can anyone simplify what the deskilling of the industry means?

[sparkyezz]

hi all, new to the forum.
was looking round the forum after the info i found was really helpful, and the thread that came to my attention was the long thread about the deskilling of the industry.
basically, i just want to understand what this means, what it means for electricians, what it means for trainee electricians, what it means for the industry as a whole...
why is it getting 'deskilled' so to speak? has it or is it still going through? is there a chance it wont go through?
i obviously understand that it can't be good for the industry, but i want to be able to understand it in a bit more depth.
another reason why i'm asking is because i am wanting to persue a career as an electrician, i am very kean to achieve this as i enjoy the electrical installation work, but if it is in my best interest to not go ahead with this career due to the 'deskilling' of the industry, then i won't.
i'm not one of these deluded trainees that rekons it will be a walk in the park in getting qualified and then finding a job, then be earning 40k over night... but obviously if the rate of pay is majorly affected due to this deskilling, then i think that i'l be getting my coat and be looking at other industries ... :auto:

anyway thank in advance for any replies,
sparkyezz

 

[Engineer54]

If you are presently on a 5/6/7 Week electricians course (so-called) Then it means YOU unfortunately!! As you will leave that course with a set of qualifications that are minimal to say the least, and without the skill to use them, ie, ...Deskilling our Industry!!!

 

[ruston]

In a nutshell it's the industry of training providers training People for non jobs. 32 applicants for every job and an unemployment rate of 12% in my area. And more industry lost soon, but they still churn them out for jobs that are'nt there.

 

[sparkyezz]

no i'm not on one of those courses, probably should have stated, im at college in my final year of a mechanical/electrical diploma.. so is that, in a nutshell, what the deskilling is? people who are paying to get on a course thinking they will be fully qual electricans at the end, but in reality are not? trying to work it out on a bigger picture.. so they then go into the trade with hardly any experience claiming to be fully compotent tradesmen, putting many time served proper sparkys out of work? how does this then affect the rate of pay for sparks? sorry if these seem like novice questions ...
TIA

 

[ruston]

Well everyone is out for a bargain so the pay/salary is negotiable , so the sharp young executive takes on a subsidized or cheaper employee knowing that his experienced men he has left will carry them, because it is not in the nature of the working man to blow his workmates in (well the vast majority).So they end up only trained in the aspect of the industry that they are in, then that industry goes................

 

[Engineer54]

no i'm not on one of those courses, probably should have stated, im at college in my final year of a mechanical/electrical diploma.. so is that, in a nutshell, what the deskilling is? people who are paying to get on a course thinking they will be fully qual electricans at the end, but in reality are not? trying to work it out on a bigger picture.. so they then go into the trade with hardly any experience claiming to be fully compotent tradesmen, putting many time served proper sparkys out of work? how does this then affect the rate of pay for sparks? sorry if these seem like novice questions ...
TIA

Good to hear that!! lol!!

It basically means, that the once high standard of training and competency attributed to a Qualified electrician, are being systematically hacked apart by training providers taking money on false promises and Part Pee providers, that except the lowest qualifications going to be classified as a ''competent electrician''!! Which in turn affects other areas of our industry. ie... Electricians being employed to cover all electrical work are being reduced so that lesser skilled guy's are being used in place of electricians to undertake containment erection modules and other jobs that were once part and parcel of an electricians role on the bigger contracts....

 

[sparkyezz]

cheers for clearing it up, i understand it more now. so it is the deskilling which is affecting the amount of jobs for electricians? is the pay not affected by this? as i remember sometime last year, electricians were protesting about pay cuts due to deskilling? maybe ive just got a different matter completely mixed up here lol.

 

[wildgoose]

De-Skilling
You can split almost any job down into a number of important but smaller elements. Once you have done this, it is easier to train people to do these specific jobs only.

Henry Ford was a great champion with this technique because he could train any group of people with basic practical skills, to build a very complicated product. You just have to break it down into smaller tasks eg: specialist wheel bolt tightener!!

I think the buzzwords today would be versatility and competence - something you can only get with experiences.

That is my understanding of what I think is meant by de-skilling!!!!

 

[sparkyezz]

would you say the trade is still worth getting into even though it is being deskilled?

 

[s.yorks.white]

i would like to know if electricians think there trade is still worth getting into also...

