Changes to FIT coming sooner that we thought!

[UNG]

Look what happens when the tories get in power. Cuts followed by social breakdown.

The only response to that comment

Look what happened with Labour in power a "boom" in unaffordable and unsustainable spending and trying to hold inflation at 2% with only one tool in the box to use, interest rates. What followed the lending spending boom was the not so "independent" bank of England at the behest of Gordon B making the repayments so expensive the "bust" was inevitable with the resulting social breakdown as people lost their homes and investments. Unfortunately the resulting medicine is not so popular

Why are interest rates relevant to FiT payback? Low interest rates are a just another bonus for irresponsible insolvent banks so why should we suffer again and again for their mistakes?

If interest rates were higher would people choose to invest in PV after all investment is all about the rate of return on the money invested


The question I want to ask those involved was the the FIT rate set high to attract customers to invest in a technology that promises a return over 25 years but has no record or history to make an informed decision on the investment risk. All the publicity and advertising I have seen seems to indicate a fit and forget needs no maintenance system that will last 25 years with usually a 10 year warranty. What in warranty costs, out of warranty costs and equipment longevity can people expect over the expected 25 year life of the system that they are investing in to actually gauge the rate of return. As with all technology it will evolve and improve it will become more efficient and also become cheaper so if repairs are needed will it be an expensive repair and upgrade to an older system if newer panels are not compatible. After 25 years will the PV system still work and be viable or is it then redundant and costs incurred to rip it out

While I appreciate the investment people have made to be part of Solar PV this and other governments have a history with new initiatives you only have to look at HIPS what if Part P disappeared.

Sorry for being somewhat negative but this is my analysis and thoughts on the PV investment

 

[BillyH]

Assuming the worst case senario actually becomes fact as of Monday,what would be considered the last install date likely be?

 

[Green]

I'll be trying to get everyone through by December 1st - I don't want any excuses about FIT applications being lost in the post etc.

 

[CES Heating]

Ive heard on the grapevine that the actual tariff they wanted to put it down to was 9p. Off the record comments I have heard from others have been that they wouldn't be surprised if it went down to this by this time next year.

 

[Scooby]

Series530, very eloquently put, and I agree with 99% of it. Clearly the current situation couldn't continue (and I talk as a 'lucky' customer like you), but the potential damage is being done by the severity of the proposed cuts and the much earlier date. Will this remove the bottom-feeders/double-glazing types? Some of them no doubt. But it'll also harm the genuine installers out there, many of whom are only just dipping their toes into this expensive business - all the expensive outlay, with little prospect of a decent return.

As BiggsSolar, says, I'd love to know where they get their figures from - if they'd had any genuine contact with what was happening on the ground, they could have eased this dramatic change so it wouldn't be as potentially harmful to everyone. Even if that had meant a smaller reduction in FIT a few months back.

But this "Oh sh*t - the money's running out - cut deep and make it sharpish..." reaction is just pitiful.

 

[andyyoyo]

Looks like there is no point in me investing the rest of my training- once my few potential customers hear of this there is no way they will fork out the money. Its bloody pathetic, typical of this country, my friend in France even received a grant for her system plus her 43p in euros. Looks like its a life of housebashing for me after all.

 

[BillyH]

Would it be wise to send FIT applications by registered post ?

 

[BruceB]

Perhaps.
But there is a catch with recorded delivery and similar services.
If there is no-one available to sign, or they refuse to sign then the letter will not be delivered.
In England, the courts normally hold that something sent by first class post can be considered delivered the next day.
So first class plus proof of posting can be slightly more useful if trying to deliver documents in say a small claims court situation.
Perhaps the same might apply to delivering FIT applications....?
Regards
Bruce

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Looking longer term, did anyone else noticed in the EST doc about fits being tied to energy efficiency i.e. C rated properties and above to get the upper tier, does that mean barn/field systems attract the lower rate whatever that may be?

There is still a massive amount of info missing on the EST doc, as has been pointed out >4kW 18x225W and your potentially onto 37.1p/kWhr, this can be hooked up to a SMA3800V and still work well.

I now have customers taking risks on planning and G59 connections to head off the changes, mounting temp installs on the ground before fitting to roofs later just to get on the higher FIT. Im having cash thrown at me to install and have taken orders for 7 systems today alone, 3 of which will be ground mounted untill I have time to book scafolding and aford the time to get it done right.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Nooooooooooo, i have had my first install on tuesday that wont get inspected untill january for my accreditation, dont know what to do-tell the client what?? He's put his trust in me for this

Personally Id get it signed off by another installer and cancel your inspection while you can. Im sure plenty here would do it for you.

 

[GaryM]

Personally Id get it signed off by another installer and cancel your inspection while you can. Im sure plenty here would do it for you.

Does the FiT certificate need to be sent with an invoice to your energy supplier?
Is so, would they need to come from the same company?

