, it was then simply part and parcel of being an industrial electrician working in a production sector of our industry!!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Couldn't have put it better myself!! lol!!

And it's all actually true, we as 3rd year apprentices were shown/taught how to safely conduct ourselves with live working. As i say, it was then simply part and parcel of being an industrial electrician working in a production sector of our industry!!

Aye ..... and we were allowed to play conkers in the school yard an' all !!

 

[Engineer54]

You say that as if someone who has never worked live hasn't had real on the job training??

Times change mate. I bet you'll find hard statistical evidence to show that the rate of deaths from working live has dropped dramatically from your day to now!

Life has a higher value now too. You only have to look at the rate of deaths in the coal mining industry 40 years ago and compare it to today to see this!

As much as we loath them sometimes, I reckon the 'elf 'n safety brigade have done more good than harm.

I don't think he said that at all, what he is saying is that the training gained in our era was by far, more comprehensive than what is the norm found today....

Don't think you can compare coal mining death rates of 40 years ago with today, all the coal mines have been nigh on closed for years now, so can't help having much lower figures.

Hmm, i don't think manufacturing companies will agree with you too much on that one. Those buggers are one of the main reasons why UK goods are so uncompetitive on the home and world markets... And why much of the UK manufacturing industries have buggered off overseas lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

You say that as if someone who has never worked live hasn't had real on the job training??

Times change mate. I bet you'll find hard statistical evidence to show that the rate of deaths from working live has dropped dramatically from your day to now!

Life has a higher value now too. You only have to look at the rate of deaths in the coal mining industry 40 years ago and compare it to today to see this!

As much as we loath them sometimes, I reckon the 'elf 'n safety brigade have done more good than harm.

Before you start on that look at the production methods. It had sod all to do with safety, productivity drove the improvements.

Made things better? We can’t compete internationally being hamstrung by jobsworths.

 

[D Skelton]

I don't think he said that at all, what he is saying is that the training gained in our era was by far, more comprehensive than what is the norm found today....

I know what he's saying really, but it might sound to others like a blanket statement along the lines of "I was trained well, all you lot today though have had crap training".

Don't think you can compare coal mining death rates of 40 years ago with today, all the coal mines have been nigh on closed for years now, so can't help having much lower figures.

Per head of course you can.

Hmm, i don't think manufacturing companies will agree with you too much on that one. Those buggers are one of the main reasons why UK goods are so uncompetitive on the home and world markets...

Hmm, I can see your point, but I'd say that there are other much bigger factors at play when it comes to our products being uncompetitive! But then we delve into the deep dark world of politics on a forum with our comfy keypads and screens separating us from each other and quite often separating us from reality itself!

Before you start on that look at the production methods. It had sod all to do with safety, productivity drove the improvements.

Errr, safety lamps? lol (ok I know that was more than 40 years ago, but you get my drift )