Change in the Law regarding RCDs in Rental Properties

[Spazz]

This is where the rental property licence will come in - same as gas - who enforces that - the LAPP do!
At the moment the nearly all LAPP request copies of all Gas Certs so wait for this to become law inline with gas then then the LAPP can request these as well - until such time nothing can be enforced!

 

[UNG]

If you forward all EDNs to LAPP they dont contact you unless you request it! It takes less than 2 mins!

You say if you want to be out of work - this is what Gas does and they are still in work!

Plus how many of these landlords actually act on your recommendations - some but not all - the ones who act on your recommendations do you really need to fill in a EDN - NO!
Only those who dont act on your recommendations within a set time need to be reported to LAPP.

Like I said they problem is us!

Plus in regards the untrained are not a problem - yes they take work off us - but thats our personal problem!
When they do it right its fine - when they do it wrong you issue a EDN or advisory and that gets reported to LAPP - same thing!

The bigger problem is that some of us are willing to sign off work that we have not done! or seen done!

In Gas the home owner can do his own work and report it to the LABC - SAME AS WITH ELECTRIC!

The only difference is that the gas engineers dont stand by and allow dangerous installs to remain in houses - some of us do because we dont want the agro, because we dont want to fill in a form for free. THE PROBLEM IS OUR ATTITUDE!

Yes in an ideal world only trained and licensed persons will do the work - those who blame the system should be looking at themselves first!

Would you like to qualify your comment as I think the problem is your social crusade I have no intention of following your Faceache Twoddle I certainly won't be contacting my MP other than to reduce the red tape and hoops I have to jump through to carry on my trade. I find it abhorrant that you continue to blame myself and others on here and in the wider world with your comment that "the problem is us" when the problem is these quick narrow course training providers backed by incompetent scams

The problem is the EICR is like an MOT all opinions and findings are those of the inspector installations can be wired to possibly any one of 4 different editions of regs with a number of amendments all were compliant and probably still are compliant to the regs they are wired to. Are you suggesting that all installations should be wired and updated to the latest regs because they may be dangerous if they are not

IMO the EDN is the worst piece of paper ever produced and seems to be issued at times for no good reason by lesser experienced sparks other than the installation didn't comply with the 17th edition and they had no knowledge of past regs

 

[Spazz]

Would you like to qualify your comment as I think the problem is your social crusade I have no intention of following your Faceache Twoddle I certainly won't be contacting my MP other than to reduce the red tape and hoops I have to jump through to carry on my trade. I find it abhorrant that you continue to blame myself and others on here and in the wider world with your comment that "the problem is us" when the problem is these quick narrow course training providers backed by incompetent scams

The problem is the EICR is like an MOT all opinions and findings are those of the inspector installations can be wired to possibly any one of 4 different editions of regs with a number of amendments all were compliant and probably still are compliant to the regs they are wired to. Are you suggesting that all installations should be wired and updated to the latest regs because they may be dangerous if they are not

IMO the EDN is the worst piece of paper ever produced and seems to be issued at times for no good reason by lesser experienced sparks other than the installation didn't comply with the 17th edition and they had no knowledge of past regs

You have completely got the wrong end of the stick!

The problem is us - purely because we are on here having a moan about the Part P. Your problem is not with Part P - your problem is with that European Law thats states that anyone can carry out any work themselves without having to get a skilled trade in to do it! Thats the problem which I agree! - That cant be changed as it effects 27 different countries

Again your having a moan about the EDN - that bit of paper is not the worst thing - the problem is that less experienced sparks dont know how to use it! - again Us - word us as in all sparks in UK - some know how to use this and some dont!

Electrical Regs apply to everything that we install - I am not looking at them at all!
All I am looking at tis rental properties - the landlord has a duty to provide and maintain a safe working electrical system that wont cause harm to their tenants!
A fault is an unplanned so to ensure that the landlord can comply with the law the installation must be tested and isolate when a fault occurs

The Landlord has to provide a safe system even if a fault occurs! How can said landlord maintain a safe system if the electric is still on and a fault has occurred - THEY CANT! - they are breaking the law then!

This addition with shock protection (RCD/RCBO/any others which are or come on the market) and EICRs is to clearly state what the landlord has to do to comply with the above legal requirement.
The problem is Law is not as straight forward as it should be - there are so many loops and holes which can be picked at - this is one of them!

In regards to the problem is us - yes it is - it is our attitude that we cant do work that we are not being paid for!

Law cant be enforced unless someone with the training and equipment (for electrical) is available to report it - believe it or not these EHP are not trained nor do they have the equipment to carry out everything they have to enforce. plus if they did they would be doing EICRs themselves! - which Im sure you would all moan about!

So they relay on a skilled trade to identify these problems so they can report them. Nothing to do with 17th Regs or what ever! If an install is dangerous then we have a duty of care to do something about it (and that is Law!) so those of us who walk away from a dangerous install without doing anything about it then they are breaking the law!

Imagine you saw a bear mains cable hanging free - the home owner would not let you fix it - you didn't issue a EDN because your not paid to do it - and yo have not reported it - if someone comes into contact with that and is killed and someone proved that you saw it - i.e. you quoted for it - you would have to explain to the wigs why you didn't fulfill your legal requirement of the Duty of Care (HASWA 1974) - GOOD LUCK!

If the licencing comes into force like it has in Scotland then that will enforce it - like what happens with Gas - then we wont have to report it - it will be down to the homeowner (landlord) to report it with producing the EICR. That EICR then becomes a MOT - which its not at the moment - its an advisory - nothing more!

A MOT tells the car owner what they must do to comply with the law (in regards to cars) - The EICR does not! - The EICR is like a Pre-MOT - no legal requirement at all!
There needs to be a MOT for Electrics which there is not at the moment!

 

[Spazz]

I am not having a dig at anyone

Just think of it this way - you install a new CU - but instead of installing a 17th Ed board you install a BS3036 - your still within the law but you have not followed your recommendations that are set down by BS7671 - you will be found guilty on the basis this the courts will use the BS7671
Your only defense is: at the time I left the property that install was safe - you might be lucky if the fault was a result of someone putting a nail through the wire - hence killing the person - it was safe but the person affected the safety - getting you off.

