Competency to turn off (condemn) circuits?

Discuss Competency to turn off (condemn) circuits? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

J

jones750

Hi there,

I am wondering how much power people have in the event of coming across a dangerous circuit. Do you have the power to be able to terminate a circuit and lock it off to prevent use, until certain works are met? Or do you advise the owner not to use the circuit? Are there any certain governing bodies that you have to contact to inform about these issues if come across?

thank you for future replies.
 
remove L and N cables from MCB and N bar. document what you have done and get customer to sign it.
 
I think you can turn off the circuit but I don't think you can lock it off as it is still the owners property. But I would try and obtain permission from the owner to lock it off but if they say no, there's not much you can do except isolate the circuit and leave.

Jay
 
You have no statuary rights whatsoever. Some agencies do such as the DNO and the likes of the HSE or M&Q inspectors, I’ve seen them in action. They have the power and they know it.

Disconnecting the circuit leaves you wide open to accusations of bullying a customer in to having work done. Added to which it’s not your property.

Switch off, inform the customer and walk away. What they do afterwards isn’t your concern.
 
If you knowingly leave a dangerous circuit live and someone gets hurt............. on your head be It as they say, how could you justify it ?
 
To sumarise the above;

If you find a dangerous circuit, piece of equipment etc.
INFORM THE CUSTOMER unless it is immediately life or property threatening i.e likey to catch fire before you can speak to someone.

If the customer agrees, isolate, disconnect or lock off, only what the customer agrees to.
Document it and get it signed.

If the customer disagrees, get them to sign to say so.
If they refuse you have other actions to perform.

The Gas regs have a greater legal standing than the 17th Electrical, but as a Gasafe registered person I have no legal power to turn off or disconnect a gas supply without the owners permission.


,
 
Disconnect and isolate IMO, inform customer naturally, if somebody is killed because all you have done is turned off circuit down to you isn't it?, you know they will have it back on again!!.
 
You can download an official document that says about the dangers. Would cover your --- if customer doesnt pay attention.
 
KAS1 said:
If you knowingly leave a dangerous circuit live and someone gets hurt............. on your head be It as they say, how could you justify it ?
Click to expand...

responsibilty for any installation remains with the property owner if private / residential , or duty holder if its commercial.

you inform them verbally and follow it up in writing , job done.

i'd like to see it contested in court those that think an electrician is responsible for someone elses crappy wiring for no other reason that they are an electrician and have seen it................
 
If a car fails an mot due to having no brakes does the garage take the car off the owner or issue the correct paperwork advising the dangers of continuing to use the car.
 
No it issues a failure certificate and wont have a valid MOT which you will get arrested for, a dangerous circuit would be a civil case. 2 completely different things.
 
I am in the camp that would have no problem in locking off/disconnecting a circuit that had an immediate danger and/or threat to life present on it.
Most things found in my sphere of work can be rectified easily and cheaply and I have yet to encounter a customer that would rather endure a directly dangerous situation rather than have it fixed. But if I did, I would make it as safe as possible before leaving it.
I know I may be leaving myself open to accusations of interfering with equipment that doesn't belong to me, but I would rather take every precaution in my capabilities.
I am pretty sure in most situations I could probably pull something out of the EAWR to back me up.


EDIT: Will return to the debate to see what slating I got in a bit, off to cook tea now...
 
Dillb said:
No it issues a failure certificate and wont have a valid MOT which you will get arrested for, a dangerous circuit would be a civil case. 2 completely different things.
Click to expand...
Point I'm making is the garage has advised you your car is dangerous to use and issued the paperwork to say so that's all we can do as electricians issue danger notice isolate and if cutomer accepts this all ok if not put it in writing. If you disconnect circuit from cu what's stopping customer putting it back when you have gone. What you goning to do start ripping the circuit out the walls.
 
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Equipment is the owners property no right to lock/cut off. Issue written warning and if possible get customer to sign. If, at worst case, inform DNO and they may respond if a potential threat to their network/equipment.
 
biff55 said:
responsibilty for any installation remains with the property owner if private / residential , or duty holder if its commercial.

you inform them verbally and follow it up in writing , job done.

i'd like to see it contested in court those that think an electrician is responsible for someone elses crappy wiring for no other reason that they are an electrician and have seen it................
Click to expand...

You make a good point, but if things were so bad and there was a chance of children in the premises being harmed if say a particular circuit was left available, I think I would side with the kids rather than the dopey parents and make safe.
 
We're also not legally entitled to disconnect circuits if the property owner refuses permission but the way I look at it is if I disconnect a circuit with the owners permission to test it and it fails due to a dangerous fault then I have no obligation to reconnect it until it's repaired and safe. Not being allowed to disconnect and refusing to reconnect are not the same thing.
 
