Changes to FIT coming sooner that we thought!

[Donavan Bangs]

I also have emailed my mp and left a message on their voicemail at their office. What with the quantitative easing doing no good shove it into pv which works.

 

[Yanman]

I feel some of the big guns of the solar industry need to be contacting their legal guys Monday and looking at all the legalities including taking our government to European courts regarding this.

We pay good money to MCS, REAL and others where is their represention, protection and support to their members.

 

[johnd11]

can anyone tel me if you can sign other peoples work off can only get credited in jan so thats ballsed us up

 

[Elysium]

Just emailed my local MP - dont know if it will do any good but I think all members should do the same.

 

[SRE]

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to link to this post so that they understand the devastation they are leaving behind.

 

[GaryM]

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to link to this post so that they understand the devastation they are leaving behind.

I did exactly that when I emailed my local MP earlier this afternoon.

 

[Richard-gosolar]

Well at least I can take the small profits I have made from solar and diversify into the wind farm industry as per Barker's advice! Ha ha.. Typical conservatives, what's the odds on Barker having a few mates in the wind industry as well as the energy industry! Wait for them to say they inherited the fit's from the labour gov! Maybe but I have been telling customers all year that the2008 energy act came in with cross party support, if they didn't agree with it they could have slashed it straight away! Basically we are all victims of our own success and entrenpeneurship by Dropping prices so much that the customers are getting too good a return which has obviously raised a few eyebrows. This industry could return in a year or so once the dust have settled, Chinese manufactures re already producing panels at less than 70p per watt which is set to decrease further. When it returns I hope the entry levels for installers are much higher to protect it from the gold rushers! I fel like sh...t!! And might cry a little in the next few weeks! Thanks Greg!

 

[itty]

Anybody that feels strongly enough about it try tweeting @ChrisHuhne and @GregBarkerMP

I was asked to use tag #solarfit in all tweets to see if we can get trending. Worth a shot.

 

[PV Martin]

just been announced on @gregBrkerMP tweet that an announcement will be posted on the DECC website by 10am Hmmmmm! keep em peeled! but its only his proposals so nothing confirmed!!

 

[njcuk]

Home | Solar Needs You

spread the word

 

[greyt]

From Decc's Twitter feed :-

#FITs We're waiting for the written ministerial statement to be been laid in Parliament. As soon as we hear, we'll publish.

 

[delleray]

Greg Bakers written statement on feed in tariffs now available at
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/gb_fits/gb_fits.aspx


The proposals are subject to an eight-week consultation period.
If implemented, they would introduce a new tariff for schemes up to 4kW in size of 21.0p/kWh – down from the current 43.3p/kWh. Reduced rates are also proposed for schemes between 4kW and 250kW, to ensure that those schemes receive a consistent rate of return.

Under the proposals, the new tariffs would apply to all new solar PV installations with an eligibility date on or after 12 December 2011. Such installations would receive the current tariff before moving to the lower tariffs on 1 April 2012. Consumers who already receive a FIT will see their existing payments unchanged, and those with an eligibility date on or before 11 December 2011 will receive the current rate.

He says that this date is PROPOSED..

... We are proposing that the new generation tariffs should apply from 1 April 2012 to all new solar PV installations which become eligible for FITs on or after an earlier ‘reference date’ which we propose should be 12 December 2011. Installations which become eligible for FITs before the reference date will not be affected and will continue to be eligible for the current generation tariffs...

So this is what must be lobbied to change to coincide better with 1 April 2012.
This may even be a 'give away' negotiating point.. or more like alcohol/petrol duty rises announced in a budget set-up to stop an uncontrolled rush...

The eligibility date of a project is based on it being commissioned (in working order) and having its request for accreditation received by a FIT licensee (schemes up to 50kW) or Ofgem (more than 50kW).

It used to be 'approved date' but reading the paper it clarifies the larger generation condition..

“Eligibility date” means the date from which an installation’s eligibility for FIT payments commences.

