"Domestic installer " due to be binned?

[Pete999]

I got an offer years back to be an electrical civvy on the Iraq and Afghan camps, some serious wedge at the time and I was very tempted until I'd deliberated for so long I got beaten to the news I was going to be a daddy, at which point all bets were off. Give it another ten years and I could consider the Antarctic research station for six months, though.

I did 12 month on top of Mt Olympus in Cyprus, not nice as it sounds, and if you have a young family it's hard to take any lengthy times away from your loved ones, think long and hard before you commit Mate, it ain't all roses believe me.

 

[ruston]

I did 12 month on top of Mt Olympus in Cyprus, not nice as it sounds, and if you have a young family it's hard to take any lengthy times away from your loved ones, think long and hard before you commit Mate, it ain't all roses believe me.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[UNG]

Whatever happens it would be great if all of the nations could come up with a better way of getting into the industry for those of us who're too old and have too many bills to pay to afford apprenticeship wages.

If an industry sets a level of standards why should that industry be expected to dilute the level of those standards to allow people entry into that industry that don't have the time, can't afford the lower earnings while learning and all the other excuses that are used to gain a fast track into the industry

As @ipf mentioned the DI scheme was, and currently still is, an attractive resettlement course for many folks leaving the armed forces, it was run as a 3 or 5 week course titled "NAPIT full scope domestic electrician" or something very like that. A number of my ex-colleagues have done it with varying degrees of business success and it was a course I considered but rejected as I was moving back to Scotland where the qualifications mean effectively diddly squat to SELECT/SJIB when it comes to registering as an electrician.

NAPIT originally set out to maintain standards in inspection and testing and now they are like the rest whatever you want to call it the domestic "electrician" / "installer" once the domestic and installer is dropped it all ends up as I'm an electrician which is misleading, I've lost count of the number of times when talking to these "electricians" how often I hear I don't understand 3 phase.
It annoys me that the industry feels the need to divide itself up into domestic, commercial and industrial to the point that is an electrician really an electrician anymore with the all encompassing skills that were taught in the past in an industry that is getting evermore complicated.
There has always been a divide in the industry with electricians who were happier as installation electricians and those who would also tackle faultfinding and the more technical tasks this was generally recognised with the JIB grading system

So yeah, a better way of recognising prior learning for those of us with a lot of electrical/electronics experience and a more coherent approach from all of the industry bodies would be nice, but that's a wishlist I never expect to see happen.

I was talking to a butcher a few weeks ago that was thinking of retraining as a veterinary surgeon as he felt he had transferable skills??
All joking aside would there be a problem if these assumed transferable skills were put to a written exam or a practical test rather than the standardised assessment that most seem to want

Although they were much maligned in the 80's the skillcentres with their 6 month courses turned out some good installation electricians that could work in most of the industries sectors, when they finished the course they were not the finished electrician and still had a lot to learn and skills to hone but they had a good base to work up from

 

[dodger421]

I’m very much not arguing or asking that the standards be diluted, nor am I looking for a “fast track” into the industry. What I would like is recognition of the equivalence of the training and experience I already have and a way to simply top that up rather than starting from scratch at the very bottom of a ladder I’d already been most of the way up. I’m sorry that having pursued a parallel career path for a decade sounds like an excuse.

An example being 3 phase. I learned the theory and the practical of motors, generators, distribution and all the rest to the same depth as the Level 3 2365 course but my courses had a different module number so aren’t recognised. A test that gets me to prove that I have retained that knowledge would suffice, rather than making me go back to college just to get the correct number on a certificate.

Since leaving I’ve primarily worked on 3 phase equipment and distribution boards. I’ve learnt how to properly terminate and gland SWA and SY, as well as seeing how not to do it. I’ve designed, installed and tested new circuits for both the plant floor and the various offices. I’ve actually done inspection, testing and certifying of my work, with a calibrated MFT and everything, which is more than I can say of the two main electrical contractors my employer uses. Both l of them are SELECT and NICEIC registered companies with graded electricians whose work has repeatedly been found to not meet the wiring regs, and I’ve not yet seen them break any test equipment out after running in entire new panels or LV distribution circuits.