I'm also in a predicament in that the guy I work for and I both completed our C&G2399 this past week and were due to carry out a 4kWp install on my house as a first install in readiness for an MCS assessment from Elecsa who also we're also with for Part P. It seems Elecsa are running at 4-6 weeks for an assessment so an install for me isn't looking too likely now

 

[solarkid]

If the labour were still in power im sure they would of sorted something better out than the torries do ... they would sell there own mother if they had too ... all they do is make the rich richer and sell everthing off including the NHS services if they had the chance ... i think this goverment get off giving contracts abroad making fat cats richer ... this country has gone to the dogs .... And no im not a labour man but hate the torries with passion ...

 

[Noshocks]

My annual assesment is a month late, still havent had a letter with a renewal date, so it does give me the option to jump ship after next months installs are completed, I applied for planning to convert my own flat roof garage to a pitched one last month, I was then going to fit PV, I can see me having to rig this up and register it and take the chance i'll get planning, its a bit naughty but worth the risk.

 

[langstroth2]

If the labour were still in power im sure they would of sorted something better out than the torries do

Errr, who was in power before, during and after the banking fiasco. And who, as usual, brought the country into so much debt?

I agree though the current revision of FiT scheme is a complete shambles, but one where I suspect the blame lies as much with the whitehall machinery (sclerotic processes and not always that engaged bureaucrats, too many of which were employed in roles of questionable benefit - see above) than ministers, who in reality have much less control than people imagine. It must be like trying to helm a super tanker - takes miles before anyone realises the captain's changed and he's asked the ship to move to the right.

 

[SRE]

Anyone started to suss out legitimate shortcuts - I don't mean the work - maybe the paperwork????

 

[Noshocks]

SRE - it depends on whether you plan to renew your MCS, if not then there is no paperwork to do, is there

 

[SolarCity]

I am looking at maybe asking customers if they mind waiting until mid-December for their hand-over pack. As long as the certificate is handed over then there should be no issue. I wouldn't like to think that installers that plan on packing MCS in will forgo this important aspect of an install - it's not the customer's fault that the government are stitching us up.

 

[cbw]

I have today cancelled all my advertising, 2 jobs booked for late November and layed off 2 subbies.

I intend to mothball the company until early next year and then review whats left of the industry.

I will now plough my time and money into expanding my existing successful electrical business, I am SO upset at the way this has panned out and really feel for the guys who have spent out and are awaiting assessment, as mentioned what do you say to your customers???

Absolute disaster for some, including my staff.

 

[sptrotter67]

might as well go do something else now, conservatives destroying the working man's living again, reminds me of Margaret Thatcher's Govt.. D*cks

 

[Yanman]

I have just spent the last hour reading all the posts. I found out about the December 8th date from a customer who read it in the Times today. I know its still speculation but I have that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I wanted to end this with something encouraging and uplifting........ but I can't think of anything.

Still its good to know you have brothers to share your grief with.

 

[powervan]

im gutted just got 2 jobs excepted straight off!!thought i was cheap!!! but could of gone for more money!! How is all supply companies going to survive! CANT BELIEVE THE RESULT OF THIS TO SO MANY COMPANIES!!!!TOTAL PLONKERS!!!

 

[gordysolar]

Im not happy i have my nic mcs assessment on tuesday 1st november and what to do if i pass pay for website or just do couple of.jobs in november to cover my expenses for training not happy at all when will we know for sure what cuts are?

 

[SRE]

SRE - it depends on whether you plan to renew your MCS, if not then there is no paperwork to do, is there

I am ever an optimist and although I do think that we will have a very quiet Winter now, panel prices are still set to drop a bit, I'll have to nip my margins and those of our subcontractors a bit and the customer won't be as well off but I think we'll still have a business - just smaller.

So I will be renewing our MCS, it took too much work and money to throw the baby out with the bath water. I've stashed a bit of cash that I was going to use in April/May when I anticipated it would be slow - I'll just have to be more careful and make it last longer.

I'm producing as much of the handover packs this week as is possible and I'm thinking it would be wise for the customer to advise the utility companies of their booked dates for installation - and as soon as possible, by registered post. Like Bigs I think our customers will have to wait until mid December for the final handover packs, struggling to think of anything else we can reasonably do ....

 

[Noshocks]

One thing that hasent been mentioned for November is the stock situation, I ordered the last kit for Novembers jobs on Friday but am concerned that so many jobs will be pulled forward that suppliers will deliver to whoever shouts loudest, I suggest this is the first call on Monday as their phones will be ringing off the hook.

 

[Richard]

Can anyone confirm if this information is correct yet? Any official press releases or just rumour? Thanks

 

[GaryM]

Monday will be the day for confirmation.

 

[grandfortune]

and how is this happening, in parliment can we see it or get a live feed via twitter or something like that?

