Britain Leave the European Union (Please be polite with other people's views)

[telectrix]

i rarely visit supermarkets. it's a man thing. leave it up to 'er inddoors. milk in local spar is 2.20 for 2 x 2L, so it's not worth firing up the van for a 14 mile round trip just to save 30p.

 

[FatAlan]

You couldn't vote in the EU elections from your keyboard
And the doubts, facts and dodgy multiple signings of that petition make it less than representative
But if you must clutch at straws

Not really. I think the online voting system was proved as being pretty robust unlike the clear social media pro leave manipulation that the public has been bombarded with over the last 40 odd years.

 

[UNG]

Ok then. Clear vote last night for remain parties ahead of Brexit.

Really, a low turnout, voter apathy and politicians making claims they cannot substantiate

The electorate voted to leave and then voted to keep a flaky conservative government in office to run the brexit process the end result has been the petty bickering of politicians who seems to think the leavers lack education and the ability to research what they are not being told by narrow minded politicians who have their own agenda and they have ended up not delivering BREXIT after 3 years. How do you motivate all the electorate after that catalogue of failings

Given we should have left the EU did the leavers stay at home and not bother to vote

Always amazes me how politicians big everything up when they are ahead even when using shallow facts

 

[UNG]

Not really. I think the online voting system was proved as being pretty robust unlike the clear social media pro leave manipulation that the public has been bombarded with over the last 40 odd years.

Facebook founded 2004
Twitter founded 2006

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Personally, in the long run, I doubt whether leaving or staying in the EU will make much difference, to me or the country as a whole.
However, in the short term, I believe it’s going to be a disaster.
Just got to survive for another 10 years, then I can retire.

 

[UNG]

and it's only draught beer that's sold in pints. cans and bottles are in mL. spirits were 1/6 gill/measure. not anymore. and have you seen all the signs that have sprung up on motorways? each exactly 0.5kM spacing.

some supermarkets still sell milk in pints, but most are in litres.

I've noticed signs approaching junctions are appearing with distances in Metres rather than yards

 

[telectrix]

I've noticed signs approaching junctions are appearing with distances in Metres rather than yards

we're all doomed. started with decimalisation. give us a shilling for the metre. meter.

 

[Octopus]

Do you admit that the "Remain" campaign was full of lies?

I've NEVER understood why the remain "campaign" was so awful ......

 

[Octopus]

I've noticed signs approaching junctions are appearing with distances in Metres rather than yards

On major roads and motorways the signs used to be at 1m ........ they are now at about 600m or about 1 km ........ no wonder people make last minute lane changes!

 

[telectrix]

motorway distance signs are still all in miles up in the civilised world north of birmingham.

what made us laught last year was a major diversion on A roads for 6 months , the diversion signs were all in Polish.

 

[UNG]

motorway distance signs are still all in miles up in the civilised world north of birmingham.

what made us laught last year was a major diversion on A roads for 6 months , the diversion signs were all in Polish.

Some routes do have permanent signs in more than one language to stop some of the stupid accidents that happen like getting trapped under low bridges

 

[Darkwood]

I cannot figure out why remainers consistently think brexiteers want to stop immigration, at no point has any campaign for brexit made that claim and still there is no call to stop immigration.

Where brexiteers sit is that we want a controlled immigration policy that we decide as a nation and not one that is forced onto us, we want to put and end to unlimited access to our jobs market which drives industry wages down and displaces jobs for our own nationals.

If we find we cannot fill a job quota in any sector then we will open it up to the world market on an equal basis and not just the EU, this ends the dicriminatory values that we are forced to undertake as a member of the EU.

I'll reiterate that at no point has brexit been about stopping immigration, if that is what you think then you need to stop listening to far right idiots who do not speak for anyone but themselves.