Exactly the same as if you install a 17th Ed CU and the home owner opened it up and touched the main supply cable - not your fault - its theirs! - Saving your A***

 

[spark 68]

If the licencing comes into force like it has in Scotland then that will enforce it - like what happens with Gas - then we wont have to report it - it will be down to the homeowner (landlord) to report it with producing the EICR. That EICR then becomes a MOT - which its not at the moment - its an advisory - nothing more!

That is broadly what I was suggesting in post #94.

The rules for this already exist, the LABC or council could demand to see the EICR and enforce the remedial work if required, if they so choose.
They don't do this normally, except in a couple of regeneration schemes in run down areas, and what is the betting they only do this if there is some financial benefit to themselves ?, ie. a Government grant from central Government.

The parts of existing laws that need to be enforced correctly should put more legal onus on the landlord, after all they are getting rent on a weekly basis.

This should have nothing to do with us, except to carry out the work within our usual legal framework (within BS7671, building regs etc.).

Nicholas, have a look at title of this thread again, how can you change the regs/law for just rental properties ?, I feel that this will lead to unintended consequences, as we all know the powers that be could not organise a party in a brewery.

As UNG said, we are not here to police an already crap system.

Edit: They cannot even implement the existing powers correctly, what makes you think new laws would fair any better.

 

[Spazz]

Spark this is not the case - the LABC have nothing to do with anything after its been signed off. I thought they did but they dont. All powers go over the the Public Protection/Housing/Environmental Health Department (all depends whic the council call it).
They can request to see the EICR but they cant demand to see it as there is no legal requirement to have one done (unless your a HMO). Same as the Gas.

Only the court can demand a EICR to be completed!


The Housing Act applies to rental properties under the landlord & Tenant Regulations - this is where this will need to be put in - same as with HMOs.

Im not saying we are the police - what I am saying is we have the same rights and responsibilities as Gas Safe Engineers but we dont use them. The only difference between us and Gas is that there is a legal requirement for Gas to be inspected evey year in rental properties.

Everyone says that it wont work because its not policed/reinforced but it works with Gas - there is no difference apart from the law with gas and lack of a law with electric. They need to be put together.

Same as there is a law to include a cut off for gas if there is a fire detected - same thing as a RCD - cuts off the electric when a fault is detected.

 

[Spazz]

For those who are not in Gas - the regulation (Part of the Housing Act) The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 is what states that Gas Safety Certificates must be carried out - this would have to be done for Electrical.

Check this Reg out and you will see that it can easily be changed into Electrical

 

[spark 68]

Nicholas,

Don't get me wrong, Iam not having a go or anything.

However, I still think that if anything, laws or otherwise need changing, then it should be to the licensing model for landlords, and should be just that, and I still maintain this has nothing to do with us as electricians except for any work/alterations, building regs, EICR's etc. which has enough rules and regs as it is, or don't you think we are legislated enough as electricians already?

There are various laws already in place, duty of care for tenants, all reasonable precautions (131 BGB) etc. (Iam not a lawyer), don't you find it strange that councils and local authorities can find legislation for the most petty of reasons when it suits them ?, and also ignore other arguably more important things when it suits them ?

Good luck with your crusade

 

[oldtimer]

I hate to be negitive but in this current economical climate the word is out not to hike up regulations but to tear some down so me thinks the treading of water will take place the problem we have is that the lawmakers cosy relationship with the people who drive the regulations I have been around long enough to see how it operates a bit like a MP on a bank commitee then 3 months after they loose their seat they get a new one on the bank board in other words a bit like a MOD cival servant

 

[Spazz]

I fully agree spark. Yes the licencing needs to come in - no questions asked!
The problem is that unless the mandatory EICR comes in as well then the licencing cant enforce anything to do with electrics at all!
The Shock Protection is an added bonus for those tenants whos landlords are so far up their on a*** who refuse to fit them and feel that the old BS3036 CU is more than enough to comply with the law which its not.

How often is everyone here going into rental properties and its more than clear that the landlord does not care about the safety of his tenants - as long as his money comes in thats all he cares about!

All I said about our duties is that at present we are the only ones who can identify problems and we should if needed report them - and only if we feel that the landlord in question really does not care about the safety of his tenants.

Im not saying by any means report every little thing - no way on this earth!

I am only talking about things like life threatening situations - bear cables where children/young adults can come into contact with them.

Sorry I would not think twice about that - I could not sleep at night knowing that if I had reported it that child could still be alive now! And Im sure you all are the same!

 

[Geoffsd]

I think it should be remembered that landlords are not killing off vast hoards of their tenants and unless you can provide irrefutable statistics on the actual number of people killed and injured I'm afraid your crusade seems like a personal vendetta against anyone who lets properties.

Do you have a disproportionate number of Rachmans in your local area?

Just campaigning for the fitting of RCDs is a waste of time.


PS - What's wrong with 3036s? After all, they are fail-safe, unlike RCDs.

 

[Spazz]

Personal vendetta against anyone who lets properties - how can you say this when my grandfather owns 15 properties that he lets out.
This is completely the opposite! This is purely to assist landlords to maintain a safe property to let.

Stats for rental properties is not available as no-one has collected these.

Geoffsd - reread the whole thread! I am looking at 2 main changes!
1. Shock Protection in all rental houses
2. EICRs every 5 years in rental properties (or every year)

Part of this is then to ensure bonding is in place as well but that is under the both.

 

[Geoffsd]

Personal vendetta against anyone who lets properties - how can you say this when my grandfather owns 15 properties that he lets out.

Either I missed that or this is the first mention of it.

How many has he killed? (No need to answer)

This is completely the opposite! This is purely to assist landlords to maintain a safe property to let.

Assist? As already said, there are laws to do this but they are not enforced.
Good landlords don't need it. Bad ones won't take any notice.

Britain is very good at making laws and not enforcing them.
When something goes wrong it is then stated that someone was acting illegally.

Stats for rental properties is not available as no-one has collected these.

Do you not think they would be if it were a problem?

Geoffsd - reread the whole thread! I am looking at 2 main changes!

Oh. No.

