How do we make this job pay?

[3wayselectrical]

At the moment I'm lucky if i get 1 in 10 quotes converted into jobs. I've found the most successful approach on large jobs is to provide the customer with a bill of materials listing all the parts and costs, a scope of works with details of estimated man hours and a quote with the final costing. This seems to give the right impression to the customer and the most accurate from my point of view of how much I should be charging. On the whole I've been quoting around the £3500 mark for a typical re-wire on a 3 bed house (unoccupied,add about £1000 to an occupied because they never clear fernature or carpets and it always takes a lot longer). Working on my own a complete rewire is hard graft and usually takes about 2 weeks. I'm charging £150/day for that and getting under cut in some cases by more than £1000! How do they maintain a profit and keep up to date with registration fees and other overheads?

 

[Marvo]

Well we aim to get 25-35% of our quotes converted into jobs. If it's less I'll trim marginsa little, if it's more I'll adjust the other direction. I wouldn't give a bill of materials at the quoting stage, I might break the materials into areas but that's as far as I'd go. If you list materials individually it makes it too easy for the customer to hand your quote to another contractor and he'll easily under-cut you.

 

[Short Circuit]

i recently quoted £2800 to rewire an empty 3 bed semi, when i gave the lady the price, she looked at me as if i was ripping her off! I had already done it mates rates as she was a friend of a friend. She then went on to tell me she had already had a price of £1500! I told her that she should have told me that before i drove the 20 miles to see her as i wouldnt have bothered! I have never been back to see how it went but expect that she wont have any certs or any form of guarantee! The top and bottom is that there will always be someone out there that will undercut the price, no matter how competitive you are! I reckon the guy who did the house i looked at is probably doing it on the side and 'borrows' most of the materials from somewhere - the gear alone makes it almost that price!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Maybe this new rule regarding part p will somehow do something about all this?...

 

[cbw]

I quoted recently for a 3 bed rewire, habited and went in at £4600.00

This was all MK
Each day they would have floorboards replaced
Each day a cleaner would attend for 1 hour
Each day they would have electric.
It would take my team 2 weeks

I was £1600 more than the guy who got the job.

2 months into the job said customer phones me in tears, they have been living in a hotel for 2 months with a 1 month old baby and said electrician still felt it would be another 8 weeks.

They could no longer afford the hotel bills and could I please come in and finish off????

If I could have done it I would, this ended costing a lot more for a lesser job.

I use this as an example when asked why I am so much more than joe bloggs

 

[GLENNSPARK]

When my boss and i go in to survay...the first thing we look at is wether its floorboard or chipboard and always ask if there having the ceiling boarded as that all knocks time off....were always on the lookout for the easiest cable run whilst remaining compliant......makes you wonder about some of these undercutters goin into peoples properties without a clue.....

 

[Octopus]

[2 months into the job said customer phones me in tears, they have been living in a hotel for 2 months with a 1 month old baby and said electrician still felt it would be another 8 weeks.

[/QUOTE]

Another 8 WEEKS!! - the sparky must have been doing it on the side out of hours!!!

 

[TPES]

I went to price a kitchen rewire, another spark before me has already been to give a quote,

There is additions & alterations to the RFC
Water bonding
New cooker circuit
Alterations to lighting circuit
Core out for extractor

There is old rewireable fuse board, the customer agrees to a new dual RCD CU.
The first electrician has said already there's at least £300 just on changing your CU without touching anything else.

I know of this first electrician, he's an older chap who's fully registered and I'm sure knows his stuff and does a decent job issuing test certs and notification

A couple of days later i see his quote for £500 for the whole job, all materials and labour.

I can't compete at all with this! I'm getting this more and more lately and loosing out on jobs for people who are doing work for silly prices. I'd love to speak to this other sparks I'm loosing work to and ask them what there secret is? How do they do it?

