Approved tradesmen scheme

[dunscombe]

Hi, as I’m trying to grow my little business I keep coming across many obstacles namely trying to join a competent trade scheme. NAPIT seem to be the only one that suit my current situation.. has anyone any experience with these people as I’m finding it difficult to say the least! Or can anyone recommend an alternative. I don’t have my testing and inspecting ticket which rules my out of NICEIC!! I need something in place to get my work notified to council

 

[DPG]

I thought all the schemes wanted a testing and inspection qualification these days, but other people will be able to confirm. Have you confirmed with NAPIT what their requirements are?

 

[rewireIT]

Ask napit.

If you need testing and inspection you'll probably only need the initial.

 

[timhoward]

The goal posts seem to keep moving, and you need to talk to Napit who I found very helpful when I was in a similar position.

My understanding is that the current position is that an NVQ level 3 plus 18th Edition will get you able to notify domestic work but not carry out EICRs under the schemes umbrella. Doing 2391-52 on top gets you ability to do EICRs under the scheme's name.

I think the non-negotiable part is now the NVQ 3. Possibly 2391-51 too.

Please do post back as it would be good to clarify the current position.
It's certainly no 'walk in the park' these days.

 

[rewireIT]

The goal posts seem to keep moving, and you need to talk to Napit who I found very helpful when I was in a similar position.

My understanding is that the current position is that an NVQ level 3 plus 18th Edition will get you able to notify domestic work but not carry out EICRs under the schemes umbrella. Doing 2391-52 on top gets you ability to do EICRs under the scheme's name.

I think the non-negotiable part is now the NVQ 3. Possibly 2391-51 too.

Please do post back as it would be good to clarify the current position.
It's certainly no 'walk in the park' these days.

I rang them a while back. It's nvq and am2, which you can't get without your 18th and initial testing. Napit have courses you can go on if you want to be a domestic installer.

 

[DPG]

Makes sense that the schemes want to see 18th edition and test and a inspection course.

 

[dunscombe]

The goal posts seem to keep moving, and you need to talk to Napit who I found very helpful when I was in a similar position.

My understanding is that the current position is that an NVQ level 3 plus 18th Edition will get you able to notify domestic work but not carry out EICRs under the schemes umbrella. Doing 2391-52 on top gets you ability to do EICRs under the scheme's name.

I think the non-negotiable part is now the NVQ 3. Possibly 2391-51 too.

Please do post back as it would be good to clarify the current position.
It's certainly no 'walk in the park' these days.

 

[dunscombe]

The goal posts seem to keep moving, and you need to talk to Napit who I found very helpful when I was in a similar position.

My understanding is that the current position is that an NVQ level 3 plus 18th Edition will get you able to notify domestic work but not carry out EICRs under the schemes umbrella. Doing 2391-52 on top gets you ability to do EICRs under the scheme's name.

I think the non-negotiable part is now the NVQ 3. Possibly 2391-51 too.

Please do post back as it would be good to clarify the current position.
It's certainly no 'walk in the park' these days.

Hi please see attached this will get me domestic only need testing and inspecting for commercial

 

[timhoward]

Hi please see attached this will get me domestic only need testing and inspecting for commercial

That was my understanding, thanks.
The irony of course is that you only actually need them for domestic installation work.

(Unless you do PV, or want to spend your life arguing with landlords regarding PRS testing )

If I had a pound for every time I've wondered about not bothering....my issue is that if I leave I won't get back in as I only have 16th, 18th, 2391 and their own 7232 which at a particular moment in time was enough to be welcomed into the club.

 

[dunscombe]

That was my understanding, thanks.
The irony of course is that you only actually need them for domestic installation work.

(Unless you do PV, or want to spend your life arguing with landlords regarding PRS testing )

If I had a pound for every time I've wondered about not bothering....my issue is that if I leave I won't get back in as I only have 16th, 18th, 2391 and their own 7232 which at a particular moment in time was enough to be welcomed into the club.

So it turns out my NVQ 3 covers part of the testing and inspecting course so I only need to do 2391-51 course to top up for now.

 

[rewireIT]

That was my understanding, thanks.
The irony of course is that you only actually need them for domestic installation work.

(Unless you do PV, or want to spend your life arguing with landlords regarding PRS testing )

If I had a pound for every time I've wondered about not bothering....my issue is that if I leave I won't get back in as I only have 16th, 18th, 2391 and their own 7232 which at a particular moment in time was enough to be welcomed into the club.

