Consumer unit in bathroom

[mainline]

See #38. Is said cupboard providing an  EFFECTIVE barrier.

Posted while I was writing

 

[timhoward]

701.32.1 ........................doors, floors and fixed partitions may be taken into account where these  EFECTIVELY limit the extent of locations containing a bath or shower as well as their zones.

See #38. Is said cupboard providing an  EFFECTIVE barrier.

And see #10 ;-)

A cupboard isn't listed as something that can be taken into account to limit a zone, and it says a door has to "effectively" limit the extents of the zones and I'd argue this one doesn't.

 

[LukeD]

It doesn't. But an electric shower mounted in zone 1 is only correctly IP rated for the zone if the cover has not been removed. The cover of an electric shower can only be removed by use of a tool. Same principal could be applied to any item of electrical equipment, if one was desperate to make it comply.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, there's no way I would want a consumer unit anywhere in a bathroom.

THis...Rules and regs dont make a lot of sense at times . For me this install is a Joke and a mockery of what is safe etc . That telephone shower hose can easily reach and spray water directly onto the cupboard .lets see if anyone happy with the regs would let their child take a shower in this bathroom !

 

[nicebutdim]

.

I think most would agree that the situation is far from ideal and I doubt many, if any would commission such an installation.

The problem isn't whether or not anyone likes the situation presented, but what problem it actually presents from a regulatory perspective.

Personally, I'd insist on the removal of that double socket as a precondition of working on the installation, but could only recommend its removal if carrying out an eicr.

Edit: meant to quote the previous post from @LukeD and not even going you attempt editing on a mobile.

 

[davesparks]

Maybe something like this would be acceptable?

IP66 MCB Distribution Boards | Blakley Electrics

Heavy duty Single and Three-Phase IP66 MCB Distribution Boards for installation in extremely wet or very dusty locations.

www.blakley.co.uk

It would improve the situation but there would still be inadequate access to the CU.
Having to stand in a bath is not an adequate access arrangement.

 

[Aaron b]

The cheapest solution is to box it in the cupboard, it's then out of zones and out of reach. It would just be a C3 for access but a bit of a bodge. The ideal and recommended solution is to relocate it.

 

[pirate]

Very interesting thread and many of the comments are extremely pertinent, however I am just astonished that anyone would install that CU in that location. No matter what technical justification might be relevant, it's just a bad installation idea.
A few years ago I was doing some work on a new-build housing estate where all the houses had the CU installed at high level in the downstairs cloakroom. This was a mainstream builder and I am aware the same installation was carried out on other estates. Now, I accept the cloakroom had no bath or shower, but the only way to gain access to the CUs in these houses was by standing on the WC...there's no room to place a ladder or hop-up. I accept these houses passed BC regulations, but in my opinion the CU should not be mounted high up above a WC. A less-able person would find access extremely tricky and indeed hazardous, and for that reason alone it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[littlespark]

We’re all pretty adamant it shouldn’t be there, but the OP questions how it should be coded on an EICR, as it is already there.

I’m wondering originally if that room was an entrance hall…. Ergo, CU was there before the bath was.


Although a keyed lock could easily be fitted to the cupboard door, the suitability of the equipment is not good for the environment.


C2…. Just to make sure it gets done.

 

[timhoward]

Although a keyed lock could easily be fitted to the cupboard door, the suitability of the equipment is not good for the environment.

Agreed. While having it locked is (in some ways) an improvement, there are still issues, in particular that locking it impairs isolating power quickly or restoring power (e.g. lights) quickly.
Daft scenario: someone's alone in the house, having a bath, and the lights trip. Standing in a foot of water in a slippy bath, dripping wet, scrambling for a key to operate a breaker doesn't seem a very acceptable scenario!

I think the Reg 12 guidance in EAWR speaks for itself:
"The suitable means for cutting off the supply (regulation 12(1)(a)) should be in a suitable location regarding the nature of the risks, the availability of people to operate the means and the speed at which operation may be necessary. Access to switches etc should be kept clear and unobstructed, free of tripping and slipping hazards etc;"

The only solution I'd be happy with is putting the whole lot in an IP box or two and extending supply and final circuits to somewhere else.

 

[UNG]

The cheapest solution is to box it in the cupboard, it's then out of zones and out of reach. It would just be a C3 for access but a bit of a bodge. The ideal and recommended solution is to relocate it.

But then that brings up the accessibility of the CU and inconvienence caused to reset a tripped breaker

This is one of those situations where this thread could and probably will end up going round in circles without a solution acceptable to all
Looking at the pictures I would have to question how accessable the CU is for being working on it looks close to the ceiling and above the bath so it is impossible to put a ladder near it to safely access it, no doubt the customer would complain if you scratched the bath as well
The socket for me is a definite no no as it puts the seeds of temptation there for plugging in whatever tech someone wants to take into the bathroom while they have a bath or shower. I read somewhere recently deaths from electrocution using tech while having a bath are on the rise

Daft scenario: someone's alone in the house, having a bath, and the lights trip. Standing in a foot of water in a slippy bath, dripping wet, scrambling for a key to operate a breaker doesn't seem a very acceptable scenario!