1. Shock Protection in all rental houses

There already is a lot.

2. EICRs every 5 years in rental properties (or every year)

What about P.A.T. as well which, if you think about it, is more related to the Gas Safety Check.

It is an appliance check with an integral test to ensure the permanent installation is not leaking.

Part of this is then to ensure bonding is in place as well but that is under the both.

I don't understand why you emphasize particular items.

Why did the original question not read 'Change the law requiring EICRs in Rental Properties'.

 

[Spazz]

There is NO law to state that EICRs must be carried out! - Only recommendations
There is NO law that shock protection must be installed! - Only recommendations
Laws to protect Landlords - the main ones like Gas Safety is enforced very well! the other main one is the landlord must supply and maintain a good condition property - same as electric supplies - very blunt!

With regards to PAT Testing honestly how many houses have appliances in them? yes some but not all! The tenant supplies the appliances so its down to them to make sure they are safe - not the landlord!
Only the cooker usually (if electric) is supplied by the landlord!

Also think about it - if a property has an RCD installed does it really matter if the appliances are tested? - NO - any faults that occur with the appliances the RCD will pick it up.

I cant claim the idea for changing the law in regards to EICRs because ESC started this a few years back! but only with a press release!

The Laws about Gas Safety is managed very well by the LA. When and only when the licencing comes into force they will be able to fully enforce gas and electric (if EICRs become law!)

The main reason for RCDs, is apart from shock protection they will reduce the number of fires in properties started by electrical installations and supplies - how - by tripping before a fire starts!

In regards to stats these are impossible to get for rental properties! Everyone who is electrocuted goes to Hospital (not counting minor shocks), the hospitals notify the HSE and the HSE produce the stats.
Hospitals DONT care if the patient is renting or owning the property they live in!

 

[spark 68]

Geoffsd - are you an electrician because your really not acting like one!
Quite clearly you dont understand the principle of safe installations and what is law already!

Now, Now, Nicholas,
You are barely out of nappies yourself from what I have read of your other posts, apologise to Geoff and retract that remark please, let's keep this civil.

 

[Spazz]

Geoffsd - sorry but you really annoyed me when you clearly dint understand the basics of why RCDs are important and why EICRs are important!
It appears that you are just looking for an argument!

Just to let all know what I am now doing:
I have emailed all councils in Wales and gotten over 50% of them back - all supporting this.
I am now emailing all 27 councils and their Borough Councils to get their view on this.

 

[Geoffsd]

Thank you spark 68.

Nicholas, there are so many flaws, inaccuracies and irrelevancies in your last post I shall let everyone else make their own deductions.

Edit - second last post now.

 

[Spazz]

You say there are flaws but when I PM you asking you to explain them you dont respond!

Can you please state what flaws and if there are already laws which are doing what I am trying to do please state the law as I have missed them so have all the county councils that have responded to me along with all on here who support this!

 

[Geoffsd]

I have been asked to respond.

There is NO law to state that EICRs must be carried out! - Only recommendations
There is NO law that shock protection must be installed! - Only recommendations

The law states that a landlord has a duty of care to ensure that the electrical installation is safe.

I do not object to a law requiring EICRs to be introduced although you started the thread by requiring RCDs to be fitted. This would require CU changes and would not happen.

Also, the figures you quote are hugely more than any I have previously read since Part P was first suggested.

However, the situation would arise, as is now the case where letting agents demand an electrical report, disreputable landlords will hire disreputable electricians who will walk round and then sign a piece of paper for fifty pounds.

Laws to protect Landlords - the main ones like Gas Safety is enforced very well! the other main one is the landlord must supply and maintain a good condition property - same as electric supplies - very blunt!

Laws are not to protect landlords.

With regards to PAT Testing honestly how many houses have appliances in them? yes some but not all!The tenant supplies the appliances so its down to them to make sure they are safe - not the landlord!Only the cooker usually (if electric) is supplied by the landlord!

All of them have appliances. Cooker, boiler, fires, even if unfurnished.
Furnished properties have the same number as you do.

You did not seem to grasp my point about the Gas Safety Check being an appliance check.
It does not have the same number of tests and measurements and disruption that an EICR would.

Also think about it - if a property has an RCD installed does it really matter if the appliances are tested? - NO - any faults that occur with the appliances the RCD will pick it up.

Well, yes it does matter.

An RCD is only addition protection for the electrical installation.
Surely, you are not suggesting that faulty appliances would be acceptable as long as an RCD was present.
RCDs are not infallible. They are not a magic solution to all our problems.

I cant claim the idea for changing the law in regards to EICRs because ESC started this a few years back! but only with a press release!

That would be to judge if others thought it important.
Perhaps they got told to bury it by larger landlords than your Grandfather.

The Laws about Gas Safety is managed very well by the LA. When and only when the licencing comes into force they will be able to fully enforce gas and electric (if EICRs become law!)

I cannot argue that point but I do not think the LA 'check up'.
More likely just prosecute when the occasion arises.

The main reason for RCDs, is apart from shock protection they will reduce the number of fires in properties started by electrical installations and supplies - how - by tripping before a fire starts!

RCDs will help should a person touch a live conductor BUT RCDs do not recognise overcurrent so are unlikely to help against fires.
The fuse/MCB will do this.

Is this a misunderstanding leading you to believe that fuses are not as safe as MCBs.
I note you did not respond to my query regarding 3036s.

In regards to stats these are impossible to get for rental properties! Everyone who is electrocuted goes to Hospital (not counting minor shocks), the hospitals notify the HSE and the HSE produce the stats.
Hospitals DONT care if the patient is renting or owning the property they live in!

Perhaps, but if it became apparent that large numbers of people who rented were being injured by faulty electricals something would soon be done. I would think that the hospital staff DO care - that's what they DO do.


Just to add - Sometimes the best ideas, for some reason, do not work in the real world.

 

[Spazz]

I agree with your comments!

I have been asked to respond.