Maybe you lot could tell me, is there some kind of electricians secret tool that allows you to first fix in an hour? Or maybe a special tool to help me second fix

 

[stan794]

I have just been working with a full time spark to get some experience on a 3 bedroom house rewire (furnished), he charged them £2100, if he had charged anywhere near the above then he would not have got the business. Another example - we had to upgrade a shower and upgrade the cable, supply and fit with a £170 shower, he quoted £350 and was knocked back, seems they got it done for £260 - crazy.

 

[jar]

You can never compete with Jimmy up the road doing it for a fiver or 20 smokes and a beer.
All you can do is give a price that will cover your time mark up your materials in a fair maner and tell the costomer to make sure that whoever does the work has public liability insurance, just incase the house burns down with an electrical fault.
If the insurance people insisted on more pir for private housing they would have a heart attack at the state of some of the work that you come accross.

 

[Dcf]

2100 quids for a 3 bed occupied furnished rewire?? christ is this 1987 I'm in or what.your material will be about 1000 to 1200 + vat cost alone not leaving a lot for the labour cost there eh? The thing the general public don't get just now is that proper service and workmanship costs money always has and always will.pay peanuts get monkeys n it still rings true to this day

 

[Des 56]

Maybe this new rule regarding part p will somehow do something about all this?...

Whats this new rule Glenn ?
or am I being thick again and that was a tongue in cheek comment

 

[trev]

Whats this new rule Glenn ?
or am I being thick again and that was a tongue in cheek comment

Is that the one where to be a DI you have to have NVQ3? Rule coming in in January

 

[Des 56]

Is that the one where to be a DI you have to have NVQ3? Rule coming in in January

That wont affect those sensible types trev, the non part p installers

 

[stan794]

Will never happen.
Nothing confirmed yet, spoke to both Elecsa and Napit. Elecsa said no change all they require is 17th, Napit much the same but must complete their trade test within 12 months or get 2391 either way they will accept you.

 

[trev]

That wont affect those sensible types trev, the non part p installers

Would they be the installers that part p was supposed to get rid of? Hehe

 

[3wayselectrical]

There's a little foot note to my rant! I quoted on a referb. recentley for a 4 bed 4 reception house. the work had been started by another sparks who had insalled the RM to the first floor and part of the first floor lighting and then bailed out claming he would not be available untill January for further work!

I quoted £4100 to complete the work including checking the work done so far and bearing in mind that the grounf floor lighting was mostley fire rated down lights. There were no left over materials apart from a few ends of cable reels and the materials alone came to £1500. I lost the job to someone who had quoted 'significantley cheeper'.

This morning I got a phone call from the 'customer' who had just paid their new 'electrician' for the completed job. As he was getting into his van he told her that she will need to get installation tested. The call was to ask me if I would be interested. I declinded as it was not in my interests to test and/or certify other poeples work, nor was I in a position to recomend any other electricians as I considered it unfair to place them in such a possition.

I know that some work is better than no work and that my responce may appear spitefull, but the legal implications of taking on the responcibility of unknown individuals work can lead to prison if it all goes wrong. Remember that it is your signature on the test cert. and if there is a fault not apparent in the electrical testing that causes damage, injury or death at any time in the future the insurance companies are going to come after you.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I went to price a kitchen rewire, another spark before me has already been to give a quote,

There is additions & alterations to the RFC
Water bonding
New cooker circuit
Alterations to lighting circuit
Core out for extractor

There is old rewireable fuse board, the customer agrees to a new dual RCD CU.
The first electrician has said already there's at least £300 just on changing your CU without touching anything else.

I know of this first electrician, he's an older chap who's fully registered and I'm sure knows his stuff and does a decent job issuing test certs and notification

A couple of days later i see his quote for £500 for the whole job, all materials and labour.

I can't compete at all with this! I'm getting this more and more lately and loosing out on jobs for people who are doing work for silly prices. I'd love to speak to this other sparks I'm loosing work to and ask them what there secret is? How do they do it?

