Domestic Installer

[GLENNSPARK]

I agree totally. I train hard and am still training in effect, I don't agree with short courses allowing people to practice but I feel that people need some training to become interested in our industry.

well i`m sorry pal but this really is a load of old crap.

if folk want to get into our industry then they should go down the proper, recognised route...and this does not include drifting in off the back of a short course.

its a Min. of 3 years at college...backed up by stand alone courses...such as the C&G2392..and the C&G2391...or whatever they`v replaced it with now...

anything else is rubbish.

 

[bigash]

Well we all have our own opinion like I said I DO NOT THINK these courses should allow those who undertake them to practice our industry but merely lead on to doing a full NVQ apprenticeship route to becoming qualified.

That's my five pence worth now I'm off to deal with my family.

 

[Engineer54]

Well we all have our own opinion like I said I DO NOT THINK these courses should allow those who undertake them to practice our industry but merely lead on to doing a full NVQ apprenticeship route to becoming qualified.

That's my five pence worth now I'm off to deal with my family.

Now think about what you're saying here, who in their right mind is going to cough up a few thousand pounds to gain what effectively amounts to a 2382 qualification. Forget the PAT test and Part Pee nonsense qualifications the Training Centre's throw in, they are not worth the paper they are written on as far as an electrician's training is concerned. Then, according to your view, these wannabe's will then go on to complete a full G&G 2357 NVQ 3 training course, costing an extra many more thousands, AND need to be employed in the industry, to complete the NVQ 3 side of things. ...It's never going to happen is it??

You may as well just start at the beginning and either go down the local college route of signing up for the 2365 then NVQ or the 2357/NVQ. ...No need whatsoever to go anywhere near a Training Centre, unless of course you're intentions are from the very start, to enter the trade via the back door for a fee and becoming a cash cow for the Scams!!!

Holding the C&G's 2382 and NVQ 3 does not alas equate to you being a qualified electrician. Both of those qualifications are merely supplementary or add-on qualifications, that are basically meaningless without a core qualification.

To be honest, all these supplementary qualifications, should be restricted to those holding one of the core qualifications. It will at a stroke clear up many of the misconceptions, as well as restricting these training centres from being able to offer these industry killing fast track courses....

 

[gutterball]

I lost a rewire job last year because i wasn't part p. tried to explain to them part p didn't exist up here but they weren't having it. no part p and your not a qualified spark wtf.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Domestic Installers are a kind of 'dumbed down' electrician - they work to standard circuit arrangements so don't need to know about any of the difficult bits like cable calcs, phasor diagrams, phase balancing etc.
It's 'electrics by numbers' - lights sockets, cookers, showers and maybe an immersion heater.

i know a few 40 years, man and boy, worked on everything electricians, that now register as a Domestic Installer, because they ar winding down.

So they are both. Both a master electrician yet registered on a demented installer scheme

 

[MDJ]

i know a few 40 years, man and boy, worked on everything electricians, that now register as a Domestic Installer, because they ar winding down.

So they are both. Both a master electrician yet registered on a demented installer scheme

Like Tel you mean? a proper spark who has slowed down as he is near retirement?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I'll let Tel reply to that!

he didn't look very slow when I worked with him......in fact im twenty three years junior and ashamed to say he made me look tardy

 

[MDJ]

I'll let Tel reply to that!

he didn't look very slow when I worked with him......in fact im twenty three years junior and ashamed to say he made me look tardy

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was replying to your post, you said guys who are slowing down and going into domestics, there are a few here and fair play to them, Tel was a mere example. I have huge respect for Tel.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Sorry, didn't mean to appear defensive. I knew you were being sarky, its okay!

 

[Badged01]

Like Tel you mean? a proper spark who has slowed down as he is near retirement?

I thought Tel was already a retired plumber now moonlighting as an electrician ...... or was that the Geordie fella!?!?

I'm hanging around too much on this forum with these fellas, Im starting to go senile as well!

 

[imago]

If you set aside the qualification/experience issue for a moment (difficult I know!) the concept of a DI is OK as far as I can see. Given the way that the construction industry works now, and the likely work that people will do in their trades then breaking some down into separate areas makes sense.

If you are only likely to work on domestic properties then a large chunk of a traditional apprenticeship becomes redundant. To be honest some of it was a waste of time anyway IMHO. All that cutting and filing nonsense, not to mention spending a few months in the stores etc.

It's the way all trades are shaping up now. Take plastering as an example. Time served back in the day meant that you could apply lime or gypsum based material onto boards, lath and browning etc. Screeding floors, rendering walls, making covings etc etc etc. All went together in a four year apprenticeship. Most plasterers training today will only apply gypsum based skim to boards with occasional use of bonding coat first. So the training has changed to reflect the separation of rendering from plastering and making them into separate disciplines for example.

BTW, the apprentice trained spreads that I know are all very pi55ed off about "short course" merchants undercutting them on price, and not having a clue about the full range of plastering skills.

It's no consolation to anyone here I'm sure, but it's an industry wide issue not just the electrical part of things.

 

[Meggerman]

Holding the C&G's 2382 and NVQ 3 does not alas equate to you being a qualified electrician. Both of those qualifications are merely supplementary or add-on qualifications, that are basically meaningless without a core qualification.

....

The 2356 and 2357 both are full electrician qualifications. Both require underpinning knowledge as well as practical. They are not add ons, they are the full ticket.

 

[Meggerman]

Think you need a just a little more than just an Add-on qualification to get a JIB ELECTRICIANS card thankfully!!!!

Do you even have a JIB card?

