Caravan supply help..

[brianmoooore]

Youngest daughter has decided to return to the nest after several years of living in the big city, now that she is permitted to work from home most of the time. She's bought herself a mobile home as an office, and wants to set it up at the far end of one of our gardens/orchard.
I have to connect the electrics up to it, and this is where I need help. Not with the 230V stuff - no problem with that, but it's this data/internet stuff where my knowledge is severely lacking.
Current set up is fibre to property, giving a speed of about 60Mbps, into a BT modem, into a BT Wi-Fi router, which is in a property under renovation, so the Wi-Fi output isn't normally used. There are three yellow RJ45 sockets on the back of this router, one connected by about 15m of Cat5E to a Wi-Fi router in my house,, one connected to a POI injector, then about 10m of Cat5E to an outside Wi-Fi router that provides coverage to three holiday cottages, and one socket currently unused.
There is a trench being dug from the electricity source to the caravan, which is about 80m, and there is an internal route, through various roof spaces and sheds, from the BT router to the start of the trench, which is about 65m, so a total of about 145m.
The main question is, will the signal travel along this length of Cat5E or Cat6 without deterioration and loss of speed? Daughter's work requires a reliable and decent speed of internet connection, so it has to work well.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Cat5e twisted pair cable is newer and supports faster data transmission rates than Cat5.​

It achieves this by reducing the interference between cables making Cat5e the preferred cable of the network industry.

With it, you can connect your computer, networking equipment, and VoIP devices to a high-speed network.

 

[littlespark]

They run CAT5 for much longer lengths through factories, schools, office blocks etc. I don’t think it will be a huge problem.


The location of the caravan isn’t near a telegraph pole, or BT green box?
Might be an option for her to get her own line put in?

 

[timhoward]

The total length will probably work but it does exceed max length recommendations for a single length of cat5e or cat6.
The simplest solution would be if you could add a network switch so neither run is more than 100m.
The expensive ‘correct’ way would be 2 fiber media converters (£50 for pair) and a pre terminated 200m fiber cable (£200 ish).

 

[UNG]

The total length will probably work but it does exceed max length recommendations for a single length of cat5e or cat6.
The simplest solution would be if you could add a network switch so neither run is more than 100m.
The expensive ‘correct’ way would be 2 fiber media converters (£50 for pair) and a pre terminated 200m fiber cable (£200 ish).

It's not an easy task installing pre terminated fiber especially in an underground duct and any holes have to be made a lot bigger to pass the terminated through, I agree that the fiber option would be the best option if you can terminate it after installation

As an alternative I would look at using a POE powered Cat5e or Cat6 extender placed just before it goes underground or if there is a good line of sight a point to point wireless link could be another option

 

[brianmoooore]

The location of the caravan isn’t near a telegraph pole, or BT green box?
Might be an option for her to get her own line put in?

Over a 100m to the nearest pole, and about 2 miles to the nearest BT box, so I think this ones a non starter. There's also the small point that she gets free internet as part of her job, which I'd get the benefit of as well on a shared supply. Her employer is BT, although she actually works for the Police.

The simplest solution would be if you could add a network switch so neither run is more than 100m.
The expensive ‘correct’ way would be 2 fiber media converters (£50 for pair) and a pre terminated 200m fiber cable (£200 ish).

Getting too technical for my knowledge now! What's a network switch, and how does it help?
I was wondering if there's a fibre optic solution. I presume the stuff is impossible to terminate without very expensive equipment, so pre terminated lengths are available with plugs fitted (similar to the optical audio lead on the TV?)
80m of Cat6 SWA is about £180 or so, plus the 65m of 'ordinary' Cat6, so not a great deal of difference in the cost of the cable, although I suppose the fibre would need a duct, and then there's the convertors.

It's not an easy task installing pre terminated fiber especially in an underground duct and any holes have to be made a lot bigger to pass the terminated through, I agree that the fiber option would be the best option if you can terminate it after installation

As an alternative I would look at using a POE powered Cat5e or Cat6 extender placed just before it goes underground or if there is a good line of sight a point to point wireless link could be another option

Biggest potential problem with the fibre is that if it gets damaged in any way, I suppose it's a total write off.
Any links as to where to purchase the fibre and the convertors, please?
There's power available where the overground cable joins to the underground - it's right by the split phase incoming supply, so anything powered to 'boost' the signal is a possibility here. Doesn't need to be POE.
What's the practical difference between Cat5E and Cat6? Is performance likely to be noticeably better with the latter?
Wireless link is another possibility - distance would be about 70m, but there are a few trees that would need surgery. That's the way I'd be going, if there wasn't an easy, but long, overground and underground route available.