The law states that a landlord has a duty of care to ensure that the electrical installation is safe. - This is a blanket reg any noone knows what the have to do - nor do the EHPs

I do not object to a law requiring EICRs to be introduced although you started the thread by requiring RCDs to be fitted. This would require CU changes and would not happen. -The problem with the older CUs is that most of them dont have bonding in place. An RCD is not notifiable therefore dos not require an electrician. even though an electrician would be a way better option (I dont agree with landords doing their own work but it happens). A CU change costs £300 - £450 - thats 1 months rent!

Also, the figures you quote are hugely more than any I have previously read since Part P was first suggested. - I made a mistake in the OP - it was corrected later on in the thread

However, the situation would arise, as is now the case where letting agents demand an electrical report, disreputable landlords will hire disreputable electricians who will walk round and then sign a piece of paper for fifty pounds. - Agents or LAs cant demand EICRs they can only request them - if they demand one then the landlord (at present) will have a case against them in court - recent case about this in NewPort Gwent - LA lost!

Laws are not to protect landlords. - If there where not laws then more people will be killed - Landlords think they are a pain but they do protect them!

All of them have appliances. Cooker, boiler, fires, even if unfurnished. - Gas appliances are inspected with the gas safety cert - like I said before if the property has a RCD installed then even if the appliance goes faulty the RCD will protect it
Furnished properties have the same number as you do.

You did not seem to grasp my point about the Gas Safety Check being an appliance check. -I fully understand this
It does not have the same number of tests and measurements and disruption that an EICR would. -Electric is more complicated than gas - more of a reason to have it tested more often!

Well, yes it does matter. - As below

An RCD is only addition protection for the electrical installation. - RCD is additional protection but it is also the only device that will stop an electric shock and fire starting! Bonding does not do this!
Surely, you are not suggesting that faulty appliances would be acceptable as long as an RCD was present. - Faulty appliances would not allow the RCD to stay connected - it would keep triping - insulation goes on appliance then the RCD will trip!
RCDs are not infallible. They are not a magic solution to all our problems. - RCDs are only problematic when you have a faulty installation. A good installation wont trip the RCD! If the RCD trips then your losing the current to something else or earth - RCD is doing its job 100%

That would be to judge if others thought it important.
Perhaps they got told to bury it by larger landlords than your Grandfather. - They never approached parliament about it - their biggest problem was they put it in the papers and that was it -no reasons behind it!

I cannot argue that point but I do not think the LA 'check up'.
More likely just prosecute when the occasion arises. - Classic example of who does this protect - the landlord - landlord did their job - LA failed - whos to blame - LA. This is all down to training of LA

RCDs will help should a person touch a live conductor BUT RCDs do not recognise overcurrent so are unlikely to help against fires.
The fuse/MCB will do this. - RCDs do look for overcurrent! (not designed to but they do) - 63A - 30mA. They are looking for both! If a fire starts a short to earth normally happens when the MCB does not trip - to high of resistance - the RCD will pick this up! Like you said the MCB is in charge of overcurrent - but clearly over-current is not the main cause of fire - or there would not be fires from electrical.

Is this a misunderstanding leading you to believe that fuses are not as safe as MCBs.
I note you did not respond to my query regarding BS3036s. - Big problem with BS3036 - fuse cable can be replaced with 2.5 cable - this will not blow! - meaning they have the potential to be very dangerous!

Perhaps, but if it became apparent that large numbers of people who rented were being injured by faulty electricals something would soon be done. I would think that the hospital staff DO care - that's what they DO do.
- I used to work for Welsh Ambulance Service until I bust my back - they dont care where the person comes from - their priority is to care about the person not their house! Only way to look at how many are in rentals is to look at how many landlords are jailed!

Just to add - Sometimes the best ideas, for some reason, do not work in the real world.

-You never know till you try it! If noone tried electric then we would not have it now! Sometimes you have to go with your gut and sometimes they payoff! - Think about it - why did the law get passed about gas safety checks when less people where killed from CO poisoning compared to Electric - because someone in the Fire Brigade brought it to the attention of Parliament and it got passed

 

[Geoffsd]

The law states that a landlord has a duty of care to ensure that the electrical installation is safe. - This is a blanket reg any noone knows what the have to do - nor do the EHPs
If not complying with 7671 or equivalent it can be deemed unsafe.

I do not object to a law requiring EICRs to be introduced although you started the thread by requiring RCDs to be fitted. This would require CU changes and would not happen. -The problem with the older CUs is that most of them dont have bonding in place.
Yes they do.
An RCD is not notifiable therefore dos not require an electrician
I would say it was. Where in schedule 4 does it allow this.
even though an electrician would be a way better option (I dont agree with landords doing their own work but it happens). A CU change costs £300 - £450 - thats 1 months rent!
Agree.
Also, the figures you quote are hugely more than any I have previously read since Part P was first suggested. - I made a mistake in the OP - it was corrected later on in the thread
Ok.
However, the situation would arise, as is now the case where letting agents demand an electrical report, disreputable landlords will hire disreputable electricians who will walk round and then sign a piece of paper for fifty pounds. - Agents or LAs cant demand EICRs they can only request them - if they demand one then the landlord (at present) will have a case against them in court - recent case about this in NewPort Gwent - LA lost!
Perhaps but I had heard some letting agents won't handle the property without.
Laws are not to protect landlords. - If there where not laws then more people will be killed - Landlords think they are a pain but they do protect them!
No they don't.
All of them have appliances. Cooker, boiler, fires, even if unfurnished. - Gas appliances are inspected with the gas safety cert - like I said before if the property has a RCD installed then even if the appliance goes faulty the RCD will protect it
It may but that is no excuse for faulty appliances.
I'm surprised you think this a reasonable argument.
Furnished properties have the same number as you do.

You did not seem to grasp my point about the Gas Safety Check being an appliance check. -I fully understand this
It does not have the same number of tests and measurements and disruption that an EICR would. -Electric is more complicated than gas - more of a reason to have it tested more often!.
I repeat. I would not be against an EICR requirement becoming law but that was not the original proposal.

Well, yes it does matter. - As below

An RCD is only addition protection for the electrical installation. - RCD is additional protection but it is also the only device that will stop an electric shock and fire starting! Bonding does not do this!
RCDs will not prevent fires. Why have you brought up bonding? - but it is to prevent shock.