Maybe you lot could tell me, is there some kind of electricians secret tool that allows you to first fix in an hour? Or maybe a special tool to help me second fix

That is something you younger lads will have to get use to, and sorry to say that when I do come home I will be the same as him.

He most likely does not have a mortgage, nor kids and will not need to buy new tools and will have got everything over the years.

He will not need the drimmels, or the fancy 36v SDS combo kit as time is not his driving factor, but the most important thing to a customer he is old, so therefore he must be experienced, must be trustworthy, must be sound.

So he is not needing nearly as much money to earn than a younger guy is needing. He will be quite happy getting 4 or 5 jobs a month that will cover his expenses such a scheme, insurance and virtually everything else will be pocket money.

 

[Welchyboy]

I find if you get recommended for the job you can generally make more money from it, if your getting work through advertising in the papers etc then you dont have that edge over anyone else who they ask to quote for the work

Most of all i find that first impressions and how you deal with a customer, how you present yourself and your business is what will be a decieding factor to winning the work, its a sales pitch like any other business, people mostly dont go for the cheapest quote all the time(you dont want work from these people anyway as they are normally problem clients), they will go for the best quote and with the person they feel they would trust and like
but obviously if your a few grand above everyone else then you probably aint gonna get the job either

 

[stan794]

Another knock back today - Wiring to new kitchen extension and new porch extension - New CU, 3 new lights, 2 external lights, 8 sockets, 2 mains fire alarms. The guy i am working with quoted her £700, she had a price for £490 blimey.

 

[Octopus]

There's a little foot note to my rant! I quoted on a referb. recentley for a 4 bed 4 reception house. the work had been started by another sparks who had insalled the RM to the first floor and part of the first floor lighting and then bailed out claming he would not be available untill January for further work!

I quoted £4100 to complete the work including checking the work done so far and bearing in mind that the grounf floor lighting was mostley fire rated down lights. There were no left over materials apart from a few ends of cable reels and the materials alone came to £1500. I lost the job to someone who had quoted 'significantley cheeper'.

This morning I got a phone call from the 'customer' who had just paid their new 'electrician' for the completed job. As he was getting into his van he told her that she will need to get installation tested. The call was to ask me if I would be interested. I declinded as it was not in my interests to test and/or certify other poeples work, nor was I in a position to recomend any other electricians as I considered it unfair to place them in such a possition.

I know that some work is better than no work and that my responce may appear spitefull, but the legal implications of taking on the responcibility of unknown individuals work can lead to prison if it all goes wrong. Remember that it is your signature on the test cert. and if there is a fault not apparent in the electrical testing that causes damage, injury or death at any time in the future the insurance companies are going to come after you.

Staggering.

Lately I've been showing "test, certification and notification too LABC" on my estimates to ensure that clients understand that its included. I normally "cover" this verbally when I talk through jobs so that if they are getting other quotes then at the very least its highlighted that its included.

 

[Short Circuit]

Another knock back today - Wiring to new kitchen extension and new porch extension - New CU, 3 new lights, 2 external lights, 8 sockets, 2 mains fire alarms. The guy i am working with quoted her £700, she had a price for £490 blimey.

i would've been around the same price as you - its getting worse isnt it! (has malcolm come back already :tounge_smile

 

[GLENNSPARK]

It isn`t just peter "pull it in" downt bar now guys....take a look in tesco, asda etc.....drums of cable,...various fronts,...sleeving and clips etc.....now everyone can be a "pull it in" peter for themselves so even the traditional "undercutters" are finding themselves undercut........wonder how long before dis boards, MCBs, RCDs etc grace the shelves?..once the stevie wonders have maxed out their credit at the wholesalers they`l be down`t supermarket (24 hours?) goin wild in`t isles...........