 

[wildgoose]

Is It Worth Geting Into?
The Electrician used to be regarded as one of the premier trades in the industry but alas this has now changed.

There needs to be some serious legistlation/regulations to stop the unskilled, incompetant people from dabling. I've said this before, but when the likes of B&Q run specials on cheap consumer units and anything else for that matter, then it encourages the 'Let Have A Go' types. The amount of dangerous non compliant work out there done by people who don't know any better is scary!!

The Gas-Safe lads are almost sorted - because Joe Public now has real difficulty buying GAS bits. Probably because Gas is dangerous and Electric is not - YEAH RIGHT!!! Our electrical gear should therefore only be accessible to purchase by qualified Electricians!!

Sermon Over

 

[Andy 7671]

Main bone of contention is 7 large companies want to leave the JIB and its payscale, set up the BESNA agreement and pay sparks at 35% less.

More installers, less sparks = less work.

Taken to its extreme as an example you would have one crew to drill holes, one crew to put in plugs, one crew to screw in saddle bases, one crew to do conduit runs etc one crew to put the saddle tops on.

 

[sparkyezz]

by installers do you mean domestic installlers? allways wonderd whats the point in domestic installers when there are electricians around... it's not really living in the modern age having 1 man do his part and the next man do his, thats a thing of the past, surely this is a step back for the industry so why are the large companies wanting out of the jib? as for the pay thats discusting... is it likely that this is going to go through? there dosen't seem to be much in the media upon the subject and this is a rather serious subject for the working class...

 

[alarm man]

the main of deskilling lies with the major players in the contacting game,the want to pay less for certain types of work,ie metal munching as its called,tray/conduit etc will be payed at a lower rate than say connecting up or testing,its not directly the Electrical Trainee fault in the contracting game but you have mates and labourers who can do conduit and tray etc,tho they side by side a Electrical Trainee are probably decent sparks without the quals,its touched a real nerve of jib sparks,ive said it before a good conduit install is a work of art,its not semi skilled work its skilled work of an installation electrcian along with swa/pyro/t&e and connecting and testing,a good spark should be able to do it all in many enviroments thats what we were trained to do,granted some will be quicker or neater or have more knowledge but you get that in any game,the Electrical Trainee will in time infest the contracting game through agencies and an acceptance of sub standard work by main contractors in the persuit of greed..

 

[Andy 7671]

by installers do you mean domestic installlers? allways wonderd whats the point in domestic installers when there are electricians around... it's not really living in the modern age having 1 man do his part and the next man do his, thats a thing of the past, surely this is a step back for the industry so why are the large companies wanting out of the jib? as for the pay thats discusting... is it likely that this is going to go through? there dosen't seem to be much in the media upon the subject and this is a rather serious subject for the working class...

Your erudite reply is too large a question for me to answer fully. Post it in the thread in the electricians unite area for a more informed response.

Nah, not DI, just installers, a grade created by the besna mob, (But as yet not ratified by CSCS cards issue) to get unskilled labour to do a sparks job on large projects. There is plenty of strikes up and down the country over this, Unite the uniom have been in court opposing Balfours breakaway stance.

There is most obviosly a media blackout, although jumping on with the students march was a big mistake in my opinion.

If you want a more in depth answer try PMing Madmac or Barleski or Flying Sausage.

Most of them recommend joining Unite the Union as a way of fighting this

 

[oldtimer]

The deskilling you are on about can be traced to a few things first of all Maggie Thatcher put a stop to training that just set off a time bomb and the demise of unions in our case self inflicted by the ETU and because other electrical skills were needed in a growing industry there was a shortage so a lot of sparks jumped ship and got into intruder/fire alarms BMS systems buildng maintenance plant equipment repair so just like the USA they started to cut up the trade ie conduit/trunking/tray installers cable gangs supervised by one spark and so on and just when we thought we could go the same way as Gas Safe the recession hit and employers think (and probably have) they can cut wages and break free ogf JIB rates also I would point to modern building practises ie throw it upand spray it white and boy I have seen some dodgy conduit installs where I would have got my butt kicked but are now passed as ok.

