Approved tradesmen scheme

[davesparks]

But where is the money in that, imagine the NICEIC faced with that scenario, they would run out of brown envelopes trying to stop it.

I think the NICEIC would carry on being what they have always been, a club which electrical contractors can join if they want to.

 

[davesparks]

With the amount of dodgy wiring I rip out (its every single job I ever go to) its plainly obvious to me the consequences are zero.

There are consequences.

I've been to A&E as a result of someones dodgy work, I know of one electrician who lost their eyesight for 3 days and the company where I served my apprenticeship had previously had an apprentice electrician die due to someone else's dodgy work.

The consequences are very serious!

 

[rewireIT]

There are consequences.

I've been to A&E as a result of someones dodgy work, I know of one electrician who lost their eyesight for 3 days and the company where I served my apprenticeship had previously had an apprentice electrician die due to someone else's dodgy work.

The consequences are very serious!

So not notifying = work that puts people in hospital? Come on you don't really believe that.

 

[davesparks]

So not notifying = work that puts people in hospital? Come on you don't really believe that.

Read the post that I was replying to, it is saying that there are zero consequences to dodgy electrical work.

 

[oscar21]

Read the post that I was replying to, it is saying that there are zero consequences to dodgy electrical work.

Zero for the person doing the dodgy work. I myself have been injured due to other peoples incompetence. There is only ever one case that made the media from what I can recal, Emma Shaw and then the tester only got a slap on the wrist, that was 10 years ago or more.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Did not the guy who wired up the outside lights in the Public house where the child was killed go to prison?

 

[LukeD]

Did not the guy who wired up the outside lights in the Public house where the child was killed go to prison?

The main reason it got media attention was along the lines of a relative was a MP?

 

[nicebutdim]

Did not the guy who wired up the outside lights in the Public house where the child was killed go to prison?

12 months.

The main reason it got media attention was along the lines of a relative was a MP?

That was a different case.


A local electrician was jailed a few months back for 45 months. Granted he was caught carrying 4kg of cocaine.



Quite a few electricians have been jailed for leaving behind dangerous work and also for causing death through negligence. I have this thing called Google and it took me seconds to find quite a few examples in recent years.

 

[ipf]

There is a certain matter conscience involved here.
Just because 'rules' are not followed or even ignored, doesn't mean they are wrong.

It is a law of the land that many domestic installations, of all kind, should be notified. If an electrician, for example, wants to bypass said law, it is up to them. If danger and problems result, let them take the consequences.......but if someone dies as a result, could they care a tinkers about conscience and taking blame?

Most of our customers request certification and, in domestic instances, registration with the local authority. So we do it, not just because it is required by law. After all, as an NICEIC member, we did everything else but register before it began. To me, it meant a lot more then.

To tell you the truth, I don't half see some crap work around....dangerous and extremely sub standard. Are those responsible scam registered or are they taking back handers in the pub? Or do they just refuse to bow to 'rules', lawful or not?

You pay your money, you take your chance, it seems......as usual....and that is getting more worrying by the day.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There is a certain matter conscience involved here.
Just because 'rules' are not followed or even ignored, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Even the British Standards are not rules, but advisory, they may well be used in court as a reference, but if proof can be given that the work was over and above the standard then that would be taken into account and any case based on the BS would be void, the HSE are not in the business of bringing case's to court that they don't think they can win, in the case of a death however, that would be a criminal proceeding and not brought by the HSE even if they where asked for comment as they may well have been called to the scene of the accident/failure.

 

[rewireIT]

It is a law of the land that many domestic installations, of all kind, should be notified. If an electrician, for example, wants to bypass said law, it is up to them. If danger and problems result, let them take the consequences.......but if someone dies as a result, could they care a tinkers about conscience and taking blame?

Again for some reason we're equating not telling someone you've done work with potential danger. Why? Why would 'danger and problems result' from not notifying?

 

[nicebutdim]

Again for some reason we're equating not telling someone you've done work with potential danger. Why? Why would 'danger and problems result' from not notifying?

That link has been made numerous times by others defending the notion of non compliance with building regulations. As such it is quite reasonable to respond to the argument.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

That link has been made numerous times by others defending the notion of non compliance with building regulations. As such it is quite reasonable to respond to the argument.

Pehaps I'm misread ipf's post, but I too am struggling to see how not notifying a job would result in death.

 

[loz2754]

Someone who has such a blasé attitude to complying with the statutory requirement to notify, is likely to carry over that attitude to other aspects of their work. Such as the requirements for earthing the armour of an armoured cable.

