Discuss Electrician walked off the job half way, what now? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Well it's been 3 months without a peep so either all is going swimmingly or the whole escapade went so far South it doesn't bear thinking about. I doubt it's anywhere in the middle......
 
Well it's been 3 months without a peep so either all is going swimmingly or the whole escapade went so far South it doesn't bear thinking about. I doubt it's anywhere in the middle......
I'm betting on a nightmare of biblical proportions. Best get the popcorn i because I want a front row seat for this one.

Watch, he'll come back and say everything was fantasticly well done and he got all the cash back from the original guy.
 
I'm betting on a nightmare of biblical proportions. Best get the popcorn i because I want a front row seat for this one.

Watch, he'll come back and say everything was fantasticly well done and he got all the cash back from the original guy.

Well not that exiting, we have finished the first fix electrical work using someone else. we will start plaster boarding next week.

I will post what happened with the other electrician after we are finished in court, he is probably ready this also.
 
Well not that exiting, we have finished the first fix electrical work using someone else. we will start plaster boarding next week.

I will post what happened with the other electrician after we are finished in court, he is probably ready this also.

More feedback on this would only be helpful if its the transcript from the Court. I can't imagine that a sparky would walk away without a reasonable reason - like an unreasonable client. I'm not taking sides!
 
not sure how I missed this. just read first two pages and this one.
not gonna comment on the situation, but I hope it all works out good in the end
 
It's certainly confusing but from what the op has said it does sound like this guy got a hair up his bottom about something. In his position I wouldn't have said the cash was actually a payment, more likely a gesture of goodwill. Here's a large wad of cash for you to hold till I can get a similar amount into your account doesn't sound unreasonable to me, nor does it sound as if you're trying to imply he accepts cash payments (which, provided they are properly accounted for, are perfectly fine).
He has though left you in a pickle, the scheme providers give the ability to self certify. Signing off another's work is frowned upon so you may struggle to find someone willing to issue the necessary paperwork
yes trev but the O/P mentioned about getting floors down n stuff....so the cable runs should be on view there
as for cable runs in walls...tone n amp should pick them up so as long as it tests ok and cable runs can be verified.......
 
Well it's been 3 months without a peep so either all is going swimmingly or the whole escapade went so far South it doesn't bear thinking about. I doubt it's anywhere in the middle......

If it's steaming south of you with any luck it should hit an iceberg and sink without trace.
 
Hmmm, I had a suspicion it might have ended with litigation. How's the build and second/final fix going. I assume your new sparky is cutting the mustard better than the original one?
 
Tony, I have a few quid to my name so the bill is not a huge issue. I just feel that I was taken advantage off and want to put it right.

I am not asking for anything more then what I feel is fair but thats for the courts to decide now.

One of the issues is that he is saying that I now have to pay VAT however our place is a new build but he says I have to give him a VAT exemption number having spoken to HMRC 4 times they have told me there is no such thing for new builds and the work should simply be Zero rated.
 
I think what Tony meant was a tongue in cheek way of saying better you than me with the bill that'll be coming your way but as you say it appears that the original guy has tried to have your pants down.
Now I'm no VAT expert but I thought that the only way round the whole new build VAT thing was for your contractors to charge you (as they should) and for you to reclaim it. Could be wrong of course and if I am let me know the mechanics of it as you never know, I could be faced with the same scenario one day
 
I'm not taking sides here but before you engagaed the original electricians how many did you get to quote and were their prices similar?
 
I'm not taking sides here but before you engagaed the original electricians how many did you get to quote and were their prices similar?

My thought exactly Murdoch, just didn't want to come across too hard when its a sorry situation.

Joe public often get taken for a ride - and i really do praise the OP for standing his ground. If you didn't get quotes from the original sparky in the first place, or ask for references then let it be a (hard) lesson learnt - the vast majority of people in the trade are decent, hard-working sparks but they're the odd few that you can't take at face value.

Hope everything in the courts works out for you.
 
I think what Tony meant was a tongue in cheek way of saying better you than me with the bill that'll be coming your way but as you say it appears that the original guy has tried to have your pants down.
Now I'm no VAT expert but I thought that the only way round the whole new build VAT thing was for your contractors to charge you (as they should) and for you to reclaim it. Could be wrong of course and if I am let me know the mechanics of it as you never know, I could be faced with the same scenario one day

Hi trev, its actually the opposite, VAT man insists services delivered by builders / plumbers / sparkies etc are zero rated for labour and parts. VAT man will re-imburse owner for stuff he has had to buy from say B&Q etc but only after the building is complete. I did a new build for myself a few years back and remember having the conversation with the guy doing the groundworks, he was as surprised as me.
The bit that is a bit risky is that the onus is on the contractor to verify that the VAT being charged is correct. Pretty easy to figure out what a new build is but there are some items an electrician could install in a house which the VAT man will not allow zero rating.
My advice - read the info from HMRC and a quick call to them if you are not sure.
HM Revenue & Customs: Building trades: VAT when constructing new houses and flats
 
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I'm not taking sides here but before you engagaed the original electricians how many did you get to quote and were their prices similar?