 

[GaryM]

Not sure but I'll be checking Twitter and logging in here at regular intervals.

 

[langstroth2]

There's always the DECC twitter feed (deccgovuk) - although I imagine the news will be one here and other forums pretty quickly!

 

[dingledong]

i cant see these working .as in 10 years time the leccy board isnt going to want to buy your electric as they want to sell there's or am i just a pessamist

 

[solarfred]

Parliamentary written statements will be made after 15.30 on Monday so expect to hear something after then.

 

[moggy1968]

we're doomed, doomed I tell ye

 

[Ramjam]

All I ask is that installations booked prior to the announcement (as in deposits registered with REAL) are eligible for the higher rate regardless of the installation date. We have an order book that will take until mid February to complete, we are training new installers all the time and would be bringing them forward but we can't get everyone installed by 8th December by any means.

I have written to Virginia Graham at REAL asking her to lobby for this. I guess there are plenty of you honest, established installers who like us have a very large order book and are unwilling to rush an installation. This small amendment will enable us to serve our customers in the manner which they rightly expect.

I don't mind the 21p, the slow down would be appreciated to be honest, we've always planned for the slowdown next April, bringing it forward does threaten us but I think we would survive if it happened. I'd get rid of the 3 registered apprentices (so much for the government's plans for young people), I'd lay off a couple of roofers and not hire the extra electrician that I'm currently advertising for.

If they slash into the rate and bring forward the date then the damage to consumer confidence in renewable subsidies would be shattered. A new rate in April as originally planned is fine by me but the 8th December is just rubbish.

I guess it's all just to make us feel better about what they announce on Monday but creating panic in the industry won't help anyone. Who voted these clowns in anyway?......oh yeah, nobody, it's a coalition of second and third place election losers!!!!! Public schoolboy twits playing with our lives, remember the same bunch have the keys to the nuclear bombs!

 

[UNG]

might as well go do something else now, conservatives destroying the working man's living again, reminds me of Margaret Thatcher's Govt.. D*cks

Funny I seem to remember getting my first decent pay packet when Mrs Thatcher came to power instead of labours draconian minimal wage increases of the late 70's.
Or is your complaint that conservative governments don't use the labour parties "Viv Nicholson" system of economics

 

[UNG]

Who voted these clowns in anyway?......oh yeah, nobody, it's a coalition of second and third place election losers!!!!! Public schoolboy twits playing with our lives, remember the same bunch have the keys to the nuclear bombs!

Thanks for the information as I thought it was a coalition of first place and third place and Clown Brown in second place trying to claim squatters rights on number 10

As for the nuclear keys it's much better with them than Labours bunch of career failure misfits

 

[hp4020]

So now that FIT payments are to get reduced, will we all see reductions in our utility bills................dont hold your breath.

My heart goes out to the guys that have put their time and money into building their businesses...RIP - UKPV.

 

[thesapper72]

Sure I read that even to be entitled for this new FIT rate your property would require an EPC with a rating of C or more!! Would just like to know how many houses in the UK would reach this standard?

Recently got an EPC done on my property (it was free), and I live in a typical house for the area I live in.
- 3 bed semi, built around 1910 (no cav's)
- double glazed etc
- 250mm insulation in loft
- boiler about 2yrs old
- TRV's on all rads
- Energy efficient light bulbs everywhere

etc. etc.

Rating of the house was 'E (47)'.

If I upgraded my heating controls and put a new boiler in, rating would increase to D(60). Why would I want to spend 4-5K on this when my boiler in only 2yrs old?

To get my property up to the required 'C' rating would cost in excess of £20k!!

This new requirement for an EPC will considerably reduce the properties available within the UK that will be eligible for this new reduced FIT rate!

 

[SolarCity]

The Millenium Dome cost £1billion. Wembley cost £800million. FITs have cost £800 million.

I'm sure I have my figures right.

The Dome, as predicted, has been as much use as a paper hat. For the price paid for Wembley, we could have build 8 top stadia. FITs have built an industry and retrained an industry that suffered more than most from economic downturn.

I wish Greg Barker could sit in my office for just 1 hour and then maybe it would dawn on him how difficult it is to run a business. Businesses aren't just figures on a sodding spreadsheet. I am frantically trying to fit anxious customers into a 5 week schedule which will be thrown out by something as simple as a bit of wind and rain - coupled with that, I am desperately trying to form a business plan that will ensure that our business will survive after 8th December. Two holidays have been cancelled and a lot of sleep has been lost. I wonder how much thought the 'consultation' gave to this when they come up with THAT figure and THAT date.

Get these incompetent jokers out.

 

[HelloPercy]

I think the use of the REAL deposit database is the way to control this, lets hope so.