 

[LukeD]

Even the British Standards are not rules, but advisory, they may well be used in court as a reference, but if proof can be given that the work was over and above the standard then that would be taken into account and any case based on the BS would be void, the HSE are not in the business of bringing case's to court that they don't think they can win, in the case of a death however, that would be a criminal proceeding and not brought by the HSE even if they where asked for comment as they may well have been called to the scene of the accident/failure.

Rules /law /guidelines. Amazing how millions didnt know the difference during covid !

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Someone who has such a blasé attitude to complying with the statutory requirement to notify, is likely to carry over that attitude to other aspects of their work. Such as the requirements for earthing the armour of an armoured cable.

There may be some truth in this, although I think it's more likely to be the other way round - someone who carries out sloppy work is less likely to go to the effort of notifying the job. That said, I (and probably most of us here) have seen work where about the only thing that was done right was the notification.

 

[davesparks]

Pehaps I'm misread ipf's post, but I too am struggling to see how not notifying a job would result in death.

It won't.

There was an earlier post suggesting that all of the dangerous work out there never had any consequences.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It won't.

There was an earlier post suggesting that all of the dangerous work out there never had any consequences.

This is the post I'm referring to:

It is a law of the land that many domestic installations, of all kind, should be notified. If an electrician, for example, wants to bypass said law, it is up to them. If danger and problems result, let them take the consequences.......but if someone dies as a result, could they care a tinkers about conscience and taking blame?

 

[ipf]

Pehaps I'm misread ipf's post, but I too am struggling to see how not notifying a job would result in death.

It reads bad, yes. My fault, late.
Maybe As a result of things in general not being done correctly.
or 'If danger and problems result, due to bad workmanship,

Danger would not result from non notification but notifying is, to some extent, a method of taking responsibility for the job as a whole.
It is only part P, after all

 

[ipf]

I'll agree, the system is a mess, but it's not going to improve the situation if sparks, be they PP registered or not, just ignore it.

 

[LukeD]

Boy, 10, dies after electric shock at Blackpool hotel Tiffany's

The child was found unresponsive on Sunday at a Blackpool hotel and died on Thursday, police say.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DPG]

Boy, 10, dies after electric shock at Blackpool hotel Tiffany's

The child was found unresponsive on Sunday at a Blackpool hotel and died on Thursday, police say.

www.bbc.co.uk

Just started a thread on that one earlier. Be interesting to see what occurred.

 

[rewireIT]

I'll agree, the system is a mess, but it's not going to improve the situation if sparks, be they PP registered or not, just ignore it.

It would though. If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place. You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection. Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely. The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise. It should imo be rolled into the inspection and testing qualification as they sort of go hand in hand.

If this isn't good enough, then instead of introducing stupid rules like schemes they should simply make the qualifications more in depth and harder to achieve.

 

[nicebutdim]

It would though. If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place. You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection. Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely. The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise.

If this isn't good enough, then instead of introducing stupid rules like schemes they should simply make the qualifications more in depth and harder to achieve.

Some of those suggestions are great, but at odds with the fact that on many occasions you've told people not to bother with qualifications and to crack on regardless.

 

[loz2754]

You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

This I totally agree with.

 

[7029 dave]

It would though. If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place. You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection. Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely. The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise. It should imo be rolled into the inspection and testing qualification as they sort of go hand in hand.

If this isn't good enough, then instead of introducing stupid rules like schemes they should simply make the qualifications more in depth and harder to achieve.

You cant make the 18th a closed book exam, nobody can digest the whole book lol

 

[rewireIT]

You cant make the 18th a closed book exam, nobody can digest the whole book lol

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

'Customer wants upstairs and downstairs sockets and lighting, outside lighting, power to an outbuilding powering X circuits, a cooker, a shower, and a hive system for heating/hot water.'

And then you have a professional discussion after where you describe why you chose a 20a radial for the sockets in the shed instead of a ring. Or why you put all incoming cables into one entry hole. Or why you used SWA for the outdoor building. Or why you used a fused spur here and not there. What height did you put sockets and why? Why have you put labels on stuff?

 

[LukeD]

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

Thats a good point

 

[nicebutdim]

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

What do you think the AM2 is?

It involves installing to a given spec. You make a list of materials and get to work - obviously the installation must comply with BS7671.

Edit: To be fair you also suggest an element of design, which would indeed be a good addition to it.