Surely, you are not suggesting that faulty appliances would be acceptable as long as an RCD was present. - Faulty appliances would not allow the RCD to stay connected - it would keep triping - insulation goes on appliance then the RCD will trip!
So would the fuse or mcb.

RCDs are not infallible. They are not a magic solution to all our problems. - RCDs are only problematic when you have a faulty installation. A good installation wont trip the RCD! If the RCD trips then your losing the current to something else or earth - RCD is doing its job 100%
RCDs are problematic when they fail.

That would be to judge if others thought it important.
Perhaps they got told to bury it by larger landlords than your Grandfather. - They never approached parliament about it - their biggest problem was they put it in the papers and that was it -no reasons behind it!
Perhaps I was correct, then.

I cannot argue that point but I do not think the LA 'check up'.
More likely just prosecute when the occasion arises. - Classic example of who does this protect - the landlord - landlord did their job - LA failed - whos to blame - LA. This is all down to training of LA

RCDs will help should a person touch a live conductor BUT RCDs do not recognise overcurrent so are unlikely to help against fires.
The fuse/MCB will do this. - RCDs do look for overcurrent!No they don't.
(not designed to but they do) - 63A - 30mA .Fundamental misunderstanding there.
They are looking for both!No they don't.
If a fire starts, a short to earth normally happens when the MCB does not trip - to high of resistance - the RCD will pick this up! Like you said the MCB is in charge of overcurrent - but clearly over-current is not the main cause of fire - or there would not be fires from electrical.Not exactly sure what that means but I suspect more fundamental misunderstandings.

Is this a misunderstanding leading you to believe that fuses are not as safe as MCBs.
I note you did not respond to my query regarding BS3036s. - Big problem with BS3036 - fuse cable can be replaced with 2.5 cable - this will not blow! - meaning they have the potential to be very dangerous!
You cannot, nor should you, legislate against stupidity.

Perhaps, but if it became apparent that large numbers of people who rented were being injured by faulty electricals something would soon be done. I would think that the hospital staff DO care - that's what they DO do.
- I used to work for Welsh Ambulance Service until I bust my back - they dont care where the person comes from - their priority is to care about the person not their house!
There will be paperwork after the 'carers' have done their part.
Only way to look at how many are in rentals is to look at how many landlords are jailed!
Now you're being silly.

I'll let you have the last word.

 

[Spazz]

The law states that a landlord has a duty of care to ensure that the electrical installation is safe. - This is a blanket reg any noone knows what the have to do - nor do the EHPs
If not complying with 7671 or equivalent it can be deemed unsafe
Not everyone has EICRs - there are so many different ideas of a safe system - I do agree the only way to know if safe is to test it - but this cant be enforced

I do not object to a law requiring EICRs to be introduced although you started the thread by requiring RCDs to be fitted. This would require CU changes and would not happen. -The problem with the older CUs is that most of them dont have bonding in place.
Yes they do.
Everyone I come across didn't
An RCD is not notifiable therefore dos not require an electrician
I would say it was. Where in schedule 4 does it allow this
NAPIT say its not
even though an electrician would be a way better option (I dont agree with landords doing their own work but it happens). A CU change costs £300 - £450 - thats 1 months rent!
Agree.
Also, the figures you quote are hugely more than any I have previously read since Part P was first suggested. - I made a mistake in the OP - it was corrected later on in the thread
Ok.
However, the situation would arise, as is now the case where letting agents demand an electrical report, disreputable landlords will hire disreputable electricians who will walk round and then sign a piece of paper for fifty pounds. - Agents or LAs cant demand EICRs they can only request them - if they demand one then the landlord (at present) will have a case against them in court - recent case about this in NewPort Gwent - LA lost!
Perhaps but I had heard some letting agents won't handle the property without.
That is a personal choice not a legal one - the landlord could have a case against this if they wanted
Laws are not to protect landlords. - If there where not laws then more people will be killed - Landlords think they are a pain but they do protect them!
No they don't.
Yes they do - they are just a pain
All of them have appliances. Cooker, boiler, fires, even if unfurnished. - Gas appliances are inspected with the gas safety cert - like I said before if the property has a RCD installed then even if the appliance goes faulty the RCD will protect it
It may but that is no excuse for faulty appliances.
I'm surprised you think this a reasonable argument.
I dont agree with with faulty items - I am 100% behind PAT testing but as long as those stickers are out there doing it for 30p per item and not testing them I will never stand behind it being law
Furnished properties have the same number as you do.

You did not seem to grasp my point about the Gas Safety Check being an appliance check. -I fully understand this
It does not have the same number of tests and measurements and disruption that an EICR would. -Electric is more complicated than gas - more of a reason to have it tested more often!.
I repeat. I would not be against an EICR requirement becoming law but that was not the original proposal.
Agreed

Well, yes it does matter. - As below

An RCD is only addition protection for the electrical installation. - RCD is additional protection but it is also the only device that will stop an electric shock and fire starting! Bonding does not do this!
RCDs will not prevent fires. Why have you brought up bonding? - but it is to prevent shock.
They do - Fires are also caused by leakage to earth of over 250mA - a MCB wont pick this up.
Bonding I was refuring to shock protection

Surely, you are not suggesting that faulty appliances would be acceptable as long as an RCD was present. - Faulty appliances would not allow the RCD to stay connected - it would keep triping - insulation goes on appliance then the RCD will trip!
So would the fuse or mcb.
Only if a high current passes though - if a N/E fault occurs MCB wont pic it up - same as a small earth leakage - still a faulty item

RCDs are not infallible. They are not a magic solution to all our problems. - RCDs are only problematic when you have a faulty installation. A good installation wont trip the RCD! If the RCD trips then your losing the current to something else or earth - RCD is doing its job 100%
RCDs are problematic when they fail.
Agreed - Time to replace it then!

That would be to judge if others thought it important.
Perhaps they got told to bury it by larger landlords than your Grandfather. - They never approached parliament about it - their biggest problem was they put it in the papers and that was it -no reasons behind it!
Perhaps I was correct, then.

