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  1. Les Macaulay
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    Les Macaulay Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Business Name:
    N/a
    Is a joint box below a wooden floor with a fitted carpet classed as accessible or inaccessible?
     
  2. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    There is no doubt about your example INACCESSIBLE
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  3. Les Macaulay
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    Les Macaulay Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Business Name:
    N/a
    Thanks, Murdoch. So this practice of siting joint boxes below wooden floors is not in compliance with the Regs?
     
  4. snowhead
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    snowhead Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Mildlands
    Even if you knew exactly where it was, it still wouldn't be accessible.

    Is it a Maintenance Free joint box or pre-existing screwed?
     
  5. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Why the question?

    For me a socket behind a washing machine is inaccessible ..... But the issue is that BS 7671 does not have a definition for inaccessible ...
     
  6. Les Macaulay
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    Les Macaulay Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Business Name:
    N/a
    I was thinking of a pre-existing screwed type. It was common practice at one time to use Ashley screw down terminal joint boxes sited below floors. Do I take it that this practice does not comply?
     
  7. Les Macaulay
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    Les Macaulay Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Business Name:
    N/a
    The reason I ask is that my next door neighbour has a lighting fault whereby the line to the one-way switch is "dead". The house has fitted carpet. To find the break, it would mean lifting the carpet! This made me think of all the jobs I've done and seen done whereby joint boxes are below a marked hatch in the wooden floor which is subsequently carpeted or covered with composition flooring. An installation that starts off having joints accessible could become inaccessible by the home owner.
     
  8. ferg
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    ferg Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    N.W.Scotland
    In a corner under a hatch.

    No trickier than moving all the carp in a cupboard or attic.

    Under t&g flooring nailgunned down is inaccessible.

    It's one of those ask 10 sparks get 10 different answers questions. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Hi - probably we've all tackled a fault from a long lost jb hidden away somewhere. These days if I must use a jb, it's going to be MF and hopefully they will live up to their name :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  10. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Which then gets carpeted over, with a large unit covering the lot.

    Inaccessible
     
  11. ferg
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    ferg Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    N.W.Scotland
    Are you incapable of moving furniture? Is lifting a carpet beyond you?

    :p:p

    Joking aside it really does depend on where the hatch is.
    Also I don't think pita to get at is the same as inaccessible.

    On a personal note I only ever use MF anyway.
     
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  12. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Liverpool
    If it's under the floor MF only . Hatch's marked floors no difference just MF it ,only tight gets
    think about screw joint boxes
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  13. Les Macaulay
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    Les Macaulay Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Business Name:
    N/a
    OK thanks, guys, MF in all future jobs!
     
  14. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    I don't agree that there isn't doubt. Many would credibly argue that it's accessible and there is no requirement to have a welcome mat over it. Ultimately it's a matter of opinion and these will vary. I would opt for a maintenance-free joint simply to avoid these types of arguments.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    I disagree, as described is inaccessible.

    And the fault for the ambiguity can be laid at the feet of the muppets that write the regs. ......
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Dannyg8810
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    Dannyg8810 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Leeds
    Just use maintenance free were ever its inaccessible/will be awkward to get to
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    yet every day we come across round brown screw terminal boxes that have been there since napoleon , and still as tight as the day they were fitted.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Is this accessible?

    Inaccessible.jpg

    To take this picture I had to put my phone through a downlight hole!

    To gain access would have been carpets and boards up, or part of the ceiling down!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    i'd call that inaccessible crap.
     
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  20. NDG Elecs
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    NDG Elecs Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Tyne and Wear
    Yeah agree there, of the hundreds I have checked as part of other works I have probably had 2-3 that were a bit slack.
     
  21. buzzlightyear
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    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    in my book weather you put a j/b or mf box under floor boards it is accessible at that time .providing you have marked the floor boards and tell the customer .and is down to the customer having going to put carpet down later.
    the muppets make up wright the regs .its like the book of bull s**t the bible.
     
  22. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
     
  23. buzzlightyear
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    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    how many j/b have been put in property's over the years made by Ashley &others
    millions . before m/f came along .
     
  24. ipf
    Offline

    ipf Trusted Advisor

    Yep...and most installed correctly by qualified sparks on top of their job. What's the problem with that?
    We know why this mf box business has all come about...and ,to me, it won't make the slightest difference. Those installing faulty, insecure or underrated screw jb's will just carry on doing it anyway.
    Just last month I found a new boiler supply jointed badly to a rfc with a 20amp 4 pole jb by a heating 'engineer' dipstick.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Rpa07
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    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    Your posts are usually illegible and I normally don't care but rewrite this bit actually trying to make sense - just for me, please. (I'm on the defensive of the Holy word - it's my job)
     
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  26. buzzlightyear
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    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    is it the bible ,book of bull s**t you can not get your head around or the REGS.
     