Could always do your nvq in that situation. Could do it in a couple of months easily.

Tbh if I was a housebasher I wouldn't give them my money, total scam.

 

[DPG]

Could always do your nvq in that situation. Could do it in a couple of months easily.

Tbh if I was a housebasher I wouldn't give them my money, total scam.

He needs to be able to notify work. Yes, he could do it himself, but then he would be paying big fees to the LA building control.

 

[oscar21]

As I said on the other thread (JIB), its all about the money, change the goal posts every few years and kerching, more expensive update courses, more money down the drain and all to feed the coffers of desk jockeys getting rich of our back breaking work, absolute parasites.

I wonder how many decent older sparks say within 10-15 years of retirement will say I cant be bothered with this circus any more and just get a job delivering for Tesco's instead. Not that many younger ones coming through anymore so you are left with the idiots who cant do a decent job or the idiots that are willing to give every penny they earn to someone else.

 

[DPG]

As I said on the other thread (JIB), its all about the money, change the goal posts every few years and kerching, more expensive update courses, more money down the drain and all to feed the coffers of desk jockeys getting rich of our back breaking work, absolute parasites.

I wonder how many decent older sparks say within 10-15 years of retirement will say I cant be bothered with this circus any more and just get a job delivering for Tesco's instead. Not that many younger ones coming through anymore so you are left with the idiots who cant do a decent job or the idiots that are willing to give every penny they earn to someone else.

You only need to keep up to date with stuff though. As in many professions. Part of your CPF really.

Admittedly if you leave a scheme and rejoin a few years later then the requirements may have changed. But such is life. And don't forget many people on here have been saying for a good while now that the schemes should be more stringent about who can join.

 

[Risteard]

As I said on the other thread (JIB), its all about the money, change the goal posts every few years and kerching, more expensive update courses, more money down the drain and all to feed the coffers of desk jockeys getting rich of our back breaking work, absolute parasites.

I wonder how many decent older sparks say within 10-15 years of retirement will say I cant be bothered with this circus any more and just get a job delivering for Tesco's instead. Not that many younger ones coming through anymore so you are left with the idiots who cant do a decent job or the idiots that are willing to give every penny they earn to someone else.

To be fair the JIB has been remarkably consistent about Gold Card requirements, and fairly inexpensive too.

 

[rewireIT]

He needs to be able to notify work. Yes, he could do it himself, but then he would be paying big fees to the LA building control.

I am absolutely comfortable with not notifying. It makes zero difference to anything including the standard of the work.

 

[rewireIT]

As I said on the other thread (JIB), its all about the money, change the goal posts every few years and kerching, more expensive update courses, more money down the drain and all to feed the coffers of desk jockeys getting rich of our back breaking work, absolute parasites.

I wonder how many decent older sparks say within 10-15 years of retirement will say I cant be bothered with this circus any more and just get a job delivering for Tesco's instead. Not that many younger ones coming through anymore so you are left with the idiots who cant do a decent job or the idiots that are willing to give every penny they earn to someone else.

To be fair, up my end absolutely everyone is struggling for sparks. Rates have gone through the roof too compared to the last couple of years.

 

[DPG]

I am absolutely comfortable with not notifying. It makes zero difference to anything including the standard of the work.

Its a requirement of the profession. I've just spoken to a mate of mine who's gas safe - he has a different opinion to you.

The MOT guy says he just tests cars and doesn't notify anyone. Says it's all the same.

Each to their own.

 

[rewireIT]

Its a requirement of the profession. I've just spoken to a mate of mine who's gas safe - he has a different opinion to you.

The MOT guy says he just tests cars and doesn't notify anyone. Says it's all the same.

Each to their own.

Those things are exactly the same as not telling the council you did some work. Exactly the same, lol. Notifying is a giant hoax and people like you allow them to perpetuate it against hard working tradesmen. The only argument you can give for notifying being necessary is 'because they told us to'.

As if you told your mate about my comment too.

 

[DPG]

Those things are exactly the same as not telling the council you did some work. Exactly the same, lol. Notifying is a giant hoax and people like you allow them to perpetuate it against hard working tradesmen. The only argument you can give for notifying being necessary is 'because they told us to'.

As if you told your mate about my comment too.

Wow, I think we're full on conspiracy theory here.

Obviously the conversation with 'my mate' was made up yes. It was a turn of phrase. Obviously.