None of that actually counts for anything in Scotland it seems, although there is the mature candidate assessment route in England the Scottish equivalent is given only a brief mention by SJIB and I’ve struggled to find any mention of the required courses other than having to complete a FICA assessment (which I’m confident I’d pass from what I’ve read
about it).

 

[Rockingit]

I did 12 month on top of Mt Olympus in Cyprus, not nice as it sounds, and if you have a young family it's hard to take any lengthy times away from your loved ones, think long and hard before you commit Mate, it ain't all roses believe me.

Appreciate the thoughts. Like I say, in another ten years - maybe. I'll be too fooked physically by then to still be touring but not quite old enough to sell up and buy a boat in warm seas. And.... I'm used to being away from the family although only normally for 5-6-7 week kind of stints.

 

[Rockingit]

I was talking to a butcher a few weeks ago that was thinking of retraining as a veterinary surgeon as he felt he had transferable skills??

Trainee vets actually have to do a compulsorary module working in aberttoirs, true thing.

 

[LukeD]

I think a DI course that truly trains anyone to be allowed to do domestic work only is FINE .But the course must run long enough and the exam at the end detailed to be able to only allow the best to pass. But companies just want turn over and revenue !

 

[UNG]

Trainee vets actually have to do a compulsorary module working in aberttoirs, true thing.

That is why I used the example

 

[UNG]

I think a DI course that truly trains anyone to be allowed to do domestic work only is FINE .But the course must run long enough and the exam at the end detailed to be able to only allow the best to pass. But companies just want turn over and revenue !

But that would fail on the time taken to complete the course for most

 

[Dustydazzler]

a youtuber has made a video about this …

 

[LukeD]

The ending is so obvious ... Someone will earn millions from "filling the gap"

 

[Dustydazzler]

The ending is so obvious ... Someone will earn millions from "filling the gap"

Of course they will , as one door closes another opens

CPS schemes will offer 1 week intense training courses to join their scam , at probably a grand

 

[GBDamo]

If an industry sets a level of standards why should that industry be expected to dilute the level of those standards to allow people entry into that industry that don't have the time, can't afford the lower earnings while learning and all the other excuses that are used to gain a fast track into the industry


NAPIT originally set out to maintain standards in inspection and testing and now they are like the rest whatever you want to call it the domestic "electrician" / "installer" once the domestic and installer is dropped it all ends up as I'm an electrician which is misleading, I've lost count of the number of times when talking to these "electricians" how often I hear I don't understand 3 phase.
It annoys me that the industry feels the need to divide itself up into domestic, commercial and industrial to the point that is an electrician really an electrician anymore with the all encompassing skills that were taught in the past in an industry that is getting evermore complicated.
There has always been a divide in the industry with electricians who were happier as installation electricians and those who would also tackle faultfinding and the more technical tasks this was generally recognised with the JIB grading system


I was talking to a butcher a few weeks ago that was thinking of retraining as a veterinary surgeon as he felt he had transferable skills??
All joking aside would there be a problem if these assumed transferable skills were put to a written exam or a practical test rather than the standardised assessment that most seem to want

Although they were much maligned in the 80's the skillcentres with their 6 month courses turned out some good installation electricians that could work in most of the industries sectors, when they finished the course they were not the finished electrician and still had a lot to learn and skills to hone but they had a good base to work up from

Regarding the Domestic/ Commercial/Industrial delineation, I think it is due to efficiency.

The industry has become far more regulated, refer to the ever expanding waistline of BS7671, and increasingly specialised.

Most capable sparks could read up on the requirements and work outside their field competently and compliantly, but efficiently?

I've knocked a few jobs back due to lack of experience/comfort.

One was a run of 240mm 4 core SWA from a 1000A bus bar chamber to a TPN board in a GRP enclosure. Just too much learning and not enough skills...and a very twitchy sphincter.

I actually think the industry would benefit from splitting the qualifications and better tailoring them to the specific sectors with bridging courses where required.

 

[LukeD]

Regarding the Domestic/ Commercial/Industrial delineation, I think it is due to efficiency.