I was thinking similar someone in the shower and another person knocks on the bathroom door asking the person in the shower to reset a tripped breaker

The only solution I'd be happy with is putting the whole lot in an IP box or two and extending supply and final circuits to somewhere else.

Or relocate the bathroom!!. Why create work for the electrician because the plumber or more likely the not so handy handyman screwed up

I think any solution where the installation remains as is with locks, IP enclosures etc is always going to be flawed the homeowner isn't going to want danger and warning stickers placed on the cupboard doors I can see it now "This cupboard door must remain locked while the bath or shower is in use".
User complacency IMO is the biggest danger here and safety can so easily compromised when whatever solution is adopted or agreed on is degraded over time and is eventually forgotten that is when someone is injured or becomes a fatality and questions are asked as to why it was done like that and why was it not rectified when the problem was highlighted

 

[Midwest]

The CU’s are in a wall unit, any self respecting kitchen/bathroom furniture installer (think that’s the right title) would tell you that . So they are not in a cupboard, so that negates that part of the debate.

 

[Midwest]

In fact the wall unit has been put over the CU’s, so they are not materially ‘in’ the wall unit anyway.

 

[pc1966]

Can the CU and related controls be reasonably operated without standing in the bath?

I know lots of dumb things have been done in the past, but if this was a new build then surely the needs of disabled (or elderly with limited mobility) access would also make such stupid unusual choice of location a no-no?

 

[pc1966]

Was that always the bathroom?

Looking at the size of the CU I'm guessing it is a large property, so I wonder if a utility room has been converted in to a bathroom. The cabinet looks like it was added afterwards to me as neatly cut (is still a stupid approach) and if the CU was put there then I would have expected it on top of the back-board.

Dumb either way!

 

[mainline]

Wonder how big the bathroom is, as it seems a big property ?.

Relocate the socket outlet 2.5 m away from the bath.

 

[DPG]

Looks bloody awkward to clean the window as well. Can't get near it.

 

[GBDamo]

An outlet socket on a landing directly outside a bathroom door less than an MTR away would be compliant as it's behind a door.

An airing cupboard with electrical heating etc in a bathroom behind a door is compliant.

Electrical equipment under a bath is also compliant.

An electric shower which has just a plastic cover and also has uninsulated connections inside is also compliant.

Because is behind a barrier, it's technically not in a zone.

If not in a zone, then IP rating etc shouldn't be an issue. ?

You're making some really good points.

None of us on here, I hope, would install this CU in this location but we may be put in the situation of advising someone on "is it safe/compliant".

The vast majority of my work is commercial and the answer is always pony up and put it right. One example was a national storage company that decided to have showers fitted in all their sites mostly in the disabled WC, don't know who did it but very few of the showers were RCD protected and none of the other circuits pressent in the room were. So that's lights, whatever random circuits passed through he rooms. In the end most the showers were disconnected.

I can see why domestic solutions have to be a little more creative, the customer may not have the money to fully correct and a significant safety improvement will be better than no action. Just make sure you offer the full correction in writing.

In this case I'd quote for the CU to be moved to a compliant location. Get their refual in writing, email is a powerful tool, before suggesting the socket is removed and the door to the cupboard should be screwed shut, a lock will just be removed and left off, but then the CU is not easily accessible I the event of a trip.

What a mess, don't envy domestic sparks.

 

[GBDamo]

Very interesting thread and many of the comments are extremely pertinent, however I am just astonished that anyone would install that CU in that location. No matter what technical justification might be relevant, it's just a bad installation idea.
A few years ago I was doing some work on a new-build housing estate where all the houses had the CU installed at high level in the downstairs cloakroom. This was a mainstream builder and I am aware the same installation was carried out on other estates. Now, I accept the cloakroom had no bath or shower, but the only way to gain access to the CUs in these houses was by standing on the WC...there's no room to place a ladder or hop-up. I accept these houses passed BC regulations, but in my opinion the CU should not be mounted high up above a WC. A less-able person would find access extremely tricky and indeed hazardous, and for that reason alone it shouldn't be allowed.

It is without doubt wuckfittery of the highest order and Its not as rare as it should be.

 

[ipf]

Besides all else, I would definitely call it dangerous.... having to work on a consumer unit, balancing with one foot on each edge of that bath.

 

[LukeD]

Besides all else, I would definitely call it dangerous.... having to work on a consumer unit, balancing with one foot on each edge of that bath.

Good point .Safe direct access should be important . Looked at job yesterday .New luxury conversion .CB is about 8 foot high and super close to the top of the stairs . Its just daft