 

[UNG]

After last nights EU election programme I am even more against a second referendum than I was before.
The remainer pushing the second referendum suggested it should have 3 questions
1. Remain
2. Leave with a deal
3. Leave with no deal

The leave supporter on the panel quickly quashed that idea pointing out that the remain campaign are trying to split the leave vote in order to get a remain majority. Why are the remainers really that desperate to force through a remain vote that they need these sort of tactics

 

[plugsandsparks]

Why would remain even be an option , that was ruled out during the first referendum.
I still cannot get my head around how you part leave the EU to keep remainers happy, EU ruled out cherry picking very early on and quite frankly why would the EU give us the good bits without the bad bits, makes no sense to even pursue it.
To me those that are pushing for a "deal" know this and it really means "we dont want to leave" hence keep asking for something that cannot and will not come.
What a total waste of time and peoples lives, no wonder the Brexit party can be invented and within 6 weeks trump all the other parties hands down... tells you alot.

 

[FatAlan]

Facebook founded 2004
Twitter founded 2006

You can add Murdoch media into the mix then. Apologies to our own Murdoch though

 

[UNG]

You can add Murdoch media into the mix then. Apologies to our own Murdoch though

Not sure what you are on but Murdoch media has taken more sides at elections in the last 50 years than there is pages in the Sun

 

[Zerax]

....Leave or remain was quite a clear cut question....

Agreed... in fact, the question at the referendum was deliberately worded to sway people to vote remain... the logic was that if it's as harsh as Leave or Remain, the tendency would be to remain.

This was supported by "Project Fear" containing a whole series of inaccurate and fanciful predictions of what would happen if you dared to vote Leave... none of which ever happened !

 

[Zerax]

Personally, in the long run, I doubt whether leaving or staying in the EU will make much difference, to me or the country as a whole.
However, in the short term, I believe it’s going to be a disaster.
Just got to survive for another 10 years, then I can retire.

In the long run... the EU will not exist in it's current form... the Euro will see to that. Getting out of it now, before it collapses would be fantasic !... if only the 'remainiacs' in Parliament would let us !!

 

[Midwest]

In the long run... the EU will not exist in it's current form... the Euro will see to that. Getting out of it now, before it collapses would be fantasic !... if only the 'remainiacs' in Parliament would let us !!

Not sure its gonna collapse anytime soon, there's too many asking for more handouts. Thing is, if we do leave, and seems thats a big ask at the moment, then it might be the thing that unravels it. Only time will tell.

As a remainer voter, I think now we should roll the dice and see what happens, we've been in worse ----.

 

[FatAlan]

Personally, in the long run, I doubt whether leaving or staying in the EU will make much difference, to me or the country as a whole.
However, in the short term, I believe it’s going to be a disaster.
Just got to survive for another 10 years, then I can retire.

Agree. Go for a no deal Brexit and spend the next 40 years negotiating to get back to where we are now and probably being forced to take up the Euro as well.

 

[UNG]

Agree. Go for a no deal Brexit and spend the next 40 years negotiating to get back to where we are now and probably being forced to take up the Euro as well.

You really need to do some reading !!!!!
Lisbon Treaty ring any bells
We will get the euro sooner than you think if we don't leave

 

[Charlie_]

What is the point of voting politicians into power if the public have to make all the important decisions via a referendum, especially with no knowledge, only propaganda as a source of information.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

What is the point of voting politicians into power if the public have to make all the important decisions via a referendum, especially with no knowledge, only propaganda as a source of information.

That way the politicians can shift the blame onto us.
Thing is, they didn’t expect us to vote leave.

 

[Darkwood]

I agree with recent comments, those that haven't read the lisbon treaty are in for a shock if you think we were going retain the status quo, within the lisbon treaty is defined a full takeover of power from member states and a full Euro alliance (noted we are exempt but we will still be impacted), this is why France and Ireland rejected it and were forced to vote again until the EU got the result they wanted..... the just repackaged the whole thing under a different name with minor changes that did not effect the intention of it and spent many millions in trying to convince the public it was a very different deal.... it wasn't and by 2021 there is going to be a shock to the public of many of these nations when they learn the truth.

 

[FatAlan]

You really need to do some reading !!!!!
Lisbon Treaty ring any bells
We will get the euro sooner than you think if we don't leave

You obviously haven’t read it as this is a well known fallacy that’s been put around.