The industry has become far more regulated, refer to the ever expanding waistline of BS7671, and increasingly specialised.

Most capable sparks could read up on the requirements and work outside their field competently and compliantly, but efficiently?

I've knocked a few jobs back due to lack of experience/comfort.

One was a run of 240mm 4 core SWA from a 1000A bus bar chamber to a TPN board in a GRP enclosure. Just too much learning and not enough skills...and a very twitchy sphincter.

I actually think the industry would benefit from splitting the qualifications and better tailoring them to the specific sectors with bridging courses where required.

100% . There is ZERO reason why a kitchen fitter cannot be trained to do the electrics in a new domestic kitchen etc .Within a well structured 2 month full time course . If thats the guys career , why bog him down with stuff he does not wish to do etc ?

 

[mattg4321]

Disagree. Working on existing ring finals is actually relatively difficult compared with a new ring final. You need to test the existing circuit and make a judgement as to whether it is in good condition and also suitable for potentially adding extra load/circuit length to.

2 months is nothing like enough time to do that from scratch.

Kitchen fitters should stick to fitting kitchens unless they’ve done the relevant courses in gas/electrical etc and are competent in these fields.

 

[Zerax]

As I've said before on here... the whole qualification path needs a radical re-vamp ! The 'tweaking' that's done on a regular basis just increases the mess.

I think there needs to be a single structure for all entrants regardless of experience/aptitude/age etc... those more able will simply progress at a quicker pace than others. Theoretical exams and practical assessments should become more complex/challenging as the course progresses. At the end, you become a 'qualified electrician'... but there should be intermediate stepping stones to allow for achievement to be recognised.

Once I've sorted out the training scheme... I'm going to focus on re-writing all those appalling overpriced IET publications !

 

[UNG]

Regarding the Domestic/ Commercial/Industrial delineation, I think it is due to efficiency. a money making marketing opportunity

Fixed that for you

The industry has become far more regulated, refer to the ever expanding waistline of BS7671, and increasingly specialised.

The industry hasn't really become that much more regulated there are too many out there claiming to be electricians with little or no qualifications or experience yet they were accepted and given some credibility by the CPS's who saw an easy money making opportunity
By creating "specialisms" you again create money making opportunities as more mostly uneccessary courses are created

Most capable sparks could read up on the requirements and work outside their field competently and compliantly, but efficiently?

I agree, a lot depends on how capable and competent the person is though

I've knocked a few jobs back due to lack of experience/comfort.

One was a run of 240mm 4 core SWA from a 1000A bus bar chamber to a TPN board in a GRP enclosure. Just too much learning and not enough skills...and a very twitchy sphincter.

A bread and butter job that one

I actually think the industry would benefit from splitting the qualifications and better tailoring them to the specific sectors with bridging courses where required.

The industry is already overloaded with unnecessary meaningless courses so why create more by splitting qualifications and creating partially skilled electricians

I think you would then need to redefine the term electrician so as not to misrepresent the operative and also mislead the customer / client as to what the person(s) they are employing are actually trained as,

 

[nicebutdim]

How many apprentices gain significant experience outside of a fairly narrow field, during their training?

 

[Dustydazzler]

I’ve worked with ‘electricians’ who have never installed or even touched ‘Micc‘ but are approved contractors with a scam. Just because you have limited knowledge or experience doesn’t make you a bad electrician.

I can drive a car but not a bus, does that automatically make me a bad driver….??

 

[Vortigern]

I have always maintained that DI is easy really. I think the theory aspect is very simple as it goes. The practical aspects take a lot more learning. I believe that a few days course could easily equip you with the necessary theory. But again the practice, i.e. on site skills is not taught. This is where it all breaks down. I got a level three with all the qualies and asked them to have a look at the earthing and bonding and report back to me the condition before we started work. They did not have the faintest clue as to even where to look for the incoming water pipe. Thirty minutes later I pointed out their inability was due to lack of experience and that part was what they needed under a mentor to even become a proper DI. It is often a requirement that two years experience are stated as a necessary qualification to even do a D.I. course, the problem is that no college or private trainer rigorously enforces that. If they did the whole thing might be a very different picture.