Worldwide ring mains

[KevinS]

Quick question here, does anyone know if any other countries use ring mains
reason I ask, I have made a proto-type socket where you can do your continuity checks and r1+r2 tests WITHOUT taking the socket off.
i don't know how much more money and time to spend on this idea

 

[somersetsparks]

There was a post on this a while back, Not that many I don't think, mainly limited to (former) British colonies. Engineer54 could help with this.

 

[SKY]

What is special about this device then that you have designed?
Not being funny - just interested

 

[derek preece]

According to wiki, the UAE, Singapore and Indonesia use ring final circuits.

 

[Liam12]

Sort of like a breakout box ??

 

[KevinS]

Look like an ordinary socket from the front
without giving too many details (as I'm uncertain as yet about going through the costs of patenting the idea)
when you do your circuit impedances at a socket it is possible that one of your wires may come out when you are putting the socket back and therefore the circuit is in a worse condition than before you started.
With my "device" all measurements (and future measurements) will be done with the socket cover in place. No removing sockets, no disconnecting wires, no joining your lives and cpc's together to get get your r1+r2, no putting it all back together

 

[Guitarist]

With my "device" all measurements (and future measurements) will be done with the socket cover in place. No removing sockets, no disconnecting wires, no joining your lives and cpc's together to get get your r1+r2, no putting it all back together

....also no checking terminations are tight?

 

[electric will]

What's wrong with the plug in socket mate and plug your meter into that, ok we still have to link l and cpc, set up figure of 8 testing on rings but I don't see this way as a problem.

 

[alarm man]

is it a plug with a bit of flex on,speak to page 4 he has loads of devices like that,

 

[KevinS]

You would know that your terminations are tight by your readings, because as I said the readings are taken once the socket face is a place

 

[electric will]

Kewcheck R2 Socket Adaptor - R2 - Test Without Removing Wall Socket

I just use one of these, no taking face plates off

 

[electric will]

Look like an ordinary socket from the front
without giving too many details (as I'm uncertain as yet about going through the costs of patenting the idea)

Sounds like the idea is you fit this "different" type of socket to all the outlets and leave it installed? Maybe it has some test holes in it or something?

 

[KevinS]

A plug in socket doesn't tell you what the impedance of you live, neutral and cpc are, you need to BREAK the ring to get these, and has one of the conductors never "popped out" as you are putting the socket back. How many have come out and you have not noticed, therefore the ring is no longer a ring. With my 'device' as the readings are taken place after you fit the socket front, you would know if one of your wires came out as you would have an open circuit and know immediately
ps no disrespect to your or anyone elses workmanship but it can very easily happen

 

[Guest55]

According to wiki, the UAE, Singapore and Indonesia use ring final circuits.

so the other 202 nations on earth are exculsively using radials lol.

 

[Guitarist]

You would know that your terminations are tight by your readings, because as I said the readings are taken once the socket face is a place

So this is simply for testing after you have replaced a socket, to ensure that nothing has "popped off"?
I realise that good readings will indicate that there is decent contact, but nothing really beats checking an old installation with a visual and a tweak of the screws. Maybe I'm just old fashioned

 

[KevinS]

Biff, that's why I don't think it's worth spending more time and money on it.
I can also see rings coming to an end here in the uk.

 

[electric will]

Kevin I agree with the cables coming out as the terminals are tightened, (i use Crabtree and these seem to push the conductor out as I tighten them but that's another topic) but when testing why would you be disconnecting conductors at the socket? You only need to disconnect at the db

 

[alarm man]

rings coming to an end,why?

 

[KevinS]

Guitarist,
my initial thoughts were:-
the socket would be fitted during the initial wiring, after the job was complete you could take your readings, but the main reason was, any periodics that needed doing the circuit would not needed to be disconnected/taken apart
i was more thinking along the lines of student accommodation etc where a periodic would be done more often.
but what would the harm be fitting one to every circuit (ring)

 

[Guest55]

rings coming to an end,why?

harmonisation with european standards

if we were prepared to change the whole countries wiring colours to keep brussels happy then phasing out rings will be a piece of cake in comparison.
lets see what happens when the 18th regs comes around.