It would be daft to pick on our trade as this deskilling has been across the board and would point to a drop in general standards ie go in any shop buy a 2 line a 3 line a 5 line lucky dips and the person serving you has to use the till to add it up to tell you this will cost £10 plus I have this month alone have had to BEEP BEEP 3 walking phone zombies who I just about ran over as they walked out on to the road without looking whilst consulting their precious ie their mobile

 

[Geordie Spark]

It could be taken to mean using a junction box that you've bought "off the shelf" instead of making one from an empty tobacco tin - as was done in the past. :clown:

 

[alarm man]

a good view of declining standards could be seen every day,look around any old building you pass or go into,normally from the /60/70's look at the electrical installation,notice the unsheathed pyro feeding everything or the conduit/trunk and big metal clad sockets and switches,notice the neatness of the install and the fact its still going strong 60 yrs later without fault,can we say the same about todays installations..

 

[brightspark2010]

The old school work was quality, but they had the time to and everything had to be perfect nowadays all employees and clients bang on about is price and how long are you going to take usually someone who went to university and never worked the tools wins the jobs and has no clue how long some things can take, clients are ill informed about the seriousness of electrical installation. I have been doing this since i left school over 10 years ago always thought it was a great job but over the last five years standards and time for jobs have dropped it is worrying and where is it leading. Will I still be doing it in 15 years at this rate I doubt I will be able to keep up with the pace. doing things properly takes longer than alot of companies are giving time for

 

[Smudge]

preparing myself for the backlash...BUT, if an installation has been done in accordance to whatever regs applies, then the installation is sound in the eyes of the law and in turn the customer. The neatness of a job that everyone is going on about is purely down to the individuals professionalism. Thats looking at both sides of the coin before i get everyone on my back. (basically, if a customer wants to buy a car to get from A to B, would he buy a runaround for cheap, or a sportscar for ££'s)

I AM NOT FOR THE DESKILLING ARGUMENT, AND WANT THERE TO BE TIGHTER CONTROL. (just to be clear!)

As for the media blackout?? Strongly disagree. I feel this is a massive fail on the part of UNITE. If this case was brought forward to joe public via tabloids/news like the sun (suppossade working mans paper), the star etc, then there WOULD be a public backlash. It's not the case of the media blacking anything out, they love a good evil employer story, as does the public loving the workers getting a fair deal, it's simply the PR's of our representing bodies failing in their positions. Yes, i'm still a member of unite, yes, i am not happy with how they are handling it, yes, i'm angry at them for IMO poor handling of it, and lack of communication.

At my work, there are only another 4 sparks. We are all members of UNITE. When i asked them what they thought about all this, not one of them knew about it. The only reason i knew, was simply through this forum. To me, that shows poor leaderhip.

...now waiting for the abuse (most probably from UNITE representatives), although they should be warned, if they dont pull their socks up, we'll find someone else to do their jobs for less than 11 odd quid a month ;-)

 

[codger]

The trade is still worth getting into, definitely. I would encourage any young person interested in a technical career to pursue an apprenticeship in an electrical discipline. That apprenticeship can, and will, open doors for them in later life far better than going down any university/academic route. It has to be a recognised apprenticeship though. None of the diluted "Be a sparky in 6 weeks!" courses you see advertised. The apprenticeship route, for me, epitomises what getting a recognised trade should be all about.....learning the theory / practical skills at a good college, then enhancing that knowledge / skills base with hands on training onsite.....preferably through gaining good, knowledgeable training in a variety of environments, using a variety of systems.

 

[Engineer54]

The trade is still worth getting into, definitely. I would encourage any young person interested in a technical career to pursue an apprenticeship in an electrical discipline. That apprenticeship can, and will, open doors for them in later life far better than going down any university/academic route. It has to be a recognised apprenticeship though. None of the diluted "Be a sparky in 6 weeks!" courses you see advertised. The apprenticeship route, for me, epitomises what getting a recognised trade should be all about.....learning the theory / practical skills at a good college, then enhancing that knowledge / skills base with hands on training onsite.....preferably through gaining good, knowledgeable training in a variety of environments, using a variety of systems.

Since when has an electrical indentured apprenticeship, opened more doors than a university based electrical degree?? I happen to have both, and i know full well what opened the right doors for me!!

I do know what your talking about though, your just using the wrong criteria for your argument, and on that score i wholeheartedly agree with you, even if it is going to be difficult to find, such an indentured apprenticeship these day's . lol!!