Actually I got 3 quotes his was the most expensive by quite a long way however I am not one to try and do things on the cheap and thought he knew what he was doing.

It turned out to be a massive mistake. We are plaster boarding the walls now and having to put on a 20mm thick later of dot and dab because he did not chop in the 35mm back boxes. which is taking around 20kg of bonding compound per board.


Hi trev, its actually the opposite, VAT man insists services delivered by builders / plumbers / sparkies etc are zero rated for labour and parts. VAT man will re-imburse owner for stuff he has had to buy from say B&Q etc but only after the building is complete. I did a new build for myself a few years back and remember having the conversation with the guy doing the groundworks, he was as surprised as me.
The bit that is a bit risky is that the onus is on the contractor to verify that the VAT being charged is correct. Pretty easy to figure out what a new build is but there are some items an electrician could install in a house which the VAT man will not allow zero rating.
My advice - read the info from HMRC and a quick call to them if you are not sure.
HM Revenue & Customs: Building trades: VAT when constructing new houses and flats

This is right, for a new build a VAT registered trades man has to zero rate the VAT, I can only claim back VAT on stuff that I bought my self from a retail / online outlet. I can not claim back vat for work done as it was supposed to be 0 rated.

I will post a photo of the finished consumer unit as my new electrician seems to have done a really good job.
 
I had a good look around the site today and he has only put in around 50 to 55 boxes, no consumer unite, the cables are all free and have not been tacked to the walls, the 30 amp supplies have not been put in so really all that has been done is 6 ring mains run around the flat, a few boxes put into the walls and cables run to them nothing more.

It seems that I have been had.



If the ECA are anything like the NICEIC then you will be able to approach them and make a complaint. they will come round and inspect the work. if its substandard then they will pressure the sparks to come and put it right. if he refuses then they will eploy another registered firm and charge the original sparks for the remedial work.

be warned though, if you have had another sparks on site already then they will not look at it at all.
 
I had a good look around the site today and he has only put in around 50 to 55 boxes, no consumer unite, the cables are all free and have not been tacked to the walls, the 30 amp supplies have not been put in so really all that has been done is 6 ring mains run around the flat, a few boxes put into the walls and cables run to them nothing more.

It seems that I have been had.



If the ECA are anything like the NICEIC then you will be able to approach them and make a complaint. they will come round and inspect the work. if its substandard then they will pressure the sparks to come and put it right. if he refuses then they will eploy another registered firm and charge the original sparks for the remedial work.

be warned though, if you have had another sparks on site already then they will not look at it at all.

I have spoken to his body they are not interested because its a contractual issue not quality issue.
 
Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

Ok a Little bit of back story.

I am doing quit a large new self build and needed a lot of electrical work doing. I got quotes from 3 companies, I went with:

C S***** ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS LTD based in Braintree Essex. He is a member of the ECA.

They where one of the most expensive quotes however I liked the guy and felt he would do a good job. Quality is more important to me then cost.

The initial quote was for:
first fix £7375 and second Fix £5000.
I would supply everything except cables and back boxes.

Originally First fix involved the
following:
7 ring mains for 48 plug sockets
34 lighting circuits with 186 fittings
power to 4 showers
first fix fire alarm system with 13 detectors
6 extractor fans
30 amp supply to induction hob
30 amp supply to flat roof with waterproof
box. 2 outdoor power supplies
2 outdoor lights
fit intercom.

I agreed to pay £3 093 upfront as a deposit. I did this because he was based in Braintree, Essex and I am based near Sheffield. First fix would have taken about 3 to 4 weeks he would have to stay in a hotel during the week.

After he got to site we found I wanted to add a lot of extra sockets and light fittings, we had 95 sockets and 210 light fittings. I agreed I would pay £25 extra per plug socket and £20 per light fitting


The Electrician started on Monday (01.10.12) and went home Thursday afternoon. He had another young lad with him, I have no idea what qualifications the boy had but he told me that he was a fully qualified electrician.