Marvo said:
We're also not legally entitled to disconnect circuits if the property owner refuses permission but the way I look at it is if I disconnect a circuit with the owners permission to test it and it fails due to a dangerous fault then I have no obligation to reconnect it until it's repaired and safe. Not being allowed to disconnect and refusing to reconnect are not the same thing.
Click to expand...

Ah here he is ....... the voice of reason.

What took you so long bonny lad ......... a sleeping elephant on the road??
 
I caused a commotion on a decent homes programme a few years back, a woman had severe OCD and wouldn't allow any of us in here house because of the mess we'd generate so we waited until she went into hospital and her son let us in to do the periodic.

A list a defects as long as your arm was (legitimately) produced one of which was no earth facility, we had 2 days to rewire, install a kitchen and bathroom. You could barely swing a cat in that place when we were all at full speed.

Poor old bugger died during the night of day 2 so we needn't have busted a gut after all
 
Geordie Spark said:
Ah here he is ....... the voice of reason.

What took you so long bonny lad ......... a sleeping elephant on the road??
Click to expand...

I'm supposed to be going out tonight and I don't anything clean to wear. If you've ever ironed a grass-skirt you'd know why I've been busy ;).
 
Right or wrong, we are not the Electrical Police, and therefore have no right in law, to deprive a customer the use of his private property. Them's the facts of the matter!!

As the old saying goes you can't educate pork, so all you can do is leave the offending circuit in a de-energised condition (MCB Off or fuse Removed from carrier) and issue a ''Danger Notice''!! If the customer then wishes to switch the MCB on, or replace the fuse in it's carrier, that's solely down to that person's actions, ...it's not your problem!! You as an electrician have complied with your Duty of Care....
 
A good example is what I came across 3 weeks ago. Landlord called, needs two broken light fittings re-newing + an EICR for a large 3 bed/two story flat above a shop (unoccupied). Got the keys and off I went, found the two shattered fittings, went to the C/U and opened it up straight away. This is a new board (12 months old) with burn marks on the wall above it!?!?

One of the Neutral bars is burning out. L-E and L-N = 141V on the tails. The main incomer is in the disused shop below with no iso switch in the flat and no access to the shop. The 12 way/duel RCD board in the flat is also feeding the shop below, I have no idea about the the state of the shop that has been standing dormant for years (about 7-9 years I think).......

Q. What would you do???

I turned off the C/U iso. Called the landlord and told him that the electrical installation is unsafe and needs a FULL investigation before a fire starts "I have commend it". I took a couple of pics of the board, sent him a few long texts and saved them all on my laptop to cover my back. I'm not the type of man to throw customers the "It needs a rewire" conversation but this place needs it before anyone lives in it, this is not a patch up job/just fix a couple of fittings type of thing. Told him my price, told him to get other quotes, told him (in the text messages as well) NOT TO TURN IT BACK ON. I think in a court of law that would stand...... BTW no phone call yet about the rewire but the door to the flat has been boarded up. He must be taking this seriously???
 
i don't think what you're legally allowed to do comes into it really (edit; generally and within reason). for example, i'm not legally allowed to grab a random child by the scruff of their neck and yank them backwards, but if that child was about to step out into the path of an oncoming vehicle, i'd do it without hesitation.
 
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I don't know if there's an actual legally accepted wording of it if I'm honest. As long as you're saying in very clear language that circuit X is dangerous for the following reasons A B C
and it states that it should not be energised under any circumstances. Providing your client signs to acknowledge receipt of it then I'd say you'd be in the clear.
Could be wrong of course
 
And if I'm not locking the circuit, I put two 'Danger - do not switch on' notices on the point of isolation too, in case the person receiving the danger notice bins it and leaves it to someone else unsuspecting to switch the circuit back on. One has to be removed to get the breaker on, the other doesn't so that there's more of a chance that the warning will be there at a later date if the fault hasn't been rectified.
 
trev said:
I caused a commotion on a decent homes programme a few years back, a woman had severe OCD and wouldn't allow any of us in here house because of the mess we'd generate so we waited until she went into hospital and her son let us in to do the periodic.

A list a defects as long as your arm was (legitimately) produced one of which was no earth facility, we had 2 days to rewire, install a kitchen and bathroom. You could barely swing a cat in that place when we were all at full speed.

Poor old bugger died during the night of day 2 so we needn't have busted a gut after all
Click to expand...

Some people are so inconsiderate :D
 
Engineer54 said:
Right or wrong, we are not the Electrical Police, and therefore have no right in law, to deprive a customer the use of his private property. Them's the facts of the matter!!

As the old saying goes you can't educate pork, so all you can do is leave the offending circuit in a de-energised condition (MCB Off or fuse Removed from carrier) and issue a ''Danger Notice''!! If the customer then wishes to switch the MCB on, or replace the fuse in it's carrier, that's solely down to that person's actions, ...it's not your problem!! You as an electrician have complied with your Duty of Care....
Click to expand...