I cannot argue that point but I do not think the LA 'check up'.
More likely just prosecute when the occasion arises. - Classic example of who does this protect - the landlord - landlord did their job - LA failed - whos to blame - LA. This is all down to training of LA

RCDs will help should a person touch a live conductor BUT RCDs do not recognise overcurrent so are unlikely to help against fires.
The fuse/MCB will do this. - RCDs do look for overcurrent! No they don't What is the purpose of the 63A then - they can be used as a main switch - the MCB is mainly responsible for over current - agreed - the RCD can detect very high overcurrent that the MCB should of picked up long before!
(not designed to but they do) - 63A - 30mA .Fundamental misunderstanding there.
They are looking for both!No they don't. - As above
If a fire starts, a short to earth normally happens when the MCB does not trip - to high of resistance - the RCD will pick this up! Like you said the MCB is in charge of overcurrent - but clearly over-current is not the main cause of fire - or there would not be fires from electrical.Not exactly sure what that means but I suspect more fundamental misunderstandings.
MCB - over current - RCD fault protection (as above) check the fire stats website and it states on there that small currents of 250mA will start a fire - also they heavily state RCD for Fire Protection. Also Regs state 300mA RCD for fire protection

Is this a misunderstanding leading you to believe that fuses are not as safe as MCBs.
I note you did not respond to my query regarding BS3036s. - Big problem with BS3036 - fuse cable can be replaced with 2.5 cable - this will not blow! - meaning they have the potential to be very dangerous!
You cannot, nor should you, legislate against stupidity.
Stupidity is what kills more people


Perhaps, but if it became apparent that large numbers of people who rented were being injured by faulty electricals something would soon be done. I would think that the hospital staff DO care - that's what they DO do.
- I used to work for Welsh Ambulance Service until I bust my back - they dont care where the person comes from - their priority is to care about the person not their house!
There will be paperwork after the 'carers' have done their part.
Only way to look at how many are in rentals is to look at how many landlords are jailed!
Now you're being silly.

I'll let you have the last word.

Either way we both agree RCDs should be in all properties dont we - a law cant be passed in this effect but it can be passed for rental properties!
Some Landlords only care about getting their rent in - check the other posts - if you say different you obeserly dont work for them or had some very good landlords!

Either way we both agree on the 2 issues:
RCDs should be installed!
EICRs should be done!

If you dont like it dont comment on it!

 

[IQ Electrical]

There are far too many technical and statistical inaccuracies in the 'proposal' I'm fully in favour of a mandatory 5-yearly EICR but to think that any authority can/will enforce the retro-fitting of RCD protection is just plain naivety.

 

[UNG]

I was going to post a reply to some of the comments made in recent posts until I read post 122

 

[Spazz]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them.
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice!
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead?

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

 

[trev]

Nicholas, is your campaign including rented business premises?

 

[Spazz]

that was not the idea - if that comes in the it does.

Im looking at the housing Act 2004. Business Premises do not fall under this law.

Its not something I have thought about to be honest so I am opening that to the floor - I cant see Shock Protection working in all commercial premises because some commercial units produce earth fault current as part of their equipment.

 

[oldtimer]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them. I agree that a lanlord should have a minimum of RCD cover in the property and yes I upgraded my 3036 board to MCB 2.5mm earth to 6mm then RCD and 10mm earth
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice! I do work for a letting agent and in most cases the landlords are responsable but yes there is a few that see the property as a cash cow and have the rent money spent already. I always advise new landlords to bank 10% of the rental income until they build up a £2 or £3k emergency fund
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead? Well this is down to cost and the need for he electrician to work or in other words a fudge ie I can install a shower circuit and RCD for say £200 but you would be better upgrading the CU for say £475 the problem is that some landlords are thinking you are like a tyre company I go in for a puncture repair and come out with 4 new tyres so just tell me what I am obliged to do.

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.Yes we are pushing but must take care we do not push too hard as this switches people off.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!As I have said before people have priorities and a new CU is on the bottom of the list as it sits in a cupboard under the stair and "anyway what is the problem its been their for years and how come they are now dangerous I dont see an epademic with people being electricuted" type of comment plus human nature will pay £25k for a car but fight tooth and nail over a £100 electrical repair job.

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)Well yes we are and yes we want to do a good job but we as a trade cannot preach and force our views on people there is a balance to be had in this respect

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants I have said this before Visual inspection condition reports are not worth the paper they ar written on and will somebody please show me where in the BGB they are. As for EICR again I have said this before plus have sent the same recommendation to the Scottish Parliment who are reviewing this ie every rental property (exclude HMO) gets a EICR every 5 years with a mini EICR if there is a change of tenant that confirms the RCD if fitted trips within the specified times and that the Zs at ALL socket outlets including cooker is recorded


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.Sounds good but in reality councils and governments like self regulation because that means they dont haveto take responsability
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

So yes we need to push but the minute we push too hard thats the time we are accused of feathering our nest at the expense of the customer/landlord or in other words politics

 

[IQ Electrical]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them.
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice!
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead?

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

Nicholas, look at what you have written above and think about it.
Not one person on this forum objects to the fitting of RCDs in any property be it rented or privately owned-what we are telling you is that proposing a law to enforce the installation of RCDs is an absolute waste of time, it will not happen.

You say you have 'support' from Local Authorities etc. but this is meaningless-they don't have to get this through parliament or find funding for policing and enforcing etc.
Do yourself a favour and put your energy into the mandatory 5-yearly EICR with documented interim visuals, I think we're heading in that direction (albeit slowly) and together with Local Authority landlord licensing schemes, this would seem to be a far more sensible path.

Do you really think that we are all against fitting RCDs in rented properties or do you think that maybe we see things from an installers point of view having seen previous attempts to regulate our industry fail miserably.