In this time the following work was done
Install 6 ring mains with 53 back boxes (35mm)



On Sunday I got the following email form him:

Hi P****,

Just a quick email to advise you that I will not be coming back up to chesterfield as I was not happy in the way that you handed out the first payment or operated.

I run a professional business and do not run a cash business and that we were paid by a second party.

The work that has been carried out so far, are the six ring mains all wired and boxed to which you have paid me £3093.75 of the first fix cost of £7375.00 to which I have also fitted 44 additional points.

I'm not after any further payments as the works can be carried out by a second party.

Regards C**** S*****.

What happened was that on Monday I was supposed to pay him the deposit so I took cash in but he wanted in his bank account.

So I said I would go to the bank to drop the cash into his account. I was quite busy with other builders on site and did not get the chance to go to the bank so on Tuesday again I was on site so I gave him the 3k deposit in cash and told him to hold onto the money until he can see the deposit in his account, I then got my business partner to do a BACS transfer into his account which showed up a few hours later so he gave me back the 3k I gave to him as security. Its not that I was not willing to pay only the logistics of getting into the bank to do the deposit but he was very stressed about getting paid.

I then sent him a letter asking for £1,693.00 back as I worked out how much in materials he used and then allowed £150 per day each for labor. To be quite honest this was generous but I was trying to be fair. I was also not happy that the 35mm back boxes were not chopped into the walls (we planed to dot and dab sound block plasterboard onto solid block walls), I also felt that the cables running around should have been tacked back to the walls.

I got this back from him

We write in direct response to your undated email letter, as your registered post copy has not
yet been received, concerning works at the above premises.

Your letter clearly identifies that, at worst, we have a divisible contract and accordingly, we
are quite within our rights to stop work when the first fix has been completed. Your letter
is not an offer, nor does it seek to prejudice your position, as such, the 'Without Prejudice'
carries no weight, we shall be presenting your letter, as evidence to the court.

We have raised our objections to the way you conduct yourself in respect to paying by
using a third party and by claiming that the job is zero-rated. We have undertaken many
zero-rated jobs, this is not the way VAT is managed. If you can assure us that HMRC
have issued a redemption certificate, we shall be very pleased to waive this charge.

We have not completed the works, your behaviour means that we cannot see how we can
do this. Consequently, we render our account in the sum of £2577.50 plus VAT (making
£3093) which we have accepting payment from a third party. We have undertaken a 'dead'
test in order to assure us that whoever undertakes the remaining works, the integrity of
our works cannot be called into question.

We thank-you for the photographs. On a project that is still to have its walls sound proofed
and plaster boarded, at a 35mm depth (as per your instructions), we would not expect the
first-fix electrical works to look any different to what they do. Cables would only be
'tacked' or capped if a contractual specification required. BS 7671 makes no such requirement.

If you persist in taking this matter to the small claims court, we shall be using this letter as
the basis of our defence.

Yours faithfully

As its a new build we are Zero Rated for VAT. No other trades have charged me VAT nor has my kitchen supplier. I have spoken to HMRC a few times and they tell me there no such thing as a VAT exemption number in this situation (which is what he asked for).
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSheets&id=HMCE_CL_000513&propertyType=document#P1284_129676

So I then submitted the papers to small claims court.

He then responded claiming to the court that the fire alarm and lighting was never part of the quote.

Today the judge ruled against him in "Default of defence" and I was awarded the full £1,693.00 and £120 costs.

Sorry for the long post but I did promise a full update and was trying to be a clear and honest a possible.

I don’t know if I will actually get any money out of him but I feel I did the right thing by taking him to court. He is not short of a few quid, he and his wife both had quite nice Rolex's and were staying in a VERY nice hotel when I first met them. We actually met in Prague by chance when I stopped to give him directions and we got talking.

This is the original thread
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...trician-walked-off-job-half-way-what-now.html

I have not posted his name because I do not want to end up in court defamation of character.

The electrical work as now been taken on by a forum member who has done a amazing job. He can is welcome to comment if he wants.
 
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Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

I can't comment on the original situation but thank you for posting the outcome, and I'm glad you got a satisfactory resolution.
 
Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

I hope this is the last chapter in the saga.

From you’re tale of woe I get the impression things weren’t right at the outset. Change the terms of an agreed contract, expect trouble.
 
Guys for those of you subscribed to this thread I have posted an update...

Thanks for the update, I've merged the separate thread you made with this one just to keep things tidy.

How did the rest of the project go with the new electrician? I imagine the job must be finished now or at least approaching handover.
 
So you meet a sparky in Prague, who lives in Essex, you live in Sheffield and the job is in Chesterfield? Sounds like a receipe for disaster from the start.
 
