Discuss ECA and ESC announce major partnership in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

I think a reality check is in order here. The NICEIC ECA NAPIT et al are competing businesses, not regulatory bodies. They, like us, are here to make a profit. It's not their fault, it's what the government decided when they introduced PP. This NICEIC/ECA business partnership is a shrewd move, which, if it comes off will significantly strengthen their position and go a significant way to squeezing out their competitors. If the industry wants to replace these businesses with one regulatory body then it should lobby the likes of parliament, IET, BSi and possibly ESC. An independent would need to come forward to spearhead such a campaign. A scheme operator would never do this as to do so would be to sign their own death warrant.To be successful, the campaign would need irrefutable headline stats showing that the present system was not working.

If the NICEIC and ECA had partnered 20 years ago the industry would probably by now have one single compulsory regulatory body and no part P.
 
I think a reality check is in order here. The NICEIC ECA NAPIT et al are competing businesses, not regulatory bodies. They, like us, are here to make a profit. It's not their fault, it's what the government decided when they introduced PP. This NICEIC/ECA business partnership is a shrewd move, which, if it comes off will significantly strengthen their position and go a significant way to squeezing out their competitors. If the industry wants to replace these businesses with one regulatory body then it should lobby the likes of parliament, IET, BSi and possibly ESC. An independent would need to come forward to spearhead such a campaign. A scheme operator would never do this as to do so would be to sign their own death warrant.To be successful, the campaign would need irrefutable headline stats showing that the present system was not working.

If the NICEIC and ECA had partnered 20 years ago the industry would probably by now have one single compulsory regulatory body and no part P.


While I agree with your point it doesn't detract from the fact they them selfs are part of the problem. They talk about great standards etc but as we all know there's plenty of competant scheme members who are incapable of doing the job but are assessed as competant every year. For these two to come together and say we're going to sort this mess out is nothing but comical. They have in part helped to devalue the industry through greed, and now stand in front of the gov committee proclaiming we're the guys to sort this..... Crazy dayz
 
Re: "MOT your home" and "Don't take the "P"".

Could you post a link to these, this is the first that I as a householder have heard of it. If the promotion of you're selective register is to be promoted on the same level, it will be as I said in my first post on this subject, totaly unheard of outside the electrical contracting industry.
By selective I mean you will only promote paid up members of your club. As to the competence of those people I'll keep my peace.

I personally don’t think it’s possible for an organisation that is driven purely for monetary reasons and that doesn’t represent all electricians to run a bi-partisan safety register. Only a truly independent body can do this.

This independent body would need the power to control the minimum qualification level to ensure the electrician is safe to undertake potentially dangerous work in a customer’s property. This would be the death knell for all the current schemes as they would be superfluous to requirements.

You seem a good chap, but you have to sing whatever song your paymasters tell you. I would dearly like to know you’re personal views in light of the comments made here. Comments by many who are members of your particular scheme.
 
as Tony states
Re: "MOT your home" and "Don't take the "P"". i as a member of the pulic and an electrician have never heard of any of these campaings and if i was to mention partp to anyone other than an electrician they wouldnt know the foggiest
 
I've deliberately backed off of this debate mainly due to the fact that I have and do care passionately about my trade.

My trade has given me a good life style, I can't say that I've enjoyed every minute of it, but I have in the whole loved it. I have met fantastic people, been challenged nearly every day of my working life and being in the industry has defined me.

40 odd years ago I left school and was signed onto a JIB apprenticeship and the number on my deeds was 018........ etc so I was pretty much one of the first.

The then NICEIC was the only real player on the block, and in those days they were a charity, they may still have this status I know not. But they were in essence guardians of our trade. The NICEIC name was synonymous with quality and standards and respected.

I know that nothing, especially in the work place lasts forever, but I'm sorry to say that this really is no longer the case. I have no problem with a company making profits, but in making these profits companies often and do have to make decisions, take a course of action that is solely beneficial to them and can be at costs and this I believe as happened.