 

[Darkwood]

You obviously haven’t read it as this is a well known fallacy that’s been put around.

Is this just an opinion, I will happily cite you some very worrying clauses within the Lisbon treaty or you can just look it up, the EU are aiming to be a superstate, they have admitted that in the light of been pushed to by brexit, within the lisbon treaty it continues to absorb nations individual powers, limits their democratic vote and forces them into taking rules dictated to them from unelected hierarchy who are totally unaccountable....

I am sorry but I want the next generation to be allowed to remove those that rule their lives if they have a majority against them.... Democracy is a right and privilege many countries don't have and look at the state of them, if you want to ignore the referendum you basically make the case for dictatorship.

 

[Darkwood]

I will only accept a second referendum if it honours the democratic vote of 2016, thus the only option should be leaving be it a choice between the deal on offer or no deal, anyone that makes a case for remain as an option is undemocratic and a sore loser.

You lost the vote, deal with it and I am sorry to inform you but we did know what we was voting for because both remain and leave said it was an exit from the single market and customs union.... funny how some parties have gone back on their own manifesto promises... both Labour and the Conservatives .... shocked that Brexit romped home well ahead of the rest!

 

[FatAlan]

You really need to do some reading !!!!!
Lisbon Treaty ring any bells
We will get the euro sooner than you think if we don't leave

When?

 

[Charlie_]

Nigel Farage set for general election comeback?
Could be Prime Minister?
Would be good for Anglo American relationships and an end to global warming problems in this country

 

[Octopus]

So if there were to be a 2nd referendum and its for "remain" - then its a 1 all draw, will we need a 3rd?

 

[FatAlan]

Why don’t we just speak to Harry Hill and just have a fight

 

[Charlie_]

Let’s get the monarchy back in charge..
Reclaim foreign lands and resurrect the British Empire.

 

[andyb]

You really need to do some reading !!!!!
Lisbon Treaty ring any bells
We will get the euro sooner than you think if we don't leave

We have an opt out, won't happen unless we want it to.

 

[andyb]

Is this just an opinion, I will happily cite you some very worrying clauses within the Lisbon treaty or you can just look it up,

Bit busy this morning Ung so can you cite these clauses please.

 

[snowhead]

We have an opt out, won't happen unless we want it to.

27 verses 1 will eventually over rule that.

 

[andyb]

27 verses 1 will eventually over rule that.

What does it say? If you’re using it as an argument I assume you’ve read it so perhaps you can post a link.
By verse do you mean article?

 

[snowhead]

What does it say? If you’re using it as an argument I assume you’ve read it so perhaps you can post a link.
By verse do you mean article?

The other 27 Countries would eventually overcome the U.K opt out.

 

[Darkwood]

Bit busy this morning Ung so can you cite these clauses please.

I prefer Darkwood

The Lisbon Treaty brings its member states that are not already so into the Euro by 2025 as stated by the EU itself, to note here we are exempt from this but the effects of which pulling in more poorer nations into the Euro which is already in trouble and been artificially keep afloat for many yrs will means those members making positive contributions to the EU will see a big rise in their contributions to counter the effects of this move.

The Lisbon Treaty dilutes the power of veto, although it does not fully remove it, the EU are making it difficult for any nation to scupper its plans and directions and this is just one of a few steps within the Lisbon Treaty that effectively weaken it members states powers while strengthening the EU's, there will be 3 types of voting and the EU gets to choose which it uses, only the unanimous vote allows a veto to block a proposed change, do you really think the EU will allow this unanimous vote to be put on regulation and laws it desperate to get approved to realise its ideology.

The Lisbon treaty expands it powers over member trade deals, although we already have to abide by what the EU allows in any trade deal we strike, the Lisbon Treaty extends those powers further.

The Lisbon Treaty expands its power over its members national policy, although there are plenty of areas member states still have control we see this as yet more power grabbing and implicitly part of it long term goal of a superstate where it would need to become the one ruling body.