 

[sparks1973]

well i dont know about world wide ring circuits....but theres this:

World Wide Tools

available in pound shops up and down the country...

 

[electric will]

Kevin, I have a rough idea of what your thinking of, instead of a socket you'd be better to have the same stuff in it but install it on the ring near the consumer unit, how ever I think your trying to solve a problem that don't really exist.

 

[ExArmy]

so it's a double socket, with 6 terminations at the back (2 L 2N and 2 CPC) and some way of testing the ring end to end ?

and you have to fit this to every point on the ring before this system works? i'm struggling to comprehend this. whats wrong with end to ends a the board, cross connect fig 8 and measure at each point(no need to remove any fronts anyway)

 

[SKY]

The firm I have done lots of work for are fitting more radials than rings these days.
Seem to find that when designers are involved radials are used more.

 

[KevinS]

There is nothing to stop a wire coming out of the db. (much easier to spot I agree)
I agree the db is the best place to test but some db's are a right rats nest and it's easier to go to a socket.
Surely it must be easier not having to remove/disconnect wires/reconnect/ replace.

 

[Adam]

IMO, this will not be popular.

There are hundreds of different socket designs, and everyone preferences are different. It would be difficult to make the socket suitable for most installations. Perhaps a device near / in DB would be more practical?


With regards to Ring Mains,

I can not see them coming to an end anytime soon with the current prices of copper. It was the high copper prices that made us introduce ring final circuits. I can see radials being the more common option in the future as many modern homes (especially kitchens) have many high current electrical items in use that may put pressure on ring final circuits.

 

[alarm man]

harmonisation with european standards

if we were prepared to change the whole countries wiring colours to keep brussels happy then phasing out rings will be a piece of cake in comparison.
lets see what happens when the 18th regs comes around.

if it aint broke dont fix it,tho some people need to justify they jobs and scams i agree.

 

[KevinS]

Ex army
u only need to fit 1 per ring

Will
you may be totally right, but it's kept me out of mischief!

 

[sparks1973]

why get rid of rings?....both ring and radials have their place.....its choice isn`t it...

 

[KevinS]

Don't think rings will disappear in the very near future, but I think less and less will be installed, that's why I am thinking I am wasting my time and money pushing my idea any further forward

 

[electric will]

A few years ago I had the idea for a invention for car engines, when you first switched on a electric pump would prime the oil ways with oil as a oil brand was claiming most engine wear happens just after first start up while oil pressure is building up. At the time the engine was lasting longer than the body work on cars anyway.

 

[Guitarist]

Guitarist,
my initial thoughts were:-
the socket would be fitted during the initial wiring, after the job was complete you could take your readings, but the main reason was, any periodics that needed doing the circuit would not needed to be disconnected/taken apart
i was more thinking along the lines of student accommodation etc where a periodic would be done more often.
but what would the harm be fitting one to every circuit (ring)

I understand where you are coming from, but a large part of the EICR is the inspection part, including removing switches/sockets to see that there is no sign of heat damage, loose terminals etc. As already said, the sheer number of manufacturers with their various designs and colours would make any change a massive undertaking.
Please don't take my comments as being negative, just trying to get my head around the big picture.

 

[ExArmy]

i've got it, a double socket, 6 terminals on the back, and a fish key that disconnects the ring and puts each leg to the 2 outlets, and you can measure the end to ends from either 3 pin outlet. can't see it taking off

 

[KevinS]

Guitarist,
i didn't read your post as being negative at all, found ALL the posts helpful
i agree with you totally,
i also thought about your comments regarding design etc and the plan was to put it in an unobtrusive place, possibly with tamper screws

Looks like I will have to think of something else to get on dragons den

 

[sparks1973]

I understand where you are coming from, but a large part of the EICR is the inspection part, including removing switches/sockets to see that there is no sign of heat damage, loose terminals etc. As already said, the sheer number of manufacturers with their various designs and colours would make any change a massive undertaking.
Please don't take my comments as being negative, just trying to get my head around the big picture.

hmm....well, loose terminations would show up on your end to end resistances and R1 R2 etc....and as for heat damage....well again may show up on low ohm resistances and IR....but yes. its important to inspect BEFORE testing is carried out...