It is defined in Condition 33 of the Standard Conditions of Electricity Supply Licences, and is the later of the date:
(a) as applicable, of

(i) receipt by Ofgem of a FIT generator’s written request for ROO-FIT accreditation in a form acceptable to Ofgem (for installations with a declared net capacity of over 50kW); or

(ii) receipt by a FIT licensee of a FIT generator’s written request for MCS-certified registration (for installations with a declared net capacity of up to 50kW); or

(b) on which the eligible installation is commissioned.
...
the request for accreditation must include a Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) certificate.

but they WILL be open to pressure from consumer groups/community projects as well as the suppliers to change this timing....

.....
However, we will consider representations made during the consultation both as to
(i) the principle of applying the lower tariff to new installations installed from a
reference date (12 December 2011) that comes before the legal implementation of
those tariffs (1 April 2012); and (ii) whether the proposed reference date should be
12 December 2011 or some other date.

d.

 

[finchy]

≤4kW (new build)	37.8	21.0
≤4kW (retrofit)	43.3	21.0
>4-10kW	37.8	16.8
>10-50kW	32.9	15.2
>50-100kW	19	12.9
>100-150kW	19	12.9
>150-250kW	15	12.9
>250kW-5MW	8.5	8.5*
stand alone	8.5	8.5*

Band (kW)Current generation tariff (p/kWhProposed generation tariff (p/kWh)

 

[Echo]

The consultation ends on the 23rd Dec, yet the reference date is 12 Dec. Go figure. Absolute **********.

 

[flamefix]

The consultation ends on the 23rd Dec, yet the reference date is 12 Dec. Go figure. Absolute **********.

That's joined up government thinking for you. It is effectively a 12th December cut off date, one can't work to anything other. They should set the date at 31st December pending the consultation but they have another agenda.

 

[delleray]

yep
the consultation release page
Comprehensive Review Phase 1: Consultation on Feed-in Tariffs for solar PV - Department of Energy and Climate Change
the consultation doc itself (pdf) ..
http://www.decc.gov.uk/media/viewfi...its-scheme-consultation-doc.pdf&minwidth=truehttp://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/...view-p1/3364-fits-scheme-consultation-doc.pdf

d.

 

[TedM]

Rent-a-roof schemes only get 80% of these rates, and anyone failing the EPC test from next April will only get 9p.

 

[pwboston]

We are just going through the accreditation stage now after paying all the money to get things up and running, so havent had a chance to get our investment back yet.

Buts its now official, on the government sites and also the energy trust has put it back up.

 

[trevor79]

in order to be eligible for existing tariffs a PV installation with a total installed capacity of up to 250kW must be
[FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT][FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT]commissioned[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT][FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT][/FONT][/FONT]14 [FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT][FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT]and have its request for accreditation received [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT][FONT=Arial MT,Arial MT][/FONT][/FONT]by a FIT Licensee
[FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]14
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]An installation is "commissioned" upon the completion of such procedures and tests as constitute, at the time they are undertaken, the usual industry standards and practices for commissioning that type of installation in order to demonstrate it is capable of operation. [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[PowerFlexEnergy]

As usual, Ted has picked up on the 2 most important points that everyone else has missed.

Those two points make it mostly unworkable

 

[Everyreasonto]

This is going to destroy thousands of jobs, mine being possibly one of them.

 

[langstroth2]

Those two points make it mostly unworkable

I dont understand. The EPC test I get, but why does an attempt to limit rent-a-roof companies from using up the FiT budget make it unworkable?

 

[solarfred]

Rent-a-roof schemes only get 80% of these rates, and anyone failing the EPC test from next April will only get 9p.

Did I see that also applies to landlord schemes where there is one owner of multiple meters?

 

[PowerFlexEnergy]

Anyone with more than one installation will only get 80% of the reduced FIT.

Landlords, housing associations, councils?, care homes, industrial estate owners, property developers, businesses with more than one building, anyone with two electricity supplies and two systems connected.

Numbers I have run show a 15 year payback at 6%.

Better than a bank but at least you can get your capital out of a bank (in theory) but you can't get it back off the roof.

 

[steveax3]

Seems to be all coming down to whether customers/investors see 4-5% return as acceptable for a non-returnable capital investment. Even if equipment and installer prices continue to reduce rapidly (which they probably will in the short term to try and maintain customer demand and get rid of surplus stock), which may temporarily push returns up to 6-8%, I can see DECC just reviewing the rates again to regulate the returns back to 4-5% at best.