  27. Rpa07
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    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    Yeh, not helping!
    You could rephrase it - "is it like the Bible, the book so full of wisdom that I haven't been anointed to understand it but with the Great Creators Grace, I may be able to - unlike the BS7671 thAt is, which remains a mystery!"
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  28. buzzlightyear
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    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    both !
     
  29. Rpa07
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    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    Thought so - I love you Buzz (that's also my job!)
     
  30. buzzlightyear
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    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    to each to their own.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  31. Lucien Nunes
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    Lucien Nunes Mercury Arc Rectifier Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    London
    I'm not sure the people who write the regs are really muppets. The regs have flaws, I grant you, and like all standards are incomplete and always will be. But it is a massive challenge to write, in one book, a standard that covers every single situation, device, risk, method and safety feature found in electrical work throughout the country. You could write a whole book just on accessibility for maintenance. They have to deal with conflicting demands from different interested parties - legislators, manufacturers, electricians, architects - and come up with a compromise. Would you rather they left room for manoeuvre or dictated everything? 'Make nice joints' is too vague, 'The box shall be secured to the joist with two 3.5x25 gold-passivated countersunk woodscrews 20 +/-2mm above the plasterboard' is too prescriptive. Somewhere they have to find a balance, and in doing so they get called muppets...

    My version is that if damage to decor or fitments might result or significant making-good is required after access, or it takes much longer to access than to check/correct the fault itself, then it's not accessible. I don't fit carpets, and I don't want to have to call a carpet fitter to refit a valuable carpet properly after I've gone poking around under it for a disconnect. Thankfully I don't touch domestics.

    I also agree that a craftsman can make a sound, permanent, maintenance-free joint with a good quality screw terminal box, but given that either or both parts of that equation might be lacking...
     
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  32. ipf
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    ipf Trusted Advisor


    Well said Lucien. It works both way, though.
    This was a rfc, wired in pyro with neutrals extended, in a Schneider 12 way 3 phase board, following upgrade to rcbo's .
    IMG_0845.JPG


    IMG_0859.JPG
     
    • Like Like x 2
  33. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    I've not seen a Wago melted before (from normal use :rolleyes:). It looks like a 773, which is rated at 24A and should be ok for RFC?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  34. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bucks
    Looking closely it doesn't look like a wago. This one's got curved edges.
     
  35. Des 56
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    Des 56 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Gliese 581C
    Given a choice between a screw or push fit connection,whether the joint was under a floorboard or not,I would not use a push fit connector

    I know nothing of them only through very limited use,however,via the little I have experienced,I have found there is no way I would be content to have a joint I made constructed with those connectors
    If I used a screw connection I would be much more confident of its suitability and its performance
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  36. ipf
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    ipf Trusted Advisor

    I like the lever connectors and have used them. They are especially handy during fault finding...but I can't see them being a more solid connection than a properly fitted brass/copper/brass screw connector.
     
  37. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    yes but 5ww can push a wire in even if they can't tighten a screw properly. all part of the dumbing down. by the 21st edition, monkeys will be able to be electricians.
     
  38. Rpa07
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    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    The industry must be preparing early by the payment of peanuts!
     
  39. ipf
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    ipf Trusted Advisor

    Yep....and robots doing all the fault finding
     
  40. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    nah. that job would need the extra intelligence of the gorillas.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  41. ipf
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    ipf Trusted Advisor

    Yorkies? At least we'll have the chimps on this side of the hills.
     
  42. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
     
  43. coolsparx
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    coolsparx EF Member

    Location:
    Gloucestershire
    Business Name:
    Breeze Electrical Solutions
    They look like the Ideal In-SureĀ® Model 33, www.idealindustries.co.uk/product/12/204/67899/.html which are 32 Amp rated, so one can assume there was a problem with the wire not being fully inserted or something?

    The Ideal 2, 3 & 4 way ones are 32 Amp, which is why I use them, as they can be used for ring main cables.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  44. Leesparkykent
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    Leesparkykent You Rock Gmes Staff Member Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kent
    So can a 20A as generally a ring final circuit is designed around the assumption of a load at 20A at the furthest point of the circuit and the remainder to the rating of the over current protective device evenly distributed around the ring final circuit.
     
  45. coolsparx
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    coolsparx EF Member

    Location:
    Gloucestershire
    Business Name:
    Breeze Electrical Solutions
    Surely if the ring provides power to the kitchen & utility, then someone further down the line does something wrong to break the ring, which is not picked up until the next EICR if they bother to have it done, then those poor little 20 Amp connectors will be the weakest link & will fail before the fuse or circuit breaker disconnects?
     

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