 

[KevinS]

A few years ago I had the idea for a invention for car engines, when you first switched on a electric pump would prime the oil ways with oil as a oil brand was claiming most engine wear happens just after first start up while oil pressure is building up. At the time the engine was lasting longer than the body work on cars anyway.

When I was very young I went to the joke shop and bought disappearing ink, which disappeared when it dried, my thoughts were "why not put this paint(my dad was painting a ceiling) and you would know where you had painted.
someone beat me to the idea, and probably made money out of MY idea :90:

 

[electric will]

Also, car head lamps with a photo cell in the that picked up lights from another car comming towards you and would auto dip. Trouble is I thought it'd react too late, however think Merc are doing it now

 

[alarm man]

if someone invents a woman who can cook,clean,look after kids and go out to work to earn,i'll buy one,they used to make them a while ago,but obsolete stock now..:sad:

ps.i want the doesnt answer back/moaning version..

 

[Brightspark2]

Good work on thinking up the idea...

I think you should carry on with it...dont be put off...they all said the mobile phone wouldn't work...

Like you say could be quite beneficial in student accommodation...

Sent from my Xperia S using next doors WIFI.

 

[Guitarist]

hmm....well, loose terminations would show up on your end to end resistances and R1 R2 etc....and as for heat damage....well again may show up on low ohm resistances and IR....but yes. its important to inspect BEFORE testing is carried out...

Not all terminations which could do with "tightening" are actually loose, and not all cables showing signs of heat damage will give you poor readings. Just my observations after 26 years in the profession...

 

[alarm man]

Not all terminations which could do with "tightening" are actually loose, and not all cables showing signs of heat damage will give you poor readings. Just my observations after 26 years in the profession...

agree,ive seen cables in terminals thats havent even been screwed down and sat there for years making contact.

 

[electric will]

Going back a few posts, does anyone else find when tightening the terminal screws down on Crabtree it try's to push the conductor out?

 

[ExArmy]

Going back a few posts, does anyone else find when tightening the terminal screws down on Crabtree it try's to push the conductor out?

yeah i've found this, you have to hold the conductors in untill they are nipped, then torque them up. happens with more than just crabtree, i've noticed some fronts have the screws angles inwards to stop this, but it just means it's harder to get your driver in when its tight (under cupboards etc)

 

[electric will]

Glad it's not just me, I know it's not a big problem but you do have to watch it, I think it's the rotating movement of the end of the screw which pushes the conductor out.

 

[somersetsparks]

Glad it's not just me, I know it's not a big problem but you do have to watch it, I think it's the rotating movement of the end of the screw which pushes the conductor out.

Crabtree sockets were good until 3 years ago when the live/neutral terminals were round and at the bottom(however these did have a funny angle on the head of the terminals leading to rounding off quite easily), then went to a really crap design with the square terminals all placed at different heights on the back which didn't last long as they were rubbish. Now they have the square terminals which are pretty shallow and push cables out.
After using all 3 I think the first type were the best. Note: they all look the same from the front and the rockers still go yellow fairly quickly!

 

[Guest55]

i find the friction terminal screw tunnels on new mk gear a real chore tbh.

 

[somersetsparks]

so important he said it 4 times lol ^^^

All corrected now mate, sometimes I can repeat myself after I had a few!

 

[electric will]

I've not seen any of the rockers go yellow though, to be honest. I like the Crabtree stuff.

 

[somersetsparks]

I've not seen any of the rockers go yellow though, to be honest. I like the Crabtree stuff.

I'm looking at some 'yellowed' rockers now in my gaff, might have something to do with me smokes though! I imagine they must be made of different material to the rest of the accessory though, as its only the rockers affected!
I still think its the best of the bunch and seems to be the standard accessory range used by most round our way, decent prices, decent quality, decent standard looks etc.

 

[ruston]

A few years ago I had the idea for a invention for car engines, when you first switched on a electric pump would prime the oil ways with oil as a oil brand was claiming most engine wear happens just after first start up while oil pressure is building up. At the time the engine was lasting longer than the body work on cars anyway.

Lol my Dad did that first , it was called a starting handle , he always cranked it from cold before using the electric starter.