 

[oldtimer]

The thing is in the 70s and the 80s it was not cool to be good at what you do and people lost respect with getting a good job done plus the current workplace is not exactly a bed of roses instead of people saying he did a good job now I will see if I can better turned into trying to undermine people to their level because they could not be ar$ed I worked with a guy who was getting dogs abuse me and another lad who I highly respect took him under our wing(s) and helped him out within months he was kissing the managers you know what and because the state of management in this country is more to do with patronising an ego rather than doing a good job and getting the respect for it he was anioted a favoured son well no sooner it happened he started talking down to me and this other lad. Now thats what is wrong with the whole trade I keep banging on about standards and people think I am an old foaggy

 

[imago]

The thing is in the 70s and the 80s it was not cool to be good at what you do and people lost respect with getting a good job done

About the same time as an apprenticeship became a YOP or YTS. Instead of youngsters getting good training at a college, and valuable experience from time served people, they became cheap labour. If they were in the scheme for a couple of years they became cheap semi-skilled labour.

That cheap semi-skilled labour was then set to working on parts of jobs, those parts would have been done collectively by a skilled tradesman but at a higher cost (and standard). Sound familiar?

The de-skilling across the engineering/trade sector began over thirty years ago. A lot of the skilled tradesmen weren't bothered though, they just took their 30 pieces of silver (redundancy) and walked. YOP and YTS morphed into other schemes and the old apprenticeships were finished never to return. What were the unions up to during the hour of their greatest need? They were too busy trying to create their own little empires and argueing about the number and duration of tea breaks to see that their membership was being systematically removed from under them.

For thirty odd years in Britain the trades have sleep walked right into this situation. A few lone voices predicted the outcome, but they were mostly ignored. So UK trades are reaping what was sown a generation ago.

I served a five year multi discipline apprenticeship. I'm now studying the same stuff as 'five week wonders' 'five day wonders' and kids serving three year 'apprenticeships'. Why am I doing that? So that I can bring myself 'up' to their level. So that I can offer qualifications which are recognised by those running/operating schemes who weren't born when I gained my 'other' qualifications.

The situation only bothers me when the hand-wringing starts, and unions start calling for us to stand together and fight the changes. Too late chaps, where were you 35 years ago when there was a chance to stop it? I'm one of those left out in the cold over those 35 years. The thing is I learned to cope without Union support and I'm doing nicely now thanks. The Unions haven't leaned to cope, and now you want my support. Well you're not getting it, but don't worry, when you're left high and dry you can adapt and overcome. Good luck with it.

 

[imago]

My apologies sparkyezz, I was so busy with my 'maoning old git' routine I didn't answer your original question.

If it's what you want to do, then absolutely get into this or any other trade. It'll be a great journey and take you to places both geographically and metaphorically that you never thought it would.

 

[alarm man]

The thing is in the 70s and the 80s it was not cool to be good at what you do and people lost respect with getting a good job done plus the current workplace is not exactly a bed of roses instead of people saying he did a good job now I will see if I can better turned into trying to undermine people to their level because they could not be ar$ed I worked with a guy who was getting dogs abuse me and another lad who I highly respect took him under our wing(s) and helped him out within months he was kissing the managers you know what and because the state of management in this country is more to do with patronising an ego rather than doing a good job and getting the respect for it he was anioted a favoured son well no sooner it happened he started talking down to me and this other lad. Now thats what is wrong with the whole trade I keep banging on about standards and people think I am an old foaggy

i cant understand any tradesman not wanting to do a good job every time,its your pride,your skills its you,you can have my wife and drink my beer,but call my workmanship then i'll get angry..

 

[oldtimer]

i cant understand any tradesman not wanting to do a good job every time,its your pride,your skills its you,you can have my wife and drink my beer,but call my workmanship then i'll get angry..

Alarm man welcome to the real world when I chucked my job the manager of the elctrical contractor shook my hand and said now I will have to deal with the idiots who will try to manage me without knowing what they are doing but then again I have got 2 years to go so good ridance and that seems to sum the whole thing have it not about changing it to get a better standard if you are running it , it is about getting rid of the old ways funny thing is they call it progress and every 10 years they will try and roll out another way but everyone will be too scared to say this is not right I did and paid a heavy price but walked away with my self respect even although some of the clowns around me were "Laffing" me out the door and I have regreted it Hell no

 

[ruston]

We are all preaching to the converted on here though , it is why the majority of you are on here. It is because you have respect and pride in your work. ( honest guv I'm not a crawler).