 

[DefyG]

Is a microwave transmitter/receiver possible [line of sight]?
We've installed a couple tplink 17km range with good effect.
Certainly more cost effective than running a trench for a cable.
www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/solution/outdoor-wifi/

 

[brianmoooore]

Few bits of tree in the way for line of sight. Could be dealt with if absolutely necessary.
Trench already exists (or will do, when it's finished*) for SWA electricity cable and 20mm polythene water pipe.

*Been managing about 3m/hour. 6" of topsoil, then stony clay that's nearly as hard as concrete.

 

[timhoward]

Getting too technical for my knowledge now! What's a network switch, and how does it help?

It's what you use to connect multiple ethernet (cat5/6) devices together onto the same network. It helps because the distance measurement starts again at this point so ti can sit in the middle of two long runs.
Example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-TL-SG105S-Ethernet-Lifetime-Warranty/dp/B07HP5TN4S

I was wondering if there's a fibre optic solution. I presume the stuff is impossible to terminate without very expensive equipment, so pre terminated lengths are available with plugs fitted

Yes, pre-terminated is available. As mentioned above it makes it harder to draw.
Example - ( not long enough for you)

100m Fibre Optic Patch Lead OM3 LC to LC Connectors - from LINDY UK

100m Fibre Optic Patch Lead OM3 LC to LC Connectors Cables & Adapters 100m (328.41ft), Pro AV Fibre Optic Cable Range, Turquoise, OM3, LC Male to LC Male, Cable, LSZH (Low Smoke Zero Halogen), LC TO LC, Multimode, OM3 (50/125) @ LINDY. The UKs leading HDMI Cable, USB Cable and FireWire Cable...

www.lindy.co.uk

To match the media converter I linked to below you are looking for LC pre-terminated fiber. LC is the connector type.

Biggest potential problem with the fibre is that if it gets damaged in any way, I suppose it's a total write off.

Yep. Consider over-size ducting with a draw line left in.

Any links as to where to purchase the fibre and the convertors, please?

Here is an example that is ready to go.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B65K9L9

Make sure the termination style matches the fiber termination style. "LC" in this case.

Note that some have an empty SFP port ready to accept an adaptor to suit the fiber termination style.
These are best avoided. Here is an example to avoid:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B69K424

Note the big hole where it says SFP

There's power available where the overground cable joins to the underground - it's right by the split phase incoming supply, so anything powered to 'boost' the signal is a possibility here.

Back to network switch, as above.

What's the practical difference between Cat5E and Cat6

For your application, nothing, as you won't be running at the 10gbps that Cat6 allows.

Line of sight is simplest but can be rather expensive.

Hope that helps.
Tim

 

[pc1966]

Getting too technical for my knowledge now! What's a network switch, and how does it help?

A switch basically acts as a data relay, it is slightly more complicated in that it "learns" of what is on each port so data is routed from device to device and not simple echoed out to everyone.

Here it is not the switching aspect that helps, but that it decodes the signal on the cables and then re-encodes it for onward transmission so you can get a longer distance.

But it needs power.

If it were me I would look at putting in some fibre as it is not too expenaive and gives you unlimited bandwidth for the future. You might only be getting 60Mbit from BT or whatever now but that might go up and/or you might end up with some storage for video, etc, in the home your daughter wants to access.

 

[pc1966]

There are companies that will make up leads as you need, they might be worth a call for some advice. For example:

Universal Networks

Armoured Fibre Patch Cables provide added protection against damage & take up far less space than a standard patch cable. OS1. Made to order.

www.universalnetworks.co.uk

 

[pc1966]

More recent fibre adaptors use a single fibre core for both ways, one end using one "colour" of light for TX and another for RX, and the other end the opposite. You can get universal SFP that adapt to either end, but the cheaper options mean you have to get an 'A' and a 'B' type SFP so they are able to talk to each other. For example the TP-LINK TL-SM321A & TL-SM321B

 

[pc1966]

Here is an example that is ready to go.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07B65K9L9

Make sure the termination style matches the fiber termination style. "LC" in this case.

That looks like a good choice, and it uses a single fibre so you might be able to get a cheaper cable to match, either off the shelf or made up as needed.

 

[DPG]

I'd also go with fibre. As mentioned above, you will probably end up going above 60MB at some point, especially if you are sharing it between your house, hlliday cottages and a home office.

Shouldn't be a problem if you have fibre to the property; we get close to 70MB with fibre to the cabinet! Having said that, you are probably limited by the contract you are on rather than any actual limitations, so I would think you could ask them for a faster rate.

 

[pc1966]

Another minor advantage of fibre, though possibly not a big issue for you, is it is practically immune to interference or damage from any external non-physical events such as RF or lightning. For between-building connections you get excellent lightning resistance, where as typical Ethernet is, I think, 1.5kV rated (not sure about PoE survival limits) which is not bad but easy to exceed with a big layout and nearby strike.