If anyone is holding stock of SolarWorld, Sanyo and SMA inverters then i would be interested to hear from them as i have signed jobs and i fear will not be able to get the kit on time. Thanks

 

[wilsdenbus]

I agree that there needed to be some reduction in the fit payments and have no problems with the concept and as many on here have done started to make provisions for this

The problem i have with greg barkers proposal is just the timing coming up to winter where weather will play a part in schedules something no one can predict coupled with a major supply problem with pv stock. I know they are fully aware of the problems installers face and will not be intrested as it wont effect the decc if this forces a large part of the solar industry out of work not including the support sectors. This change in my view has come about in responce to the goverment saying that shortfalls in the fits would have to be paid from the decc funds.

my advice is log into www.writetothem.com and put your views to your local MP today it takes two minutes to do and what have you got to loose as this still needs parlimentary backing.

 

[The Launderer]

I think if every one of us writes to our MP today it may help. I have already done so.

 

[GaryM]

Done, lets see if it makes a difference!

 

[GaryM]

my advice is log into www.writetothem.com and put your views to your local MP today it takes two minutes to do and what have you got to loose as this still needs parlimentary backing.

Why don't you start a new topic as it might get lost in this one for many people due to the number of pages.

 

[solarsavings]

We cant possibly install and commission the systems we have booked in five weeks and it begs the question, have we left ourselves open to law suits from those customers we have contracts with? (our terms and conditions, benefit calcs did not allow for this)

My guess is a good number of installers could end up in legal disputes with those customers whose systems aren't installed and the paperwork completed by the 8th December( if correct).

 

[JulianC]

Just given my MP both barrels.

 

[itty]

Here's my pathetic attempt to at least occupy their thoughts for a second! Sent to a selection of MP's in my area. Won't do the slightest bit of good though me thinks

Dear Local MP

The imminent excessive cut to the Solar PV FIT scheme compels me to voice my disgust at the government and all associated in this short sighted cost saving.

If the tariff is halved as leaked recently on a bona fide website, solar PV will end in this country. This is obviously very serious to an individual such as myself considering the costs to both my finances and time. To summarise this:

6 months to achieve MCS – having to implement a quality management system and meeting all government selection criteria
1 month to compile a business plan and financial forecast to try and secure a cashflow injection in these times of austerity
Countless hours and lots of money creating:
brand image
marketing
website
stationery
contracts
risk assessments
method statements
terms and conditions
guarantees

In addition to this I have had to:
source reliable suppliers, scaffolders, roofers
register for CIS, VAT, and secure monthly returns
source a bookkeeper
source an accountant
source a structural engineer
purchase lots of equipment
fund training

These are just the main points. I have worked almost all hours for the last year to set up a successful business.

I don’t expect you or whoever reads this to feel any empathy, and you will probably be completely unaffected. I suggest you take heart in the satisfaction you will put many small (and larger) businesses on the scrap heap. If you dare to let your mind wander, take a moment to reflect the implications of this cull. If you possess any moral fibre whatsoever, this email will occupy your thoughts for quite sometime. If not, then that tells a story.

One last point, historically governments have emerged from recession by backing new industries. Solar PV is currently one of the few buoyant industries in the UK. What does ending it tell the public about your ability to guide us through these tough economic times???

 

[Dale200bhp]

We cant possibly install and commission the systems we have booked in five weeks and it begs the question, have we left ourselves open to law suits from those customers we have contracts with? (our terms and conditions, benefit calcs did not allow for this)

My guess is a good number of installers could end up in legal disputes with those customers whose systems aren't installed and the paperwork completed by the 8th December( if correct).

I thought this too as I have 5 or possibly 6 systems to install, which with my original electrical contracting side of the business was going to be hard before xmas.
Im thinking of giving all deposits back, closing the solar PV side and stick to my electrical contracting! I dont think I will be the only on either. I wait to here this statement tommorow a 3.00pm

Congratulations Mr Cameron

 

[malcolmsanford]

I thought this too as I have 5 or possibly 6 systems to install, which with my original electrical contracting side of the business was going to be hard before xmas.
Im thinking of giving all deposits back, closing the solar PV side and stick to my electrical contracting! I dont think I will be the only on either. I wait to here this statement tommorow a 3.00pm

Congratulations Mr Cameron

Dale I would hold fire on that mate, if you already have accreditation with REAL MCS etc then ride the storm out and take stock before all these have to be renewed. I'm sure there are going to be some dealing done by these organisations who are also in danger of being affected by the cuts.

As your already trading as an electrical contractor for now it is another string to your bow and who knows what will happen in the fore coming months.

In fact I think you lads that are general contractors as well as PV could be in a very good place

 

[cbw]

Dale thats exactly what I have done.

I have one left booked in and am considering returning his deposit also

James

 

[TedM]

Something else to tell your MP:

Centrica (British Gas) pay out more to their top six executive directors in salaries and benefits than they pay out in Feed in Tariff payments to all their customers.