 

[Dcf]

FFs it is 1987.you take a good few years to get your rates to a decent level n now you get kiddie on prices like this takin you back 20 years.490 for that is not even a wage never mind allowing for any profit ,overheads etc.my mate has done work for a guy for about 10 year.boy phones him up and says" I've got a plumber for £18 an hour could u drop to the same to get the work?"we had a chat about this n I tell him no way if he wants you he pays you what you want not what he thinks he should pay.end result is he still does the boys work at his rates.the point is the plumber is never gona get above 18 quid with this guy. Ever. Try making money at level. Aye right.

 

[morph]

At the moment I'm lucky if i get 1 in 10 quotes converted into jobs. I've found the most successful approach on large jobs is to provide the customer with a bill of materials listing all the parts and costs, a scope of works with details of estimated man hours and a quote with the final costing. This seems to give the right impression to the customer and the most accurate from my point of view of how much I should be charging. On the whole I've been quoting around the £3500 mark for a typical re-wire on a 3 bed house (unoccupied,add about £1000 to an occupied because they never clear fernature or carpets and it always takes a lot longer). Working on my own a complete rewire is hard graft and usually takes about 2 weeks. I'm charging £150/day for that and getting under cut in some cases by more than £1000! How do they maintain a profit and keep up to date with registration fees and other overheads?

your pricing is not making sense you say its two weeks for a rewire at £150 a day so thats £1500 are you paying £2k for materials then
they maintain a profit by getting the maths right

 

[alarm man]

It isn`t just peter "pull it in" downt bar now guys....take a look in tesco, asda etc.....drums of cable,...various fronts,...sleeving and clips etc.....now everyone can be a "pull it in" peter for themselves so even the traditional "undercutters" are finding themselves undercut........wonder how long before dis boards, MCBs, RCDs etc grace the shelves?..once the stevie wonders have maxed out their credit at the wholesalers they`l be down`t supermarket (24 hours?) goin wild in`t isles...........

im not suprised,you have the people willing to work for free,why not get a few quid while you practice

 

[GLENNSPARK]

im not suprised,you have the people willing to work for free,why not get a few quid while you practice

My point is...ok right to free trade etc but if these supermarkets are selling these goods....dont you think they should at least be offering guidance notes on how to install these products properly?....I mean many people are ignorant of "safe zones" and correct cable sizes etc...and how many of them will be connecting cookers over 2KW on a ring?.............this is just basic stuff but my boss and i have seen examples of this type of thing quite a bit....it just isn`t compliant and if people shopping in these places genuinely dont know...................

 

[alarm man]

My point is...ok right to free trade etc but if these supermarkets are selling these goods....dont you think they should at least be offering guidance notes on how to install these products properly?..

the same could be said of those taking the money from those who think they will earn 50k in 5 weeks time for a crash course in being a spark...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the same could be said of those taking the money from those who think they will earn 50k in 5 weeks time for a crash course in being a spark...

Agreed. I chose the apprenticeship route and feel i will be better for it. dont get me wrong....i`m all for folk trying to better themselves but its a case of "you signed the cert...you take the rap" and i think the ammendments to part p are long overdue......

 

[GLENNSPARK]

right....i`m off....6.00 am tomorrow.........

 

[alarm man]

Agreed. I chose the apprenticeship route and feel i will be better for it. dont get me wrong....i`m all for folk trying to better themselves but its a case of "you signed the cert...you take the rap" and i think the ammendments to part p are long overdue......

certs and receipts will be few and far between with the 'part p electrician' as they like to advertise on their vans

 

[3wayselectrical]

your pricing is not making sense you say its two weeks for a rewire at £150 a day so thats £1500 are you paying £2k for materials then
they maintain a profit by getting the maths right

The point I'm trying to make is that £150/day is not enough to to cover overheads, expences and a living wage for a skilled trade. You take your car to a garage for servicing or repair and you'll pay alot more than that for labour. The figuers I've quoted are generalised examples. Here is a case study for you:

3 bed detached referb complete rewire.
parts = £1350 (this inatal called for 47 fire rated downlights, 28 double sockets on the ground floor, 16 sockets 1st floor)
commition on parts = £100
Labour = 12 days @ £150/day = £1800
test & commitioning = £50
quote total = £3,300

Th job was awarded to a quote of £2,450.