 

[Earthstore]

How can the DECC put the FIT in consultaion, but midterm of this, introduce the new rules?

 

[Tiberius]

Well we know where the funding for this has gone, sure many of you seen the governments £1bn investment into economy projects announced on the same day as the FIT cuts.

Oh and two of those projects are power stations which are ready to go to start being built next year...

 

[GaryM]

Is this now a done deal, cut off date of December 12th or do they have to vote on the issue?

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I agree in principle that rent-a-roofs get hit, after all its their greed that has caused some of this. The larger companies are removing money from the UK at a great rate of knots due to forgein investors and TAX breaks. It all due to the Government geting it all wrong from the start leaving the system open to this abuse, so hopefully this will aim to keep UK customer money in UK pockets and help rebalance the FIT system. The next key point is fitting between Dec and Apr to beat the EPC requirement.

 

[Dale200bhp]

The EPC, do we do a survey ourselves then for free? More time wasted? as most will fail. Or do we have to get some one in, Im sure it will reduce the amount of potential clients.

 

[PowerFlexEnergy]

So on top of the design, suitability checks, making sure that the customer has no other systems working, providing drawings, schematics, providing quotes in the right format, providing a maths model of payback, you will have to have a look at the boiler, the cavity wall insulation, the loft, the windows, the freezer, draughts excluder and the windows.

Or we pay a consultant £750 to come and and tell the customer he has to spend £4000 getting the house up to band C before we can offer an install.

Plus of course you will be competing on price with 25,000 installers all chasing 10% of the volume that is available now.

All to be able to offer a 5% return on capital tied up on his roof.

At least with a bank you can get your money back. Or maybe not if they go skint as well.

 

[ACEELEC]

please find attached document released this afternoon outlining timescale and paymentsView attachment 001_3373-solar-pv-consumer-guide.pdf

 

[TedM]

EPCs have to be carried out by certified Domestic Energy Assessors. Costs vary but should not be much more than about £50 for a normal house. This includes a standard report that details the grade for the house as it stands, what improvement work can be carried out and what the resulting grade would be.

Carrying out the work to get to a grade C (or as high as is possible if C isn't attainable) can be done over the following 12 months. But AIUI the 21p rate won't get paid until that work is done.

 

[moggy1968]

and the cost of that work will negate any value from the tariff, same as it did under the old grant system and some older houses will never achieve that level

 

[solarfred]

EPCs have to be carried out by certified Domestic Energy Assessors. Costs vary but should not be much more than about £50 for a normal house. This includes a standard report that details the grade for the house as it stands, what improvement work can be carried out and what the resulting grade would be.

Carrying out the work to get to a grade C (or as high as is possible if C isn't attainable) can be done over the following 12 months. But AIUI the 21p rate won't get paid until that work is done.

So a subsidised job at £50? Subsidised by whom? (no need to answer that). Gi's a job - I can do that.

 

[TedM]

It's not a subsidised amount. That's what a DEA can charge for about half a days work. That also includes a (I think) £9 certification fee for entering the EPC onto a central database.

All the DEAs got shafted when the government binned HIPs so there are more DEAs than work at the moment. Sound familiar?

One of my neighbours is a DEA, and pretty bitter about it too.

 

[moggy1968]

yep, they did rodger them as well at no notice. felt pretty sorry for them at the time. job one week, dole queue the next. better get used to it though!!!!!

 

[solarfred]

Unbelievable....
When HIP's came in I put my house "on the market" with my local agency and said it stays there until I decide to sell. That way it was outside the regulation which I considered to be insulting.

 

[Maff]

Earlier this month the government had a meeting with the big 6 and came away telling us to 'switch' to find a better deal, then a month later they rip the spine out of the solar PV industry, funny but i bet there is a statement from the big 6 coming saying that they are freezing their prices.
Our freind Gregg banging on about each consummer having to subsidise the FITs at £27 a year, buts it ok for EDF to make £125 a year out of my pocket.

We are a newly accredited company (2 man), we have no jobs on the books, as we were in the middle of an advertising strategy,we went to Brum on Friday made some nice contacts now it seems all for nothing.