 

[LukeD]

Those things are exactly the same as not telling the council you did some work. Exactly the same, lol. Notifying is a giant hoax and people like you allow them to perpetuate it against hard working tradesmen. The only argument you can give for notifying being necessary is 'because they told us to'.

As if you told your mate about my comment too.

Ive said irt and many others also...Its a all a joke .The system is pathetic in this country

 

[DPG]

Ive said irt and many others also...Its a all a joke .The system is pathetic in this country

The electrical systems and regulations are much better in other countries of course. Ermm, right I can name you a lot of countries that are worse than our system. Or VERY worse.

 

[nicebutdim]

If electrics are done properly and tested properly i see zero reason to notify outside of 'because they tell us to.'

And if your granny had balls, she'd have been your grandad.

If people could be relied upon to do all manner of things properly, there'd be less argument in favour of regulation. People tinker with stuff they shouldn't. People drive cars in a dangerous condition, because the next MOT isn't due yet. Trades turn out rough work because they can get away with it.

 

[westward10]

Can we keep this friendly please or certain members will be removed from the thread.

 

[oscar21]

Wow, I think we're full on conspiracy theory here.

Obviously the conversation with 'my mate' was made up yes. It was a turn of phrase. Obviously.

You cant call him a conspiracy theorist and then say you made half of it up. He is of course right though, if you get work done and don't notify it zero will happen about it, no enforcement, nothing. thousands of notifiable building works go unchecked every single day from a replacement window to a full extension, the councils have neither the resources or the interest to follow any of them up.

The only reason part P is asked for so much is because the media propaganda has reported that you will be unable to sell your house if you haven't got all the required paperwork in order which includes electrical sign offs, the scammers have spent the budget on scare stories instead of actually improving the sector. This is of course rubbish, at least 40% of house buyers are cash buyers and they can buy whatever they want cert or no cert and as for the other 60%, well I'd be surprised if too many mortgage companies wer that arsed either,

 

[LukeD]

You cant call him a conspiracy theorist and then say you made half of it up. He is of course right though, if you get work done and don't notify it zero will happen about it, no enforcement, nothing. thousands of notifiable building works go unchecked every single day from a replacement window to a full extension, the councils have neither the resources or the interest to follow any of them up.

The only reason part P is asked for so much is because the media propaganda has reported that you will be unable to sell your house if you haven't got all the required paperwork in order which includes electrical sign offs, the scammers have spent the budget on scare stories instead of actually improving the sector. This is of course rubbish, at least 40% of house buyers are cash buyers and they can buy whatever they want cert or no cert and as for the other 60%, well I'd be surprised if too many mortgage companies wer that arsed either,

so right..... why bother to do anything legally now ? Its 8 ladies with a packet of biscuits running the floor at NEICIC and they DONT CARE ONE BIT

 

[oscar21]

so right..... why bother to do anything legally now ? Its 8 ladies with a packet of biscuits running the floor at NEICIC and they DONT CARE ONE BIT

If anyone doesn't care its the NICEY, that much is certainly true. Look, dont shoot the messenger, I'm only telling it how it is.

 

[rewireIT]

You cant call him a conspiracy theorist and then say you made half of it up. He is of course right though, if you get work done and don't notify it zero will happen about it, no enforcement, nothing. thousands of notifiable building works go unchecked every single day from a replacement window to a full extension, the councils have neither the resources or the interest to follow any of them up.

The only reason part P is asked for so much is because the media propaganda has reported that you will be unable to sell your house if you haven't got all the required paperwork in order which includes electrical sign offs, the scammers have spent the budget on scare stories instead of actually improving the sector. This is of course rubbish, at least 40% of house buyers are cash buyers and they can buy whatever they want cert or no cert and as for the other 60%, well I'd be surprised if too many mortgage companies wer that arsed either,

100% correct. My dad did his own electrics and when he sold his very expensive house to a mortgage buyer, all that happened was he had to pay for an EICR which of course passed with flying colours. Then the house was sold. Nobody is stopping people from buying multi hundred thousand pound assets and spending large sums on fees over the electrics.

 

[rewireIT]

so right..... why bother to do anything legally now ? Its 8 ladies with a packet of biscuits running the floor at NEICIC and they DONT CARE ONE BIT

Some laws are stupid and should be ignored because the level of harm done by ignoring them is zero. Especially when the repercussions are also zero. I'm sure you've always stuck to exactly 70 when on a large empty motorway at night in perfect conditions though.