 

[Spazz]

I fully agree with the comments above.
A few ideas that I use - just to throw in the mix:

build up a £2 or £3k emergency fund - Fantastic Idea
what I am obliged to do. - I give them an option - RCD for £150-£200 (depending on make) and EICR £20 per circuit (£160 average) or CU change for £325 (was £250) which includes a free EICR. - this gives the idea that they made up their mind and no pressure from us

Yes we are pushing but must take care we do not push too hard as this switches people off. - Fully agree - hence what I said above - give them the control

As I have said before people have priorities and a new CU is on the bottom of the list as it sits in a cupboard under the stair and "anyway what is the problem its been their for years and how come they are now dangerous I dont see an epademic with people being electricuted" type of comment plus human nature will pay £25k for a car but fight tooth and nail over a £100 electrical repair job. -Fully Agree 100%

Well yes we are and yes we want to do a good job but we as a trade cannot preach and force our views on people there is a balance to be had in this respect - Again fully agree 100%

Visual Inspections - I fully agree with this - this is exactly the same as I said to Anglesey CC when they brought it up - I explained that 90% of the install is normally behind walls which is impossible to see.

Sounds good but in reality councils and governments like self regulation because that means they dont haveto take responsibility - Licencing is in effect in Scotland at the moment - and the Welsh government is looking at bringing this in before Christmas in Wales! - cant comment on England sorry!


So yes we need to push but the minute we push too hard thats the time we are accused of feathering our nest at the expense of the customer/landlord or in other words politics
If this becomes law then we wont have to push it at all - it will be you have to have it end of! - and not us saying it

 

[Spazz]

There is alot of objection about putting this into Law - as I said we are all for installing them

I am doing them both as a package and the pros and cons of both - so its up to parliament which one (if not both) they take on.
I cant run the EICR on my own as ESC put the initial idea forward - but I can run the RCD with the EICR as a 2nd option.

I have to be careful on how I do it - I am not focusing on the EICR on here because everyone has said that yes 100% we are behind it - the question is 1 year or 5 years?
I am going to create an additional thread about EICRs and I want nothing mentioned about RCDs on there please

 

[flake]

Great discussion buddy, all the participants expose their ideas very well and all that information is worthy and exactly that which I am looking for. So its my goodness that I checked to this thread.

 

[sparc]

This was posted on RatedPeople today (8 June). The stated budget was less than £100 ....

"I need an electrician to test the electrics and carry out the bare minimum work if any required to issue us with a safety/ landlord certificate. This needs to be done very urgently. Please only respond if you are available over Saturday the 9th of June 2012 or Sunday the 10th of June 2012 as it cannot be left any later than that. Thank you"

 

[trev]

This was posted on RatedPeople today (8 June). The stated budget was less than £100 ....

"I need an electrician to test the electrics and carry out the bare minimum work if any required to issue us with a safety/ landlord certificate. This needs to be done very urgently. Please only respond if you are available over Saturday the 9th of June 2012 or Sunday the 10th of June 2012 as it cannot be left any later than that. Thank you"

And they think they'll get a thorough I&T plus any remeds for that...good luck

 

[oldtimer]

This was posted on RatedPeople today (8 June). The stated budget was less than £100 ....

"I need an electrician to test the electrics and carry out the bare minimum work if any required to issue us with a safety/ landlord certificate. This needs to be done very urgently. Please only respond if you are available over Saturday the 9th of June 2012 or Sunday the 10th of June 2012 as it cannot be left any later than that. Thank you"

And of course a satisfactory will be the outcome deary dear

 

[Spazz]

I wonder if they got any responses with that post.

Out of interest how is rated people working for you? do you get much from it? also are you in town or countryside?

 

[sparc]

I intend to ask ... if they'll tell me. I'm curious to know if they feel any sense of responsibility.

Since the revamp - I think it was at end of last year or early this year - RP has been tons better. I'm getting 4-5 reasonable leads from RP some weeks. Some jobs have turned into repeat business. I'm on edge of Reading, but in country, so about 30% of all jobs I do are 'town', the rest definitely 'country' - with most of new business coming via ads in very local papers/newsletters, etc. How about you?

 

[Spazz]

I was working for 2 agents till I told them to take a run and jump for not paying up (most upto 2 month late)
All the properties I saw (over 100 in total) where in small Welsh towns - no RCD in any of them, some without bonding, showers without RCDs, need I go on?

All these I put in recommendations to get the electrical install sorted and none of them took it up apart from the odd one here and there. The rest where on crisis mode - something go wrong then fix it and not before!

Even thought the ones I have done in the country side have been fantastic - landlord more than happy to do anything you say within reason - RCDs in every property and everything up to scratch!

I find the town landlords are the worst by far!

 

[sparc]

Holiday lets are similar.

I drive my wife and family mad by insisting on taking a quickish peek at electrics of the holiday cottages we get on South Coast. (Not so sad as to take tools and meter on hols - yet!)

Last one we stayed at in Dorset was beautiful accommodation - really well set up, nicely furnished, everything. But electrics were pretty awful. No RCD, no bonding (at all!) and some dodgy accessories. The flat had a big information guide with all local amenities listed, plus lots of info on the property - gas cert, But no EIC. I politely asked the agents about that after the hol didn't get a reply.

 

[somersetsparks]

I was working for 2 agents till I told them to take a run and jump for not paying up (most upto 2 month late)
All the properties I saw (over 100 in total) where in small Welsh towns - no RCD in any of them, some without bonding, showers without RCDs, need I go on?

All these I put in recommendations to get the electrical install sorted and none of them took it up apart from the odd one here and there. The rest where on crisis mode - something go wrong then fix it and not before!

Even thought the ones I have done in the country side have been fantastic - landlord more than happy to do anything you say within reason - RCDs in every property and everything up to scratch!

I find the town landlords are the worst by far!

What is really wrong with no RCD on shower though providing EEBADS is met and supplementary bonding is in place?
I find the whole RCD thing a bit OTT really, I mean come on a law?
Loose and broken accesories -VERY BAD
No bonding - BAD
No supplementary bonding - Pretty Ba
No RCD - MINOR.

An EICR should be compulsory every 10 years or change of tennants in rental properties,
The last thing this country needs is some namby pamby over the top 'RCDs in rental properties act 2012' bought in under the pathetic pretence of 'even if it saves just one life'

Don't mean to offend, just my views

 

[alarm man]

i read a post that nics family own a load of rental properties,nics a spark,the maths add up to me.

 

[Risteard]

What is the purpose of the 63A then - they can be used as a main switch - the MCB is mainly responsible for over current - agreed - the RCD can detect very high overcurrent that the MCB should of picked up long before!