If anyone in West Kent/East Sussex needs a hand rushing through any installs give me a PM

 

[Mark Davey]

please find attached document released this afternoon outlining timescale and payments001_3373-solar-pv-consumer-guide.pdf​

excellent info, please can you tell me where you found it??

 

[solarfred]

That's all very well but the planning office is allowed to sit on an application for 8 weeks! So all the time and expense already expended will be for nowt but the council will cash their fee cheque for telling us we do not need planning permission - go ahead with your planned installation. Sorry but it will only be worth slightly less than half what you proposed though. The bonus is, if you are quick, we will not send a man round to charge your client a few thousand to upgrade their house to maintain that level as the poor sods will have to do from April 2012.

 

[jupestar]

We've two church's who have just shelled out £500 each for pre-planning, and planning fees. We put in for DNO at the same time to cover risk of not getting installed before the 'planned' April cut (Doh). Three community centre's doing the same, a sailing club and a squash and tennis club. All lost out on planning applications. Not to mention all the farmers.

If they were MP's i'm sure they could expense these costs.

The loss of margins won't kill it customer confidence will.

 

[solarfred]

The loss of margins won't kill it customer confidence will.

Spot on!! It's a "trust" thing.

 

[GreggElectrical]

I have exactly the same problem with a church. Because they are fitting a new stainless steel roof the work was scheduled for Feb to meet the FIT deadline. It has been in the planning for over 6 months!

 

[TedM]

please find attached document released this afternoon outlining timescale and payments001_3373-solar-pv-consumer-guide.pdf​

excellent info, please can you tell me where you found it??

That looks like an updated version of the EST document that was leaked last week.

 

[Scooby]

Every PV installer - and customer - should be writing to their MPs citing actual examples of the damage being done, of which there are many on this thread alone. They need to understand the reality of this unanticipated cut, bearing in mind that the population at large, and many installers too, had good reason to believe nothing would change until next April. We have been completely wrong-footed.

Keep the language un-emotive and inoffensive. Don't be sarcastic, belligerent or rude. The actual stories themselves speak more loudly than any snide comment, so cite cold hard facts; churches losing £100s of pounds on wasted planning fees, domestic customers potentially losing deposits as they feel it unviable to proceed, companies laying off apprentices, companies even folding...

If you have a story to tell, then tell it.

 

[The Launderer]

I dont think it will make much difference but I have written to my MP again and asked for her comments. First letter has had no reply so far

 

[seprim]

Every PV installer - and customer - should be writing to their MPs citing actual examples of the damage being done, of which there are many on this thread alone. They need to understand the reality of this unanticipated cut, bearing in mind that the population at large, and many installers too, had good reason to believe nothing would change until next April. We have been completely wrong-footed.

Keep the language un-emotive and inoffensive. Don't be sarcastic, belligerent or rude. The actual stories themselves speak more loudly than any snide comment, so cite cold hard facts; churches losing £100s of pounds on wasted planning fees, domestic customers potentially losing deposits as they feel it unviable to proceed, companies laying off apprentices, companies even folding...

If you have a story to tell, then tell it.

You nailed it Scooby

Well done

 

[SolarCity]

I've written to my MP - I actually do this quite a lot anyway as I'm a bit of an opinionated so and so (not that you'd tell, right?!)

Normally get a non-generic reply within a week or so.

 

[series530]

Every PV installer - and customer - should be writing to their MPs citing actual examples of the damage being done, of which there are many on this thread alone. They need to understand the reality of this unanticipated cut, bearing in mind that the population at large, and many installers too, had good reason to believe nothing would change until next April. We have been completely wrong-footed.

Keep the language un-emotive and inoffensive. Don't be sarcastic, belligerent or rude. The actual stories themselves speak more loudly than any snide comment, so cite cold hard facts; churches losing £100s of pounds on wasted planning fees, domestic customers potentially losing deposits as they feel it unviable to proceed, companies laying off apprentices, companies even folding...

If you have a story to tell, then tell it.

I have just written to my MP - the first time in my life to ever have done so.

I have received a lot of useful and helpful advice from people on here and want to try to give something back. My letter wont make a difference. Who knows though: if we all do it, maybe something will happen.

Fingers crossed for all of you.