You can get SPD units for Ethernet but if looking at that and not needing PoE then fibre is a better solution all round.

 

[brianmoooore]

you are probably limited by the contract you are on rather than any actual limitations, so I would think you could ask them for a faster rate.

The BT contract is the daughter's. BT is her employer (although she work's for the Police), and the broadband comes free with the job. I've no idea what limitations might be in place, but I'll mention it to her.
You've all given me plenty of options to think about. Seems that fibre is good, but cable, with a network switch near the middle, will also work.
One problem with a single piece of pre terminated fibre is that it will have to pass through two 600mm thick solid stone boundary walls between properties. These walls have 20mm round PVC conduit through them that was fitted when the renovations were done, and have Cat5E, bell wire, and 2 pair 'phone cable passing through them. Plenty of room for more Cat5E or 6, but those optical plugs are going to be a problem.
45m of Cat5E/6 followed by 100m of fibre is possible, or is that pointless?
As far as the trench is concerned (still another 30m to dig), I've ordered some green 65mm outside/50mm inside smooth bored twinwall duct to go in with the SWA and 20mm water pipe, so that kicks the final decision down the road for a week or two.
10mm2 3C for the SWA turns out to be just too small. Considered 6mm2 5C doubled up, which is just adequate, but will probably go with 16mm2 3C and have done with it. Costs another £100 on top of the 6mm2, but that's minor compared to what the whole project is costing.

 

[UNG]

One problem with a single piece of pre terminated fibre is that it will have to pass through two 600mm thick solid stone boundary walls between properties. These walls have 20mm round PVC conduit through them that was fitted when the renovations were done, and have Cat5E, bell wire, and 2 pair 'phone cable passing through them. Plenty of room for more Cat5E or 6, but those optical plugs are going to be a problem.
45m of Cat5E/6 followed by 100m of fibre is possible, or is that pointless?

There are plenty of cheap fibre termination kits out there with good reviews so not beyond a DIY termination job with the wealth of knowledge on youtube for an experienced electrician IMO based my experience.
Personally I taught myself fibre termination and polishing from books and videos ( pre youtube ) about 25 - 30 years ago although cheap termination kits were not available back then and the kit I still have cost close to £1000 but paid for itself after 2 - 3 jobs when I was quoted just over £500 to terminate 2 fibre cores (4 ends) for one job I looked into the options and decided I could do it myself with the right kit. These days the fibre terminations are a lot different and some don't even need polishing after termination. Even buying a few extra terminations to practice with it's a good option to look at and makes it easier to do the full run in fibre

 

[pc1966]

If you get the "single fibre" style of unit then a single / simplex LC type of connector will fit through something like a 10-12mm hole, though really for protection you should put it in a bit of tube, etc, and feed it through with any other cables, etc, that are going in at the same time.

Having some cat5/6 cable then the rest in fibre is not pointless, while you could do the rest in copper the fibre still has the electrical isolation aspect but it means you need the powered switch at the point, going all-fibre avoids the need for some network kit hidden in an outdoor box or whatever.

@UNG suggestion of getting the tools to do it is maybe not worth while for just one cable, but you might find someone who would do it for you ate a sane price if asking around or you might find local work you could charge for to make it pay.

 

[UNG]

@UNG suggestion of getting the tools to do it is maybe not worth while for just one cable, but you might find someone who would do it for you ate a sane price if asking around or you might find local work you could charge for to make it pay.

When I said cheap I meant cheap Optical Fiber Tool Kit Cold Connection tool Optical Fiber Stripping Cleaver for SUMITOMO with 36000 Cleaves and Fiber Optic Drop Cable Fiber Stripper CFS-2 Double Port Hole - - Amazon.com - https://www.amazon.com/Optical-Connection-Stripping-SUMITOMO-Stripper/dp/B01GLRWXDC/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=Fiber+Termination+Kit&qid=1661238435&sr=8-6
It has good reviews and I wouldn't dismiss it as not a viable option

When I spent £1000 25 - 30 years ago it was a totally different market with a lot of voodoo about fibre termination around, the tooling, terminations and termination methods have changed a lot over the years making home termination a lot easier and more viable now.

 

[pc1966]

When I said cheap I meant cheap

When I spent £1000 25 - 30 years ago it was a totally different market with a lot of voodoo about fibre termination around, the tooling, terminations and termination methods have changed a lot over the years making home termination a lot easier and more viable now.

That is cheap, I was thinking of these sort of machines:

Fusion Splicers

Fusion Splicers

www.fibrefox.co.uk

Might be a case of not trying monomode fibre with the cheaper kits though in terms of alignment, etc, but worth some experimenting with a short fibre as 1m (test) or 150m (final) of fibre won't make much difference to a SFP combination that can do 2-10km!