In the case of that RCCB it means that it can safely carry 63A in service. It does not mean that it will offer any overcurrent protection should that be exceeded, as it won't. The only type of RCD that will is an RCBO as it has integral overcurrent protection (hence the name RCBO).

An RCCB will only offer protection against earth faults.

 

[Spazz]

i read a post that nics family own a load of rental properties,nics a spark,the maths add up to me.

I wish - I dont get paid for doing work on any of his houses - apart from a flat gift of £40 (if Im lucky!)

 

[alarm man]

I wish - I dont get paid for doing work on any of his houses - apart from a flat gift of £40 (if Im lucky!)

Thanks mo the test - best advice

You are right the only assets I is the van (£1,000 worth) and the car (£10,000 worth) as well as all my tools (£1,000 worth) and my IT equipment (about £800 worth)
So £13K in total - nothing compared to most others on here and in the trade.

I have just been given a plot (not in my name and not going in my name (in my brothers name at present) - it was to offset death tax of my grandfather who is expected to go within the next 7 years so hes given all his assets away to the grandkids - mine in my brothers name because of the legal aid situation) was thinking of starting building on it in the next few months - self build. I done this before a few years back but not sure if I can afford to do it till new year.

Im happy to discuss the situation with u mo, but I think you have it down to a T at the moment - I will stay S/E - thanks for the advice!

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/business-related/58377-self-employed-limited.html#ixzz1yB3KJeuJ

maybe so,but thats your post mate,i think you are doing ok,some people are looking to see if they can feed thier family in the new year,your looking to build a house,if you can build a house on 8k a year income,id be happy to see the details on how to do it.

 

[Dave 85]

One thing I really dont get:

Everyone on here is for installing RCDs in domestic properties so why is it when a proposal of a change of law regarding having them in all rental properties everyone objects to them.
Most of you are looking at this and saying that the landlord wont do it - he wont have a choice!
Plus honestly if you went into a rental property and they wanted a shower what would you do? - install an RCD at a cost of how much? Instead of putting that RCD outside of the CU (which most do) why not put it inside instead?

We are all pushing for RCDs in all homes as it is so why are some of you against it being mandatory - it will make your life easier.
Plus we are not talking big money here either -these landlords get £400 - £700 per month (depending on the size of the property) they should be putting part of that back in.

Yes RCDs go home, yes they pack up but so does cookers, so do cars - they would not think twice about replacing them would they!

Like has been said endless times - mot of us are sick and tired of landlords/home owners putting their/their children/their tenants safety after their items (cars, etc)

I bet everyone here (who is an electrician) has a RCD in your home and every house you are connected with so why on earth wont you push for having them in every home by law?
Yes I know what you are going to say next - we are not pushing for every home - this is because we cant! Rental Properties are different - they are commercial and domestic at the same time as well as the landlord having someone elses life in their hands - different situation completely - the law can enforce different conditions on them where as they cant on a home owner.

Same can be said with Hotels, Pubs, Child Care facilities, etc, etc, etc.


Im not going to touch on EICRs because from what I see - everyone is for this!
The question is:
1 year and scrap in-between tenants
5 years with visual in-between tenants


In regards to enforcement as has been said - the LA licencing team (when it comes in for rentals) will enforce this and everything else imposed on landlords.
I know the complications which goes with this - but thats on their heads not ours or the landlords

I dont have an RCD in my house. I also have a load of rather shoddy DIY wiring that the previous owner did that I haven't done anything about, and I've been here 3 years.
Why?
Because its perfectly safe so why bother?
Maybe Ill stick a new board on when I sell to add value but who knows.

This whole thread all smells a bit too nanny state to me. Yes RCD's are a good thing, yes I agree that new installs should have them, no I do not agree that we should force a financially struggling british public to spend even more of its hard earned cash on something rather pointless.

The whole thing is completely unenforcable anyway, your wasting your time and everyone can see it but you....
You can't chop an RCD into the tails these days cos it will knock out the whole install in the event of a fault, so it would, more often than not, mean a CU change, but you cant do a CU change unless there is bonding etc and all circuits are 100% up to scratch so in some cases this would mean major work/rewire just to be able to adere to your silly RCD rule.

Personally I think you are attempting to change the UK laws purely to give your self more work.

Oh and Nick....Have you actually properly researched how many people are killed in the UK, let alone wales, every year by the fixed wiring in their home. It probably accounts for about 1 in every 50 000 deaths, and I'd guess a good number of them were doing a bit of DIY electrics when they bought it.
There are far more important things to be campaigning about.

Edit:
People who intentionally keep their declared earnings low in order to cream huge sums of money out of the poor downtrodden tax payer for example....

 

[Geoffsd]

Personally I think you are attempting to change the UK laws purely to give your self more work.

The mark of a true politician.

 

[oldtimer]

Well one idea would be an EICR every 2 years if no RCD fitted then every 5-6 years if RCD fitted

 

[sparc]

I do not agree that we should force a financially struggling british public to spend even more of its hard earned cash on something rather pointless.

....

Completely agree on that score, but what really ticks me off is going into a house where 000s have been spent on furnishings and the latest gadgets and technology, then underneath it all you find crappy 60s wiring and an old re-wireable fuse board with half a dozen extra circuits tacked on the side.

Sure there's a lot of people that couldn't afford to spend on upgrading electrics, but there's also a lot that will never see it as a priority.

 

[UNG]

Well one idea would be an EICR every 2 years if no RCD fitted then every 5-6 years if RCD fitted

Why !!

Completely agree on that score, but what really ticks me off is going into a house where 000s have been spent on furnishings and the latest gadgets and technology, then underneath it all you find crappy 60s wiring and an old re-wireable fuse board with half a dozen extra circuits tacked on the side.

Sure there's a lot of people that couldn't afford to spend on upgrading electrics, but there's also a lot that will never see it as a priority.

Is an RCD or new consumer unit a must have gadget, if you can't afford to upgrade it is ok to leave it if you can afford it you should upgrade it not quite sure of the logic

 

[swifts]

Interesting Nicholas that you had a positive response from an assembly member I doubt though whether that same response will be forthcoming from the Welsh government.
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