 

[alarm man]

Alarm man welcome to the real world when I chucked my job the manager of the elctrical contractor shook my hand and said now I will have to deal with the idiots who will try to manage me without knowing what they are doing but then again I have got 2 years to go so good ridance and that seems to sum the whole thing have it not about changing it to get a better standard if you are running it , it is about getting rid of the old ways funny thing is they call it progress and every 10 years they will try and roll out another way but everyone will be too scared to say this is not right I did and paid a heavy price but walked away with my self respect even although some of the clowns around me were "Laffing" me out the door and I have regreted it Hell no

im certainly in the real world,my job/site my work my standards,yes sometimes they go over but it saves a lot of work in the future,do it right do it once,the gaffers can moan,but when the customer moans about the install/service then its personal

 

[imago]

We are all preaching to the converted on here though , it is why the majority of you are on here. It is because you have respect and pride in your work. ( honest guv I'm not a crawler).

Their presence on here and places like it are why people shouldn't be so quick to lump all the "five week wonders" into one category. Some genuinely want to learn a trade as opposed to finding a quick route into earning a few quid. It's not their fault that there are limited ways to do that. The training providers can give an unrealistic picture, which means it's down to those that care (like the majority on this forum seem to do) to help them along the way with some real world experience, opinions and pointing out the down side.

 

[ruston]

Their presence on here and places like it are why people shouldn't be so quick to lump all the "five week wonders" into one category. Some genuinely want to learn a trade as opposed to finding a quick route into earning a few quid. It's not their fault that there are limited ways to do that. The training providers can give an unrealistic picture, which means it's down to those that care (like the majority on this forum seem to do) to help them along the way with some real world experience, opinions and pointing out the down side.

I fully agree with you , and as I have said on previous posts Peers are usually the first ones to lend helping hands . I have seen it and done it many times.
On the 2391 course I was on for instance experienced sparks gave up their own time to help some of the lads who had come onto the course, depending on it , as they thought to get registered for part P. It' s the expectations that is promised to them that is faulted.

 

[Arnold Layne]

ruston,

You are absolutely right about this, it is the expectations that are created by the course providers that are at fault, not the students who attend the courses. And of course the training providers are only trying to sell their courses, but the claims that they make 1. You will be a qualified spark 2. You will be able to get work easily, are inaccurate at best and false in the worst case.

 

[gareth jones]

definition of deskilling: (not Des killing!) two eastern europeans on my 2330 course, failed everything, but keep on sitting re-tests, it's multi-choice so eventually they'll pass and be 'fully qualified electricians' with the same qualification as me, horah mind you I can speak English, they can't as they've only been living here for 12 years!

 

[Welchyboy]

definition of deskilling: (not Des killing!) two eastern europeans on my 2330 course, failed everything, but keep on sitting re-tests, it's multi-choice so eventually they'll pass and be 'fully qualified electricians' with the same qualification as me, horah mind you I can speak English, they can't as they've only been living here for 12 years!

Thats why the jib system should be mandatory, no-one is a 'Fully qualified Electrician' after passing the 2330 on its own, a monkey could do it!

its just part of it

 

[Engineer54]

Bring back the old full scope A, B, C, 2360 tag on a 2391 and make that the minimum standard of anyone calling themselves an electrician.... lol!!

 

[vaughant]

Again agreeing with E54 that getting your basic apprenticeship then moving onto a degree opens up a myriad of opportunities that you simply won't even get a look in on otherwise.
Im overloaded with vocational quals and I have masses of work experience but I know to progress within my industry the next step is to go back to "school" in my free time and get more formal qualifications.
Im starting offshore a week today so hopefully after my probation I can get some time to do this.
As for getting into the industry I'd say absolutely yes but be aware that the new market that IMO is going to explode is the renewables sector,try and get an apprenticeship in that as that's gonna be around forever.
Same as any job,often you see the ones who go the furthest are the ones who make the most sacrifices,if that means moving away from home,missing a few football games,a few weekends with your mates etc then that's what it takes.
Its a great career but if your only goal in life is to pull a few cables 3 miles from your house,to to the same pub every night and expect to get paid £50000+ a year for it then don't bother.
its up to you how far to take your career.