 

[pirate]

I took my car to the main dealer due to an intermittent fault with the electrics. Ok, intermittent ones are a hassle...but the mechanic, sorry, technician, was finally able to replicate the fault...but his computer couldn't tell him what it was or how to fix it because the computer didn't have that fault code. Not the technicians fault, he is highly trained and has all the certificates for working on this vehicle.
In effect, he has his Domestic Installer badge and is "Part P" registered (?) (so glad it's not a thing in Scotland) but he has no idea how to fix the problem. I leave. It's a minor glitch and life is short.
A week later I went to a local tyre place, needing 2 new tyres. As I chatted to the proprietor I mentioned the problem I had with the electrics.
5 minutes later he came back and said it was fixed...a well known problem with these cars...
Experience? Yes. Paperwork and certificates? No.
Do a good job and be able to repel all those who question your work. If you do a good job, you need no backup. If you do a bad job, your scheme membership will not save you...nor should it.
Plough your furrow, but plough it well.

 

[ipf]

You cant make the 18th a closed book exam, nobody can digest the whole book lol

Chew on that, eh?
Too thick for me, too.

 

[rewireIT]

"Part P" registered (?) (so glad it's not a thing in Scotland)

So what is the script in Scotland if you want to do domestic work? No notifying?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

They just don't operate under the scheme anymore. All the cowboys who were allowed on before 2021 have lifetime access.

I'm one of those cowboys

Again for some reason we're equating not telling someone you've done work with potential danger. Why? Why would 'danger and problems result' from not notifying?

Even though you sound quite annoying you've got an interesting point ;-)

I thought about that today. Its really to do with the reason for notifying work and I'm embarrassed to say I'm not sure what that reason is.

I guess the notification system may somewhat decrease builders from carrying out major electrical work as they would be worried about the consequences of getting caught (my builder feels this way).

Perhaps it also encourages the installer to do a good job and not cut corners, as if the work has been notified it may be used as your assessment. If you don't notify it, some may become a little blasé as there's zero chance of anyone checking.

I'm clutching at straws a little though.

 

[davesparks]

If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place.

Who are 'they'?

And they wouldn't 'HAVE' to put different rules in place. Government and local authorities would more likely set up a marketing campaign pushing the importance of part P and notification to customers.
And you'd probably get a lot of customers not paying their bills because the lack of notification has prevented their job getting an LABC completion certificate.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection.

You're missing the most important thing, proven experience. A journeyman type system would be far better. Originally the JIB gradings achieved something of this nature but that has somewhat fallen by the wayside.

Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely.

Those qualifications are not enough to touch any install you like or to prove that you know how to do it safely.
Those qualifications would probably cover you for domestic and light/medium (non-specialist) commercial installations.

 

[davesparks]

The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise.

What would be the point of that?

An exam which assesses your ability to memorise nearly 600 A4 pages of text has no bearing on a persons ability as an electrician. You'd almost certainly drive out a lot of good electricians and end up with an industry full of people with great memories and lacking practical skills.

 

[rewireIT]

What would be the point of that?

An exam which assesses your ability to memorise nearly 600 A4 pages of text has no bearing on a persons ability as an electrician. You'd almost certainly drive out a lot of good electricians and end up with an industry full of people with great memories and lacking practical skills.

Yeah see other posts in this thread regarding your point.

 

[rewireIT]

Those qualifications are not enough to touch any install you like or to prove that you know how to do it safely.
Those qualifications would probably cover you for domestic and light/medium (non-specialist) commercial installations.

Are you purposefully pedantic just to be a contrarian?

I think it has to go without saying i wasn't insinuating that you could do your 18th, I+T and AM2 and then go out working on HV set ups or anything like that.

If you pass said quals you absolutely should be deemed qualified to touch anything domestic small commercial. If not then it's the quals that should be improved and upgraded. What would be the point of them otherwise? What shouldn't happen is people say what you say and then tell you they can cure it with a £500 payment to NAPIT. That's like when they still let me drive my car in the ULEZ and then pretend they've stopped my pollution because i paid them £12.50. It's nonsense.

 

[davesparks]

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

'Customer wants upstairs and downstairs sockets and lighting, outside lighting, power to an outbuilding powering X circuits, a cooker, a shower, and a hive system for heating/hot water.'

So you'd reduce the AM2 down to a simple exam in domestic work without even a basic 3 phase circuit?

 

[loz2754]

So you'd reduce the AM2 down to a simple exam in domestic work without even a basic 3 phase circuit?