The difference between people is that if they were to suddenly claim it was the law that everyone pays 99% tax, some would simply start working cash, the compliant slaves would complain about the 'tax dodgers' and the argument essentially boils down to 'well i have to be a slave, so they should be a slave too.'

 

[mattg4321]

To be fair, the more stringent entry requirements seem to have cut down on the total cowboys operating under a scheme name near me.

I think it’s more to do with the slowing flow of Eastern European sparks for various reasons and the retiring of many older sparks and not so many young coming through, but I’ve been able to put my rates up by nearly 100% over 5 years and I’m still winning nearly every quote.

 

[littlespark]

Councils can’t keep track of which buildings have RAAC in them, never mind keeping records of electrical work.


Current affairs…. Satire….. whooop!

 

[LukeD]

Currently dealing with local council about dodgy electricians and EICR's . You wont meet a more stupid bunch ever in most cases... no one cares . No wonder many of the dodgy ones seem to make a great living

 

[davesparks]

We used to regularly have threads on here complaining about how joining the NICEIC etc is too easy and they are letting anyone in.
Many posts would be calling for the NICEIC to toughen up their membership requirements and only allow fully qualified electricians to join.


And now here we have a thread complaining that they've done what we were asking for!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

That was my understanding, thanks.
The irony of course is that you only actually need them for domestic installation work.

(Unless you do PV, or want to spend your life arguing with landlords regarding PRS testing )

If I had a pound for every time I've wondered about not bothering....my issue is that if I leave I won't get back in as I only have 16th, 18th, 2391 and their own 7232 which at a particular moment in time was enough to be welcomed into the club.

I 'think' you have 2 years grace Tim. I.e if you did leave Napit, then as long as you reapply within 2 years they will take you back on, assuming the following...

"It is acceptable to permit new applications from an existing or previously recognised Qualified Supervisor, provided that they have been a Qualified Supervisor within two years of the application; and can provide a letter or similar evidence from the previous scheme provider confirming their Qualified Supervisor status and the scope of work previously assessed, which must be equal to the scope of work being applied for."

The above paragraph is taken from page 28 of the EAS Minimum requirements (attached).

You could try it for a year and see if you lose much work and then rejoin. Probably not worth the hassle though. I'd keep paying the painfully high £500+ and just grin and bear it. My plan is to stop being registered when I start slowing down (around age 55-60) and just do non notifiable work. Or, you could just 'do a Tel' and say balls to it.

 

[rewireIT]

To be fair, the more stringent entry requirements seem to have cut down on the total cowboys operating under a scheme name near me.

They just don't operate under the scheme anymore. All the cowboys who were allowed on before 2021 have lifetime access.

 

[Mike Johnson]

He needs to be able to notify work. Yes, he could do it himself, but then he would be paying big fees to the LA building control.

Surely the big fees are just passed onto the client?

 

[DPG]

Surely the big fees are just passed onto the client?

Well possibly so, but then his prices will be considerably higher than someone who is registered with a scheme. Depending on the council there could be over £300 to add to the customer's bill.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Hi, as I’m trying to grow my little business I keep coming across many obstacles namely trying to join a competent trade scheme. NAPIT seem to be the only one that suit my current situation.. has anyone any experience with these people as I’m finding it difficult to say the least! Or can anyone recommend an alternative. I don’t have my testing and inspecting ticket which rules my out of NICEIC!! I need something in place to get my work notified to council

What is the obstacle just the joining of a scheme? or are you loosing work because you are not part of a scheme? two totally different scenarios.

You can notify your work to the LA without being in a scheme, just pay the fee and as I said on the post above, pass the cost onto the client.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Well possibly so, but then his prices will be considerably higher than someone who is registered with a scheme. Depending on the council there could be over £300 to add to the customer's bill.

They can always operate like an Estate Agent and submit a price plus fees.

 

[rewireIT]

You can notify your work to the LA without being in a scheme, just pay the fee and as I said on the post above, pass the cost onto the client.

But that leaves you having to charge 700 quid to run in a cooker feed.

 

[oscar21]

We used to regularly have threads on here complaining about how joining the NICEIC etc is too easy and they are letting anyone in.
Many posts would be calling for the NICEIC to toughen up their membership requirements and only allow fully qualified electricians to join.


And now here we have a thread complaining that they've done what we were asking for!

Its not that we are complaining about them being too stringent, its more to do with the fact that to wire a socket in a bedroom for someone you need to jump though numerous expensive hoops but to wire a full factory with three phase and many killing machines you don't need anything, its just madness.