Re: Electrician walked off the job half way, An UPDATE!!

So you meet a sparky in Prague, who lives in Essex, you live in Sheffield and the job is in Chesterfield? Sounds like a receipe for disaster from the start.

Strange I know, I have been living in Prague for 10 years but was in the process of moving back to the uk (in 6 months). I got talking to this guy in Prague and he gave me his card, as he seemed to be a nice guy I called him when I was looking for a electrician.

We live in sheffield while we are building the place in Chesterfield its only 45min away.

Have will, will travel comes to mind.

How big is this house having 37 lighting circuits, is each light got it's own circuit?

6400 sq ft so quite large.

LOL, totally agree haha, that's whats happened here IMO

I dont know, we agreed from the start that there will be chances as we go along and I would be charged per point. At the end of the day when your doing a self build you always want to add and change things as the build progresses.

15k for a few weeks worth of work and probably £1k worth of cables is not bad if you ask me.
 
7 ring mains and 34 lighting circuits?? 34 lighting circuits? 34?. Maybe it's just me but why is there a need for 34 lighting circuits? Daz 34??!? I mean, 34??!?
 
Funny enough I was born in Braintree, Bailey Bridge Road to be exact, and went to the John Bunyan School before the family moved to London to enable my father to be nearer the business he was partners in. I know a sparky in the town whose initials match those in this thread...IF it is the same spark I would very very surprised if the work was below an acceptable standard because having worked with him in the past his work was always very well done, in fact I recall moaning about how long he took to do a particular job because he was taking his time to ensure it was "just right" due to be surface.

Now I am not about to contact him and ask the question, but I will bet there is more to this story than the posts here imply, although I am not taking sides or saying anyone is right or wrong here. Perhaps both parties could have sat down and spoken and resolved matters more maturely, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 
I agree, it would have been nice if I did not have to go to court to resolve this, I did even drop him a line and say that if he has changed his mind he can come back and finish the job before I get someone else in. As I said he came across as a very nice bloke and I am not out to screw anyone at all and I dont think this guy is a scammer.

I got taken advantage of because I was a little naive and paid a deposit up front which I will never do again.
 
I got taken advantage of because I was a little naive and paid a deposit up front which I will never do again.

Many of us don't do work WITHOUT some form of up front deposit because of being caught out by bad paying customers!! It's a chicken and egg situation.
 
Many of us don't do work WITHOUT some form of up front deposit because of being caught out by bad paying customers!! It's a chicken and egg situation.

Yes its difficult what I do now is I pay everyone on friday at the end of the week. I have had some of the same trades working on there for the last 14 weeks so there is a level of trust between me and most of the people working there.
 
What do you want out of this thread? Sympathy? Not from me or many others I would guess.

You pulled a stunt with the first transaction, do the same to me and I’d walk away. During the hearing weren’t questions asked about the payment methods? Very surprised if there weren’t!

It would be interesting if the first electrician were to come on to here, there’s two sides to every story. This one has become long and boring!
 
Just a quick email to advise you that I will not be coming back up to XXXX as I was not happy in the way that you handed out the first payment or operated.
I run a professional business and do not run a cash business and that we were paid by a second party.


I have never heard such crap.We are in the middle of a reccession.I would be happy to take any money ,in any form,from anyone
 
i have read this thread with interest as i am looking for clues to be a succesful contractor...what i can really decipher is ....there is obviously 2 sides to every story and this is not a personal attack on the poster but it is clear he has flexible ways of working which the original spark wasnt happy with...who the hell calls a place with that many circuits 'small'?...i will pay you on monday which turns out to be 'someone else will pay you on tuesday'.....i think the original spark saw what was coming and just made sure he got out of there without taking a loss and i am struggling to fault him.
 
Personally I have reservation about the whole story, anyone with enough money to build a house of that size, in my honest opinion, is unlikely to bitch and moan about it on here to be honest, perhaps I am wrong, there is always a first time for such behaviour I suppose (The poster not me being wrong, that is regular!)

I would like to see a scanned copy of the Judgement on here (with ID's and addresses protected of course) just to be some form of proof this is not some elaborate bull. I have taken companies and individuals to court several times over the years for none payment, breach of contract etc, and there will be a written judgement...
 
i call bulls*** on the job even existing :)
no-one in chesterfield has the coin to build a 6000 sqft luxury designer apartment , the place is a dump lol.
and if they could afford it , they wouldnt build it there in the first place , they'd choose somewhere nicer.......
like the bronx , moss-side or toxteth.
;-)
 

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