There is indeed now such a thing as AM2D. For domestic only.

 

[loz2754]

I often think about jacking it all in because of all this crap. But I don't know what I'd do instead. I love my job. I just want to be allowed to do it and respected enough to not to have jump through so many hoops, just to line the pockets of the politicians and rule makers.

 

[rewireIT]

So you'd reduce the AM2 down to a simple exam in domestic work without even a basic 3 phase circuit?

Nope it was a simple example for the sake of discussion. Keep trying to pick holes to find arguments though.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Kettle, Black, Calling, Pot, Rearrange to well known saying.

 

[Diddy]

2p worth....
I became an electrician in 1988ish. I did my full 4 stage CITB funded SJIB approved apprenticeship. It said on my certificate "completed Apprenticeship". My plastic card said "Electrician" on it. 2 years later my new card said "Approved Electrician" on it.
The "deal" was/is that I/we/Us all kept our regulations updated to ensure that we were all doing the correct things to the correct standards at any given time in the future. So I did my 15th Edition as an apprentice, I done the 16th, 17th and 18th out of my own pocket in keeping with "the deal".
My card if I choose to reapply for one should still say "Approved electrician" based upon the above.
Now IF I live in Scotland it will STILL say Approved electrician, If I try to register in England (Which I also did in the past because I have lived there for the best part of 30 years ) it will say something daft such as electrical Labourer...BUT for the previous 25 years or more my english JIB card said "Approved electrician"
The change ? They have renamed the test from C&G along with the modules we all done to an NVQ3...The NVQ 3 I am led to believe is taking pictures of your work, building up a portfolio and getting all of the above signed/countersigned by an electrician that has witnessed/monitored/mentored me....I did ALL of this as part of my apprenticeship. But there is zero space for the old tickets...
Now I mention the JIB because it is essentially the exact same thing that the likes of the current providers use to decide if you are eligible to register with them. They have effectively shut the door on people like myself who have been working as successful electricians keeping ALL our bits updated. We just woke up one day to learn "Sorry mate you qualified pre 1992 so now you need to prove that you are an electrician again".
for me it's not the tightening of the entry requirements. It's the fact that they have disregarded lots of the official routes taken to become an electrician - lots of the older guys will even say "Those tests were HARDER in our day" well thats arguable but the results seem to back up that claim. My tests were not multiple choice, Nor were they open book, the old 2391 had a pretty horrific failure rate....But suddenly I/We now need an NVQ that doesn't even come close to what I/We already bloody well done.
I did an AM1 and AM2. End of year exams to progress to the next stage....My AM2 even had this mad stuff called MICC in it which seemed to worry a lot of lads, Good job they stripped it out of the test for the shiny new AM2 lol.
As for the schemes themselves and the effectiveness of them. Well we are still waiting on public statements from each scheme as to how many operatives they strike off for bad workmanship. It must be an easy question to answer but yet as far as I am aware the question was asked in the select committee about 10+ years ago and still we don't know the answers.
The schemes are only as effective as those policing them. If they simply say ok show us your bits of paper and get the payment sent to us and your good to go, then that isn't achieving what was "intended" by making it a requirement that to work in a domestic setting you need to be registered with a scheme....And so on.
The NIC will come after you if you use their logo a week after your membership has lapsed though, they are VERY hot on that.

Overall one comes away with the suspicion that the system currently is NOTHING to do with safety and is much more to do with money.
It's quite amusing that I could in england perfectly legally work in an explosive environment doing electrical work, I could do electrical work in nuclear power stations I can do all commercial, all industrial, I could be in charge of 100 electricians on sight and be giving them guidance and showing them what to do even how to do it......But If I go home and decide to add say a brand new circuit for a fridge so its on it's own in my kitchen then in today's world in Enlgland im technically "not allowed" or more to the point I need to get a scheme member to come and check my work, test it and sign it off for me. If nobody can see that is wrong then I really don't know what to say.

The annoying thing is with a few tweaks to the recognition of all routes coupled with surprise inspections of jobs completed (where the scheme contacts a customer and arranges a site visit say 1 week after notification) include ONE phone number for customers to report bad experiences/poor workmanship which would trigger a site visit from an inspector....it's ALL achievable. People would start to fall off the schemes due to their bad workmanship and the customers would be at least semi confident that paying a bit more for a "registered" electrician at least gave you a decent chance of some sort of protection. The gas guys do not seem to have these problems.....