Competency to turn off (condemn) circuits?

[jones750]

Hi there,

I am wondering how much power people have in the event of coming across a dangerous circuit. Do you have the power to be able to terminate a circuit and lock it off to prevent use, until certain works are met? Or do you advise the owner not to use the circuit? Are there any certain governing bodies that you have to contact to inform about these issues if come across?

thank you for future replies.

 

[KAS1]

Do not leave any dangerous circuit live IMO

 

[telectrix]

remove L and N cables from MCB and N bar. document what you have done and get customer to sign it.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I think you can turn off the circuit but I don't think you can lock it off as it is still the owners property. But I would try and obtain permission from the owner to lock it off but if they say no, there's not much you can do except isolate the circuit and leave.

Jay

 

[Knobhead]

You have no statuary rights whatsoever. Some agencies do such as the DNO and the likes of the HSE or M&Q inspectors, I’ve seen them in action. They have the power and they know it.

Disconnecting the circuit leaves you wide open to accusations of bullying a customer in to having work done. Added to which it’s not your property.

Switch off, inform the customer and walk away. What they do afterwards isn’t your concern.

 

[KAS1]

If you knowingly leave a dangerous circuit live and someone gets hurt............. on your head be It as they say, how could you justify it ?

 

[snowhead]

To sumarise the above;

If you find a dangerous circuit, piece of equipment etc.
INFORM THE CUSTOMER unless it is immediately life or property threatening i.e likey to catch fire before you can speak to someone.

If the customer agrees, isolate, disconnect or lock off, only what the customer agrees to.
Document it and get it signed.

If the customer disagrees, get them to sign to say so.
If they refuse you have other actions to perform.

The Gas regs have a greater legal standing than the 17th Electrical, but as a Gasafe registered person I have no legal power to turn off or disconnect a gas supply without the owners permission.


,

 

[7029 dave]

Disconnect and isolate IMO, inform customer naturally, if somebody is killed because all you have done is turned off circuit down to you isn't it?, you know they will have it back on again!!.

 

[Kate]

You can download an official document that says about the dangers. Would cover your --- if customer doesnt pay attention.

 

[snowhead]

if somebody is killed because all you have done is turned off circuit down to you isn't it?,

No it's not, if the customer will only allow you to do that.

The installation / equipment belongs to the customer.

 

[Guest55]

You have no statuary rights whatsoever.

this topic goes no further than the above statement , end of.

 

[Guest55]

If you knowingly leave a dangerous circuit live and someone gets hurt............. on your head be It as they say, how could you justify it ?

responsibilty for any installation remains with the property owner if private / residential , or duty holder if its commercial.

you inform them verbally and follow it up in writing , job done.

i'd like to see it contested in court those that think an electrician is responsible for someone elses crappy wiring for no other reason that they are an electrician and have seen it................

 

[BES]

If a car fails an mot due to having no brakes does the garage take the car off the owner or issue the correct paperwork advising the dangers of continuing to use the car.

 

[Plonker 3]

No it issues a failure certificate and wont have a valid MOT which you will get arrested for, a dangerous circuit would be a civil case. 2 completely different things.

 

[Andy78]

I am in the camp that would have no problem in locking off/disconnecting a circuit that had an immediate danger and/or threat to life present on it.
Most things found in my sphere of work can be rectified easily and cheaply and I have yet to encounter a customer that would rather endure a directly dangerous situation rather than have it fixed. But if I did, I would make it as safe as possible before leaving it.
I know I may be leaving myself open to accusations of interfering with equipment that doesn't belong to me, but I would rather take every precaution in my capabilities.
I am pretty sure in most situations I could probably pull something out of the EAWR to back me up.


EDIT: Will return to the debate to see what slating I got in a bit, off to cook tea now...

 

[BES]

No it issues a failure certificate and wont have a valid MOT which you will get arrested for, a dangerous circuit would be a civil case. 2 completely different things.

Point I'm making is the garage has advised you your car is dangerous to use and issued the paperwork to say so that's all we can do as electricians issue danger notice isolate and if cutomer accepts this all ok if not put it in writing. If you disconnect circuit from cu what's stopping customer putting it back when you have gone. What you goning to do start ripping the circuit out the walls.

 

[a1colly]

Equipment is the owners property no right to lock/cut off. Issue written warning and if possible get customer to sign. If, at worst case, inform DNO and they may respond if a potential threat to their network/equipment.

 

[stevethesparks]

responsibilty for any installation remains with the property owner if private / residential , or duty holder if its commercial.

you inform them verbally and follow it up in writing , job done.

i'd like to see it contested in court those that think an electrician is responsible for someone elses crappy wiring for no other reason that they are an electrician and have seen it................