I would dearly love to know if the NICEIC/ESC/ELECSA truly believes that these DI courses are producing excellent standards within our industry. If they truly believe that an account in March can be a competent electrician in April, I'm sure we will never get a full answer to this.

I wonder though if this new alliance would transfer some of this money back into full training.

Could there be a scheme such as the Certsure Apprenticeship Scheme (CAS)? After all they have a ready made partner in apprenticeships that they could partner up with and who would I'm sure be able to input 40 odd years of experience to assist them .....the JIB

All it would need is for Certsure to encourage and contribute to a company to take young guys on. Perhaps set up a trust or foundation to pay a percentage of an apprentices costs for a 4 yr period, they could set up the total, say a start of figure of 2000 places a year and take it from there.

Surely doing something like this will pay more than just lip service to the sermon of "We are trying to raise standards" it would be physical tangible evidence that these are not hollow words spun out of making a profit, but they do in fact have the best interests of the industry at heart.

Times are truly hard, but even in hard times someone, somebody or some organisation must make decisions that will ensure the survival and the standards of the industry
 
we should see adverts on tv more i think,in papers to, to explain to the custumer what the card means,

the ecs card should be a standard, and add some more grade on it

and get ride of the all these miss leading quick step courses
 
I feel one area where the NIC and others deliberately mislead is the so called Part P courses.
There are constant posters on here who claim to be 'doing their part P'.....nobody seems to have pointed out to them that part p is not a qualification....especially not the course providers raking in the cash.

And a big thankyou to all who have contributed to this important thread.....dont feel I can really add to whats been already said.....But if NICENGINEER has any brain cells he will pick up on the huge disatisfaction with the curren state of play in the industry over training,scheme scams and declining standards.......Which ARE declining whatever statistics he may come up with.
 
As the NICEIC engineer has already pointed out, if you wish to discuss other areas of the industry, please start a new thread.

Can we leave this one for discussions on the thread topic.
 
What other topics are you referring to Jason?

I think 90% of discussion on this thread is solely concerned with this new partnership and how it is going to affect our industry.

When you get a scheme on here that proposes to raise standards, to move our industry forward, to do this and that, then asking questions about training, how they intend to move things forward I feel are quite legitimate
 
What other topics are you referring to Jason?

I think 90% of discussion on this thread is solely concerned with this new partnership and how it is going to affect our industry.

When you get a scheme on here that proposes to raise standards, to move our industry forward, to do this and that, then asking questions about training, how they intend to move things forward I feel are quite legitimate

Agree.... Especially as this thread is based on these Providers flying the ''Safety Flag''!!
 
OK, looking at this purely from self interest, and perhaps playing Devil's advocate.

Will it cost me anymore in the short term? No.
Will it cost anymore in the meduim/long term? Probably, but then the fees would inveitably have gone up anyway.
Will it do me or my business any harm? No.
Will it do me or my business any good? No.
Will it further harm the electrical industry? No.
Will it change things for the better within the industry? No.

So in summary, someone somewhere will benefit but it's unlikely to be me. As them benefitting won't cause me or my business any harm I'll moan and grumble a bit, then roll over and carry on as before.

So my comment directed to those who have made the changes; OK, but please don't expect me to be enthusiastic about a lot of fiddling round the edges or congratulate you for it.
 
In response to Murdoch an answer is posted earlier in the thread.

The ESC has tried in the not too distant past to create one register for the promotion of contractors from many schemes, but some schemes did not want to participate.
www.electricalsafetyregister.com was therefore developed for NICEIC, ELECSA and ECA registrants.

The ECA and ESC havebeen working for nearly two years to form a meaningful partnership and jointgovernance over NICEIC and ELECSA. The register is just the first benefit forthose ELECSA and NICEIC contractors, as well as ECA members.


What were the REASONS given for not wanting to join your register?

Less P&W and more facts!
 
Personally, i think this is a step in the right direction.


Rubbish - it`s just protectionist drivel.

The NICEIC and ECA are scared to death of their contractors having a choice and voting with their feet.