 

[malcolmsanford]

was the material quantities your recommendation or the clients as 16 sockets in 3 bedrooms/hall is quite a lot of sockets.

 

[3wayselectrical]

was the material quantities your recommendation or the clients as 16 sockets in 3 bedrooms/hall is quite a lot of sockets.

Costomers request/insistance.

 

[morph]

The point I'm trying to make is that £150/day is not enough to to cover overheads, expences and a living wage for a skilled trade. You take your car to a garage for servicing or repair and you'll pay alot more than that for labour. The figuers I've quoted are generalised examples. Here is a case study for you:

3 bed detached referb complete rewire.
parts = £1350 (this inatal called for 47 fire rated downlights, 28 double sockets on the ground floor, 16 sockets 1st floor)
commition on parts = £100
Labour = 12 days @ £150/day = £1800
test & commitioning = £50
quote total = £3,300

Th job was awarded to a quote of £2,450.

good luck with that !

 

[hyperloop]

Ive recently completed a 3 bed rewire (inhabited) with 19 additional double sockets!!! new dual rcd DB all certificated - £2150. Completed in 2 weeks, after parts and plastering around £1400. £700 per week labour which im happy with yes it was hard work, but theres a recession on and better to get the work than bury your head in the sand and moaning about how much you could charge before everyone was skint!

 

[3wayselectrical]

If you can get that sortof work on a regular basis then yes you can make a living at it. How many of these total rewire contracts do you get in a year? Once you've paid out for insurance, registration, bank charges, accountants fees etc. hoe much profit do you put in your pocket? As a limited company it costs me about £5000 per year in the above mentioned overheads without taking into account milage and time spent producing quotes and all the paperwprk involved. If you could do 1 rewire a month them you may stand a chance of breacking even. 2 rewires a month (and thats going some) you may even get to pay yourself a wage at those rates.
An average rewire is about £3500.00, that's £1500.00 for materials and £2000.00 labour. If you can crack it off in 2 weeks that's £25.00/hour which is not unreasonable as an hourly rate for a skilled worker when compared to for instance servicing or repairing your car which is on average £50.00/hour is it ?

 

[Rampage]

.....which is send from a fixed premise, so they have the same overheads plus:
Council Tax,
Business rates,
heating, lighting and power,
buidlings insurance,
higher cost business insurance,
maintenanc costs,
cleaning etc.

 

[Lux]

I would like to think that these guys that are ridiculously under cutting will not last to long and they certainly wont be getting any repeat business. If you don't make enough on a job then you certainly don't want to be going back to fix all the faults that are caused by all the shortcuts taken. Good luck to the cheapskate homeowners as well, you get what you pay for I say.

 

[Deleted member 19807]

I would like to think that these guys that are ridiculously under cutting will not last to long and they certainly wont be getting any repeat business. If you don't make enough on a job then you certainly don't want to be going back to fix all the faults that are caused by all the shortcuts taken. Good luck to the cheapskate homeowners as well, you get what you pay for I say.

they may not last long but there is a constant stream of new ones thinking they can do the job for next to nothing and leaving a trail of poor work behind them.

 

[needasparks]

As long as its acceptable to change a light bulb in your own garage and use that job to get qualified to work in the industry then the trail of poor work will continue.

They stand out like a sore thumb in the wholesalers in white plimpsoles and no socks !