You make a good point, but if things were so bad and there was a chance of children in the premises being harmed if say a particular circuit was left available, I think I would side with the kids rather than the dopey parents and make safe.

 

[Marvo]

We're also not legally entitled to disconnect circuits if the property owner refuses permission but the way I look at it is if I disconnect a circuit with the owners permission to test it and it fails due to a dangerous fault then I have no obligation to reconnect it until it's repaired and safe. Not being allowed to disconnect and refusing to reconnect are not the same thing.

 

[Geordie Spark]

We're also not legally entitled to disconnect circuits if the property owner refuses permission but the way I look at it is if I disconnect a circuit with the owners permission to test it and it fails due to a dangerous fault then I have no obligation to reconnect it until it's repaired and safe. Not being allowed to disconnect and refusing to reconnect are not the same thing.

Ah here he is ....... the voice of reason.

What took you so long bonny lad ......... a sleeping elephant on the road??

 

[trev]

I caused a commotion on a decent homes programme a few years back, a woman had severe OCD and wouldn't allow any of us in here house because of the mess we'd generate so we waited until she went into hospital and her son let us in to do the periodic.

A list a defects as long as your arm was (legitimately) produced one of which was no earth facility, we had 2 days to rewire, install a kitchen and bathroom. You could barely swing a cat in that place when we were all at full speed.

Poor old bugger died during the night of day 2 so we needn't have busted a gut after all

 

[Marvo]

Ah here he is ....... the voice of reason.

What took you so long bonny lad ......... a sleeping elephant on the road??

I'm supposed to be going out tonight and I don't anything clean to wear. If you've ever ironed a grass-skirt you'd know why I've been busy .

 

[Geordie Spark]

I'm supposed to be going out tonight and I don't anything clean to wear. If you've ever ironed a grass-skirt you'd know why I've been busy .

You should have asked Tony to lend you one of his pink tutus

 

[telectrix]

You should have asked Tony to lend you one of his pink tutus

thought you'd borrowed them.

 

[Engineer54]

Right or wrong, we are not the Electrical Police, and therefore have no right in law, to deprive a customer the use of his private property. Them's the facts of the matter!!

As the old saying goes you can't educate pork, so all you can do is leave the offending circuit in a de-energised condition (MCB Off or fuse Removed from carrier) and issue a ''Danger Notice''!! If the customer then wishes to switch the MCB on, or replace the fuse in it's carrier, that's solely down to that person's actions, ...it's not your problem!! You as an electrician have complied with your Duty of Care....

 

[Geordie Spark]

thought you'd borrowed them.

I did, but not for me. It was for Tidyboiler to wear at the Pikey's Crimbo party. She went as the Sugar Plum Fairy.

 

[Paul.M]

A good example is what I came across 3 weeks ago. Landlord called, needs two broken light fittings re-newing + an EICR for a large 3 bed/two story flat above a shop (unoccupied). Got the keys and off I went, found the two shattered fittings, went to the C/U and opened it up straight away. This is a new board (12 months old) with burn marks on the wall above it!?!?

One of the Neutral bars is burning out. L-E and L-N = 141V on the tails. The main incomer is in the disused shop below with no iso switch in the flat and no access to the shop. The 12 way/duel RCD board in the flat is also feeding the shop below, I have no idea about the the state of the shop that has been standing dormant for years (about 7-9 years I think).......

Q. What would you do???

I turned off the C/U iso. Called the landlord and told him that the electrical installation is unsafe and needs a FULL investigation before a fire starts "I have commend it". I took a couple of pics of the board, sent him a few long texts and saved them all on my laptop to cover my back. I'm not the type of man to throw customers the "It needs a rewire" conversation but this place needs it before anyone lives in it, this is not a patch up job/just fix a couple of fittings type of thing. Told him my price, told him to get other quotes, told him (in the text messages as well) NOT TO TURN IT BACK ON. I think in a court of law that would stand...... BTW no phone call yet about the rewire but the door to the flat has been boarded up. He must be taking this seriously???

 

[jaypp]

i don't think what you're legally allowed to do comes into it really (edit; generally and within reason). for example, i'm not legally allowed to grab a random child by the scruff of their neck and yank them backwards, but if that child was about to step out into the path of an oncoming vehicle, i'd do it without hesitation.

 

[jones750]

Where would I find this document? Thank you

 

[trev]

Where would I find this document? Thank you

An electrical danger notice? Well if you're really struggling with the wording there's a thread on here somewhere titled exactly that.