In my opinion every spark should be assessed just once or maybe every 10 years or so to see if they can actually do the job, if they can then they can operate as an electrician whether they have qualifications or not, they could then get a licence to operate as an electrician in any field, payable to the government, just like a driving licence. You wouldn't be able to employ anyone who didn't have a licence and use yours instead, just like a driver cant use your driving licence to drive a truck.

But where is the money in that, imagine the NICEIC faced with that scenario, they would run out of brown envelopes trying to stop it.

 

[pirate]

£700 for a cooker feed sounds about right to me! I'll run them in all day and night for that!
Anyway, just to put a different slant on paying £500 a year for joining a scheme, in a previous life my "scheme" charged £1200/year and there was no way of avoiding that. Plus, you had to show evidence of PI cover (no choice of provider, you had to use the schemes provider) and at the last count the premium was around £50k, on top of which you had to pay an excess of £9k on each and every claim, and you also had to show at least 20 hours CPD each year.
So glad I retired and just do smokes, ISITEE, minor domestic electrics and LRA for some private landlords. As I've said before, the paperwork now is minimal, thank goodness!

 

[oscar21]

Its no even the £500 a year thats the problem, I don't mind paying that if it keeps the cowboys out. Its the never ending changes to everything, all because they want to maximise their revenue stream, not to make things any safer. remember when an amendment to the regs meant printing out a bit of paper and sticking it into your book, nowadays an amendment means you have to buy an new £80 book and do a £400 update course, all so you can carry on doing exactly the same as you did before.

 

[DPG]

Its no even the £500 a year thats the problem, I don't mind paying that if it keeps the cowboys out. Its the never ending changes to everything, all because they want to maximise their revenue stream, not to make things any safer. remember when an amendment to the regs meant printing out a bit of paper and sticking it into your book, nowadays an amendment means you have to buy an new £80 book and do a £400 update course, all so you can carry on doing exactly the same as you did before.

But it's the same in a lot of other professions don't forget.

And you don't carry on exactly as you did before - you adapt to changes. Otherwise nobody would be fitting RCBOs, SPDs, etc and would still be fitting type AC RCDs.

 

[nicebutdim]

But it's the same in a lot of other professions don't forget.

And you don't carry on exactly as you did before - you adapt to changes. Otherwise nobody would be fitting RCBOs, SPDs, etc and would still be fitting type AC RCDs.

It's 100 times worse in many professions. Life in this day and age is about regulation and arse covering - we can accept this and live with it or ignore it and deal with the potential consequences.

 

[oscar21]

It's 100 times worse in many professions. Life in this day and age is about regulation and arse covering - we can accept this and live with it or ignore it and deal with the potential consequences.

With the amount of dodgy wiring I rip out (its every single job I ever go to) its plainly obvious to me the consequences are zero.

 

[nicebutdim]

With the amount of dodgy wiring I rip out (its every single job I ever go to) its plainly obvious to me the consequences are zero.

Do whatever you feel you need to do where regulations are concerned, but moaning on a forum isn't going to make any difference. You have the freedom of personal choice: comply or don't. While I agree that little seems to be done about dangerous work, it's worth remembering that you only have to be unlucky once when choosing to ignore regulations which aren't to your liking.

I do hope if you're unlucky enough to be the exception who faces consequences that you take it on the chin and not moan about how others always get away with it.

 

[oscar21]

Do whatever you feel you need to do where regulations are concerned, but moaning on a forum isn't going to make any difference. You have the freedom of personal choice: comply or don't. While I agree that little seems to be done about dangerous work, it's worth remembering that you only have to be unlucky once when choosing to ignore regulations which aren't to your liking.

I do hope if you're unlucky enough to be the exception who faces consequences that you take it on the chin and not moan about how others always get away with it.

Not sure why its gone from me not agreeing with how its all set up and accusing the part P schemers of scamming people to me being a cowboy who does dodgy work but hey ho.

 

[nicebutdim]

Not sure why its gone from me not agreeing with how its all set up and accusing the part P schemers of scamming people to me being a cowboy who does dodgy work but hey ho.

Who accused you of scamming customers or being a cowboy? I simply addressed your points about not complying with regulations.

 

[davesparks]

Its not that we are complaining about them being too stringent, its more to do with the fact that to wire a socket in a bedroom for someone you need to jump though numerous expensive hoops but to wire a full factory with three phase and many killing machines you don't need anything, its just madness.

So your issue isn't with the NICEIC then but is in fact with the building regulations?