Totally agree with that. I would also put a warning sticker on DB and take photo of it in situ.
 
Haven’t we enough trouble with Electrical Trainee’s bullying customers in to full rewires because the Electrical Trainee doesn’t understand previous versions of the regs.
Give them the power to legally terrorise customers and ¾ of the country’s domestic supplies will be cut off.
 
Tony said:
Haven’t we enough trouble with Electrical Trainee’s bullying customers in to full rewires because the Electrical Trainee doesn’t understand previous versions of the regs.
Give them the power to legally terrorise customers and ¾ of the country’s domestic supplies will be cut off.
Click to expand...

I know a gassafe lad that seems to do that. He only has to look at an appliance and it's condemned!

Me personally, I would notify client if it is not a quick fix. If it was I would just sort it out there and then. If not I would; isolate cct, written warning notice, sticker, photo, home! In that order!
 
A disabled friend Dave was told he had to have the boiler replaced as it was failing the pressure hold test. New boiler dully fitted it still failed but the plumber cleared off with £X000 in his pocket.
I traced the leak to a gas fire. Called the plumber and stood over him while he fixed the fire then invited him to come and have a word with Dave and I. He left minus a cheque for £1000. Dave’s sister in law ran a letting agency, said plumber lost all his work there as well.
 
Some years ago I came across a very and I do mean VERY dangerous installation,There were numerous issues that posed a threat to life and limb,however the guy didn't care and just wanted the power back on.There were young kids in the property and the situation did not sit well with me and I was unhappy leaving it as it was,then I spotted my way out.the meter tails were old VIR,s from the service head to meter and meter to CU,they were in such poor condition that they were bare in places,I removed the service fuse and rang the DNO,After outlining my concerns to one of their engineers(if you ever have a major issue just ask to speak to the duty engineer) he advised me that he had one of their men en route to the address in question and for me to leave and take the fuse with me,as it was their property not the householder,and if when his man got there,the installation was as bad as I had stated then the engineer would also remove the meter and it would not be replaced until an inspection certificate with all defects rectified was produced.The customer swore at me quite a bit,but I slept that night without having nightmares about burning houses and dead children.Incidentally the initial call was to a loss of power that had actually blown the service fuse,sometimes you just have to decide how far you are willing to go.
 
There is a lot of people with a lot of opinions about this matter and I rekon my opinion is probably the most diplomatic
Advise customer the circuit is unsafe and detail potential dangers (both verbally and written) make a record of findings, request permission to lock off circuit, if customer refuses get them to sign a disclaimer to cover your backside, place warning stickers/labels on CCU leaving circuit OFF but not locked out. Its then up to customer to energise circuit and if the gaff burns down at least you have performed your duty of care and have the evidence to back you up when HSE come sniffing. And at same time you havnt pi$$ed off the client.
Everyone's a winner.
 
Tony said:
A disabled friend Dave was told he had to have the boiler replaced as it was failing the pressure hold test. New boiler dully fitted it still failed but the plumber cleared off with £X000 in his pocket.
I traced the leak to a gas fire. Called the plumber and stood over him while he fixed the fire then invited him to come and have a word with Dave and I. He left minus a cheque for £1000. Dave’s sister in law ran a letting agency, said plumber lost all his work there as well.
Click to expand...

The test formerly known as "Gas Soundness Test" - Now known as "Gas Tightness Test", :)
 
phil d said:
Some years ago I came across a very and I do mean VERY dangerous installation,There were numerous issues that posed a threat to life and limb,however the guy didn't care and just wanted the power back on.There were young kids in the property and the situation did not sit well with me and I was unhappy leaving it as it was,then I spotted my way out.the meter tails were old VIR,s from the service head to meter and meter to CU,they were in such poor condition that they were bare in places,I removed the service fuse and rang the DNO,After outlining my concerns to one of their engineers(if you ever have a major issue just ask to speak to the duty engineer) he advised me that he had one of their men en route to the address in question and for me to leave and take the fuse with me,as it was their property not the householder,and if when his man got there,the installation was as bad as I had stated then the engineer would also remove the meter and it would not be replaced until an inspection certificate with all defects rectified was produced.The customer swore at me quite a bit,but I slept that night without having nightmares about burning houses and dead children.Incidentally the initial call was to a loss of power that had actually blown the service fuse,sometimes you just have to decide how far you are willing to go.
Click to expand...
just done a condition report with six 1s, seven 2s and four 3s identified within 10 mins...

the metering had been removed and the landlord had been told it would not be reinstated until the installation had been subjected to a full condition report and any findings rectified...
 
GLENNSPARK said:
just done a condition report with six 1s, seven 2s and four 3s identified within 10 mins...

the metering had been removed and the landlord had been told it would not be reinstated until the installation had been subjected to a full condition report and any findings rectified...
Click to expand...

We’re back to the DNO having statutory rights. Thank god Electrical Trainee’s don’t.
 

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