The Lisbon Treaty mentions nothing about member state rebates and the reason is because in 2020 the EU is aiming to stop members rebates so any remainer arguments about getting rebates to help our industries is going to be very short lived, this means effectively the EU gets a massive boost to monies received from members making positive contributions, also even given this change the contributions expected to be given to the EU by 2020 with have risen a number of billions to about 16.5billion as forecast by The office of budget responsibility.

In a nutshell, we are passing over more powers, paying more for it and losing our rebates as a way of the EU saying thank you, I have only mentioned the changes that are yet to occur and not even touched on the changes we already are complying since the Lisbon Treaty was drafted and agreed.

 

[andyb]

27 verses 1 will eventually over rule that.

Sorry Snow, I misunderstood what you were saying.

But no, we will not lose our opt out unless we give it up.

 

[Octopus]

We have an opt out, won't happen unless we want it to.

Not taking sides here, but under the changes in voting outlined in the Lisbon Treaty, which will be implemented, blocking anything will get far, far harder .....

 

[Octopus]

The other 27 Countries would eventually overcome the U.K opt out.

One thing on our side is that there are 9 countries, including the UK, that do not use the Euro. The most vocal "anti" country is Poland

 

[Zerax]

....Given we should have left the EU did the leavers stay at home and not bother to vote...

I seem to recall that the turnout was lower in Remain supporting

Sorry Snow, I misunderstood what you were saying.

But no, we will not lose our opt out unless we give it up.

It'll be bargained away to fix a problem that the EU have created... Blair was close to giving Gibraltar to the Spanish until he realised the backlash and lack of internal political benefit...

 

[Darkwood]

One thing on our side is that there are 9 countries, including the UK, that do not use the Euro. The most vocal "anti" country is Poland

Not for much longer, the EU is going to bring 7 of these members into the Euro by 2025, the only 2 countries who have an opt out are ourselves the UK and Denmark have an opt-out so we will not be adopting the Euro unless we decide we want to, if we stayed and remained outside the Euro then you would probably find over the next decade or so that the EU makes it more and more difficult to be an EU member and not in the Euro because that is what its goal is as stated by the president and others in recent yrs.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sounds like a lot of speculation to me.
Thing is though, would any of it be a bad thing?

 

[Darkwood]

The bad thing Spin is that the EU is a ring fenced trade body, been in it gives a certain guarantee of economical growth which is wonderful if you are one of the existing or joining poorer nations but the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and been part of the EU means our economy is been artificially held back, this can easily be shown by decades of the worlds economical growth figures. If you are in the EU then your economy over the last 2 decades grew far slower than the rest of the western worlds trading economies.

The other problems with been locked into the EU is anti-competition regulations, the problem of a ring fenced system is lack of competition from the rest of the world because the goods are either tariffed and/or regulations imposed that makes it hard for other free markets to comply.. this has some serious negative effects:-

-Quality of good fall over time
-Prices for those goods rises
-Workers making those goods are often less skilled and underpayed

I can vouch definitely for this as I import Italian machinery which is often overpriced, non compliant and poor design and quality and yet I cannot directly bring in better quality, higher standard gear from other nations because of imposed tariffs etc which in a free market we could do and benefit as an economy and a nation.

I constantly hear remainers saying the EU is about free trade between members but this is all a smoke screen, this free trade only helps the massive corporations that are big enough to lean on the EU, the rest of the system punishes middle and small business with tariffs on goods and the end buyer too, the most basics in goods or the essentials like food, clothing etc which you need are heavily tariffed, this is something that effect the poorest the hardest, if we left we could set our own tariffs and set a competitive market against the EU which if it wanted to compete would be forced to reduce its own tariffs ... this is why the EU is so desperate we remain in the customs union and why I believe we are been cheated on with the referendum, the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers with its trade and financial contributions, leaving would leave a massive dent in for the EU while the UK benefits from the savings it makes on contribution and the cheaper better quality goods competition brings as we trade under our own terms that suit our needs and not those of a ring fenced system.