I know of few contractors who join the NICEIC for anything other than the branding - they detest the "cowboys with a badge" just as much as the rest of us.

Incidentally, the NICEIC posts appear to be nothing more than advertising with little substance or information of any value - i.e. spam.

If I was suspicious I would think that the NICEIC was sponsoring this forum .... ?
 
Morning All. Thanks for the comments. The thread was set upto answer questions specifically about the new Joint Venture. While i think we havestrayed off from that topic slightly I will try and answer some of the pointsraised.
If anyone has any further questions about the merger betweenthe ECA and ESC then please do post them up today and we will try to get themanswered.

Promotion
The Electrical Safety Register will be promoted extensivelyto consumers and specifiers of electrical work. We commit to spend a proportionof all fees on marketing the register so that it becomes the number onesearchable database for registered electricians. We have already sent out morethan 20 000 letters to MPs, local authorities, housing associations and othersuch leading organisations informing them about the move.
Public relations and marketing plans are already in placeand we’re confident the Electrical Safety Register will benefit NICEIC andELECSA registrants.
As a separate point, the Electrical Safety Register isn’tjust aimed at householders, NICEIC Approved Contractors and ECA registeredmembers are on there too. The electrical contracting industry is broad and the register isn’t just focussed on Domestic Installers.
Part P
NICEIC, partnering with the ECA and ELECSA has expressed itsviews on the future of Part P to the DCLG during its recent consultation and weawait to see government’s decision on the proposal. A large part of oursubmission was that more needed to be done to promote Part P to consumers andas a scheme operator we have a responsibility to do this in conjunction withgovernment.
In terms of policing, we are accredited by the UnitedKingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) which audits us annually, and the recentSelect Committee, where NICEIC stood alongside ECA and the ESC, we welcomedmore scrutiny over Scheme Operators. We welcome this and the added transparencythis will bring.
Competent Persons /Standards
NICEIC Engineers carry out visits to our 26,000 registeredcontractors each year and inspect around 300 000 jobs and reports back are thatstandards are on the increase.
NICEIC operates a robust and rigorous qualification forregistration, accredited by UKAS. This includes, an inspection of arepresentative sample of the companies work, assessment at their premises to ensure they have documentation andrecords, employs only competent persons to carry out electrical work, hasevidence of required insurances and an, inspection of their equipment andpremises. Most importantly, it includes a requirement for regular periodicinspections and assessments of organisations and principle named individuals toensure standards are continually met.
However, in the same way that the British MedicalAssociation cannot oversee every operation performed by a surgeon, the NICEICis not in a position to test every electrical installation itself. The fact that a contractor has properly beenapproved to work to best industry standards on assessment cannot, regrettably,rule out the possibility that acontractor, or someone working for them, may be negligent in relation to aspecific electrical installation in the future.
Much like when you pass a driving test that person has aduty of care to act safely and responsible. Our annual assessments ensurestandards are maintained and that training is up to date whilst also providingthe company the opportunity to ask our skilled engineers any questions orqueries they might have.
There are several factors as to why it isn’t possible tomake registration on a Register mandatory or indeed register the individualinstead of a company. Firstly you just have to listen to our customers – or anyelectrician -to realise how tough the economic climate is. Anything thatincreases costs for contractors wouldn’t be right or ethical at this time. Secondly,there is no appetite at government level to do this and this was clear at therecent Select Committee on Part P.

I hope this helps answer some questions and if there are any more specifically relating to the new joint venture then i am happy to respond. Thanks for your time.

You mean that you will answer the questions that you wish to, and ignore the rest as "unsuitable?"

Give it a rest - there is far more intelligence outside the Scheme operators than inside them, I can assure you.

We may not be as devious, but we are far more concerned about OUR trade and OUR customers than you have ever been or will ever be in the future.
 
Rubbish - it`s just protectionist drivel.

The NICEIC and ECA are scared to death of their contractors having a choice and voting with their feet.

I know of few contractors who join the NICEIC for anything other than the branding - they detest the "cowboys with a badge" just as much as the rest of us.