 

[ipf]

If you set aside the qualification/experience issue for a moment (difficult I know!) the concept of a DI is OK as far as I can see. Given the way that the construction industry works now, and the likely work that people will do in their trades then breaking some down into separate areas makes sense.

If you are only likely to work on domestic properties then a large chunk of a traditional apprenticeship becomes redundant. To be honest some of it was a waste of time anyway IMHO. All that cutting and filing nonsense, not to mention spending a few months in the stores etc.

It's the way all trades are shaping up now. Take plastering as an example. Time served back in the day meant that you could apply lime or gypsum based material onto boards, lath and browning etc. Screeding floors, rendering walls, making covings etc etc etc. All went together in a four year apprenticeship. Most plasterers training today will only apply gypsum based skim to boards with occasional use of bonding coat first. So the training has changed to reflect the separation of rendering from plastering and making them into separate disciplines for example.

BTW, the apprentice trained spreads that I know are all very pi55ed off about "short course" merchants undercutting them on price, and not having a clue about the full range of plastering skills.

It's no consolation to anyone here I'm sure, but it's an industry wide issue not just the electrical part of things.

Well, when I came into the trade and for the majority of time I've been in it we had....

No qualification - Labourer
A certificate qualified - Basic Electrician
B certificate qualified - Approved Electrician
C certificate qualified - Technician.

What the hell is wrong with that, still 4 grades but three time served. I know the A cert was pretty basic, but at least it was time served and meant time WAS spent learning to do the job.

 

[shanky887614]

The 2356 and 2357 both are full electrician qualifications. Both require underpinning knowledge as well as practical. They are not add ons, they are the full ticket.

The 2356 is being fazed out

2330 and 2356 are being replaced by 2357

2330 = tech cert
2356 = nvq lvl3
2357 = 2330+2356

I completed the 2330 lvl3 but had to do the 2357 because jtl fazed 2356 out by that point.

In other words I will have been training for 4.5 years ish

 

[imago]

Well, when I came into the trade and for the majority of time I've been in it we had....

No qualification - Labourer
A certificate qualified - Basic Electrician
B certificate qualified - Approved Electrician
C certificate qualified - Technician.

What the hell is wrong with that, still 4 grades but three time served. I know the A cert was pretty basic, but at least it was time served and meant time WAS spent learning to do the job.

There's nothing wrong with it, and that's my point. It's not the fact that a level or grade of electrician exists such as a "Domestic Installer" that's the problem. It's how people are trained, and how relevant the training and qualifications are to the work.

The current set up means that someone with practical experience, gained either working with an electrician or in related trades, are classed and graded at the same level as someone who has never worked in a manual trade at all because both have the minimum requirement which currently is an open book test and membership of a scheme.

Four year apprenticeships across the board are not the answer IMHO as they are too costly and too few companies are able to provide the places. Neither do I think that JIB grading is the answer as they really aren't up to the job. In fact I would suggest that they are in part responsible for the current state of affairs.

Unfortunately there is neither the will nor the funding to create a new system which would be fit for purpose. So anyone hoping things are going to change soon will be disappointed.

 

[Meggerman]

The 2356 is being fazed out

2330 and 2356 are being replaced by 2357

2330 = tech cert
2356 = nvq lvl3
2357 = 2330+2356

I completed the 2330 lvl3 but had to do the 2357 because jtl fazed 2356 out by that point.

In other words I will have been training for 4.5 years ish

2330 was one way of showing underpinning knowledge for the 2356 NVQ3 which was a standalone qual, which as you say, has been phased out. 2357 is an NVQ3 in it's own right, 2365 is underpinning knowledge towards it or you can do 2330 conversion to 2357 as you are doing.

 

[ipf]

There's nothing wrong with it, and that's my point. It's not the fact that a level or grade of electrician exists such as a "Domestic Installer" that's the problem. It's how people are trained, and how relevant the training and qualifications are to the work.

The current set up means that someone with practical experience, gained either working with an electrician or in related trades, are classed and graded at the same level as someone who has never worked in a manual trade at all because both have the minimum requirement which currently is an open book test and membership of a scheme.

Four year apprenticeships across the board are not the answer IMHO as they are too costly and too few companies are able to provide the places. Neither do I think that JIB grading is the answer as they really aren't up to the job. In fact I would suggest that they are in part responsible for the current state of affairs.

Unfortunately there is neither the will nor the funding to create a new system which would be fit for purpose. So anyone hoping things are going to change soon will be disappointed.

Plenty we're in agreement with, I'm sure.
It's the many, many reasons behind the decline that are upsetting and the way the world wise ,money making, entrepeneurs have jumped on the band wagon, even to an extent of infiltrating those who were once recognised as the 'be all and end all' of contracting excellence in terms of regulation, supposedly owned by a registered charity.

 

[Englishman]

2330 was one way of showing underpinning knowledge for the 2356 NVQ3 which was a standalone qual, which as you say, has been phased out. 2357 is an NVQ3 in it's own right, 2365 is underpinning knowledge towards it or you can do 2330 conversion to 2357 as you are doing.

They need to offer nvq3 as a standalone qualification again IMO. Can't ask people who need or want it to go over ground they've already done because they didn't do the nvq3 when they were at college for whatever reason.

 

[shanky887614]

They need to offer nvq3 as a standalone qualification again IMO. Can't ask people who need or want it to go over ground they've already done because they didn't do the nvq3 when they were at college for whatever reason.

if you have 2330 or one of some other courses.

All you need to do is drop into test center do a multichoice renewables test online.

Then nvq section.

Couldnt be simpler