This is basic business sense on a national scale, the economy forecast is what investors look at, isn't it strange over the last few yrs that foreign investment into our shores has been at record highs while respectively the EU has seen a big fall... all in the light of Brexit, the only thing that has slowed down our investment recently is there now seems to be a chance we will be tied somehow to the customs union which has spooked those same investors.

 

[Octopus]

If 25 countries adopt the euro, and don't adopt political and fiscal union, the Germans will get wealthier, and the majority of the Euro zone will get poorer.

In uk terms it would be like the south east not sharing its wealth around the UK .....

 

[FatAlan]

The bad thing Spin is that the EU is a ring fenced trade body, been in it gives a certain guarantee of economical growth which is wonderful if you are one of the existing or joining poorer nations but the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and been part of the EU means our economy is been artificially held back, this can easily be shown by decades of the worlds economical growth figures. If you are in the EU then your economy over the last 2 decades grew far slower than the rest of the western worlds trading economies.

The other problems with been locked into the EU is anti-competition regulations, the problem of a ring fenced system is lack of competition from the rest of the world because the goods are either tariffed and/or regulations imposed that makes it hard for other free markets to comply.. this has some serious negative effects:-

-Quality of good fall over time
-Prices for those goods rises
-Workers making those goods are often less skilled and underpayed

I can vouch definitely for this as I import Italian machinery which is often overpriced, non compliant and poor design and quality and yet I cannot directly bring in better quality, higher standard gear from other nations because of imposed tariffs etc which in a free market we could do and benefit as an economy and a nation.

I constantly hear remainers saying the EU is about free trade between members but this is all a smoke screen, this free trade only helps the massive corporations that are big enough to lean on the EU, the rest of the system punishes middle and small business with tariffs on goods and the end buyer too, the most basics in goods or the essentials like food, clothing etc which you need are heavily tariffed, this is something that effect the poorest the hardest, if we left we could set our own tariffs and set a competitive market against the EU which if it wanted to compete would be forced to reduce its own tariffs ... this is why the EU is so desperate we remain in the customs union and why I believe we are been cheated on with the referendum, the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers with its trade and financial contributions, leaving would leave a massive dent in for the EU while the UK benefits from the savings it makes on contribution and the cheaper better quality goods competition brings as we trade under our own terms that suit our needs and not those of a ring fenced system.

This is basic business sense on a national scale, the economy forecast is what investors look at, isn't it strange over the last few yrs that foreign investment into our shores has been at record highs while respectively the EU has seen a big fall... all in the light of Brexit, the only thing that has slowed down our investment recently is there now seems to be a chance we will be tied somehow to the customs union which has spooked those same investors.

Good post Darkwood. Where did you get your figures on foreign investment? FT has said that it’s at its lowest level for six years and that investment by UK firms in Europe is up 12%

 

[Darkwood]

Good post Darkwood. Where did you get your figures on foreign investment? FT has said that it’s at its lowest level for six years and that investment by UK firms in Europe is up 12%

Although it's a old thread, you have answered your own question here, investment in UK is at an all time high 2017-18 and EU has fallen, given that the UK has a bigger economy than the vast majority of EU members combined, in respect we can evaluate it to the EU losing 18 members given our contribution, the reason why we are in this situation is a remainer did a deal that a country would do only in a surrender situation, she never put our strongest card on the table hence the laughed at us and ignored Mays cries.... now the tables have turned because the default is no deal legally so the EU WILL DO A LAST MINUTE DEAL... the 15 countries that depend on our trade is a very strong card... or you can listen to the biased media who even the BBC get millions in funding from the EU.

 

[Darkwood]

Ps, got the the figures from external foreign investment over the given dates by the the government figures .. something they fail to express over the normal biased media channels.

 

[FatAlan]

Interesting. So you are saying that the FT figures are wrong? It’s also interesting that you feel the BBC is biased against Brexit. I had the opposite impression bearing in mind the government appoint the chair. Hope you’re right re a last minute deal.