Incidentally, the NICEIC posts appear to be nothing more than advertising with little substance or information of any value - i.e. spam.

If I was suspicious I would think that the NICEIC was sponsoring this forum .... ?

Well observed, (I guess the green name and member status gave it away?) and what has them sponsoring the forum got to do with it?


I dont know about members voting with their feet, or neither do you for that matter.

So, what would YOU like to see happen with this then?
 
Well observed, (I guess the green name and member status gave it away?) and what has them sponsoring the forum got to do with it?


I dont know about members voting with their feet, or neither do you for that matter.

So, what would YOU like to see happen with this then?
I think that as the niceic is a forum sponsor,and that you as a member of forum admin have agreed with the comments put forward by the Niceic rep then it looks like you are paying him lip service.there it,s out now I,ve said what others were thinking.
 
I think that as the niceic is a forum sponsor,and that you as a member of forum admin have agreed with the comments put forward by the Niceic rep then it looks like you are paying him lip service.there it,s out now I,ve said what others were thinking.

I don't like the NIC having a hand in the forum, and I'm not a fan of the ECA ESC tie up. However I don't think muddying the waters with discussion on forum sponsorship is either helpful or relevant.

The forum is part of a business, the members are part of that business' stock, and the sponsors are the customers. I frequently have to deal with all sorts as customers for my business, so I expect do most other business'. It doesn't mean that I agree with their politics, views or financial dealings. This forum's going to be no different, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

If I get to the point where I feel that this forum has crossed a line I personally feel is unacceptable I can, and will, leave and go elsewhere and so can anyone else.
 
I don't like the NIC having a hand in the forum, and I'm not a fan of the ECA ESC tie up. However I don't think muddying the waters with discussion on forum sponsorship is either helpful or relevant.

The forum is part of a business, the members are part of that business' stock, and the sponsors are the customers. I frequently have to deal with all sorts as customers for my business, so I expect do most other business'. It doesn't mean that I agree with their politics, views or financial dealings. This forum's going to be no different, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

If I get to the point where I feel that this forum has crossed a line I personally feel is unacceptable I can, and will, leave and go elsewhere and so can anyone else.
the point I was trying to get over is that it would be considered less biased if moderators/admin did not involve themselves in discussions involving sponsors.
 
If you look carefully, I only press the buttons here and have no decision in who can and can't sponsor. That is dans job as he Actually owns it.

Plus the fact, he has worked reasonably hard to get the NICEIC to join, so that everyone can ask questions about schemes etc etc.

Now, with regards to the topic, (if i am allowed to contribute) as I said before, I think it is a step in the right direction.

Everyone has been moaning about not having 'one scheme', but guess what, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

With that in mind, who knows, eventually the other schemes may jump aboard.

I could of course have the wrong end of the stick!

Ps. I am actually a practicing electrician in case anyone was wondering.

PPs. And no Phil d, you havent upset me ;)
 
Jason, this guy is a representative of the ECA, he should not need defending if his organisation were, as they claim, promoting safety.

To promote safety this campaign can only be run by a bi-partisan organisation, with a minimum qualification level to ensure the safety of the general public. But no this is a blatant self-promotional exercise and purely for gain.
ECA, IET, ESC, NAPPIT, NIC, Elecsa, et al have all proved themselves totally inept where informing the public is concerned.

There’s only one logical conclusion to this farce and that is a national register, if it needs government intervention then so be it. Unfortunately they are unlikely to involve themselves. It would mean admitting that they are responsible for the shambles that is the electrical industry is today. A shambles that ultimately is rooted in short term monetary gain.

The fact that so many feel all the schemes are letting them down is more than evident from this thread.

I really don’t know why I’m involving myself in this, I should be sat on the side lines laughing. But I can’t stand by and see safety promoted in this manner.

The employers were always the one’s tarred with the “safety at what cost” brush. It looks from here like the entire contents of the can of tar is being spread around and none of the schemes are escaping it.
 
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