 

[3wayselectrical]

Half the problem is that the new legislation is far too complcated and most customers are either confused or completely cluless as to what and what ins't work which requires a registered electrician. With six different registration bodies, most of whome the average person has never heard of and no real logical ruling on what is a restricted location; for instance kitchen, bathroom, out door installation but not utility room ( eh? ). It is all too easy for them to be led down the garden path as to who is or is not capable to do the work.
Why not have a simple liscence with your mug shot on it, issued to you as a cirtified electrician. A data base can be made to ensure that all your qualifications are up to date and a points sytem for transgressors. Your liscence fee is part of the cirtification cost which is either by exmination or assesement. If the work involved is anything more than changing a light bulb then its down to a qualified electrician who has to show the liscence to the punter before he starts the work. All that is needed then is the liscence number on the test cert and your signature and everybody knows whos done what when where and most of all properly.

 

[needasparks]

I seem to remember that Tommy Walsh trying to get that with the CSCS card but the only people that took it up was the big construction companies.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Half the problem is that the new legislation is far too complcated and most customers are either confused or completely cluless as to what and what ins't work which requires a registered electrician. With six different registration bodies, most of whome the average person has never heard of and no real logical ruling on what is a restricted location; for instance kitchen, bathroom, out door installation but not utility room ( eh? ). It is all too easy for them to be led down the garden path as to who is or is not capable to do the work.
Why not have a simple liscence with your mug shot on it, issued to you as a cirtified electrician. A data base can be made to ensure that all your qualifications are up to date and a points sytem for transgressors. Your liscence fee is part of the cirtification cost which is either by exmination or assesement. If the work involved is anything more than changing a light bulb then its down to a qualified electrician who has to show the liscence to the punter before he starts the work. All that is needed then is the liscence number on the test cert and your signature and everybody knows whos done what when where and most of all properly.

Not sure of your age old mate but I was told back in 1970 that this is what was coming into force. A body that will register you and ensure that proper qualified electricians can only work on electrics .............it was called the JIB and I had to do a JIB approved apprenticeship, which I did. and it never ever got off the ground, in the end it was never a legislated body as such, just the start of us having to pay someone for doing something for us.

41 yrs later we are still wanting a licence but unfortunately it will never come because we have too many limbs to our electrical tree. Would you have grades of licence, such a DI one, an alarms one, a UPS one, perhaps a fire alarms one, or an industrial one, or perhaps a off shore one or explosive environments one, the list would be endless and we have this all with the JIB.

Unfortunately IMO there is no real training for an "electrician" or very little. You can't train apprentices to be rounded electricians when there is very little industry to train them on, or very little variety on commercial installations the scope is not there now and the whole industry is in turmoil.

As an apprentice I done fire alarms, single and 3 phase installation, wired control panels, learnt how to run containment and how to pull in 240mm armoured, how to run data cables in offices and install industrial kitchens and laundries and even managed to rewire a few houses when projects were on hold. Wonder what licence I would get.

 

[Engineer54]

Not sure of your age old mate but I was told back in 1970 that this is what was coming into force. A body that will register you and ensure that proper qualified electricians can only work on electrics .............it was called the JIB and I had to do a JIB approved apprenticeship, which I did. and it never ever got off the ground, in the end it was never a legislated body as such, just the start of us having to pay someone for doing something for us.

41 yrs later we are still wanting a licence but unfortunately it will never come because we have too many limbs to our electrical tree. Would you have grades of licence, such a DI one, an alarms one, a UPS one, perhaps a fire alarms one, or an industrial one, or perhaps a off shore one or explosive environments one, the list would be endless and we have this all with the JIB.

Unfortunately IMO there is no real training for an "electrician" or very little. You can't train apprentices to be rounded electricians when there is very little industry to train them on, or very little variety on commercial installations the scope is not there now and the whole industry is in turmoil.

As an apprentice I done fire alarms, single and 3 phase installation, wired control panels, learnt how to run containment and how to pull in 240mm armoured, how to run data cables in offices and install industrial kitchens and laundries and even managed to rewire a few houses when projects were on hold. Wonder what licence I would get.

Trainee 1st grade. You haven't got the latest buckshee C&G numbers.....Only the old one's, so you can't be that much cop!! Right?? ...lol!!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

I have the 2382 and the 2377 so I must be approved at least

 

[Engineer54]

I have the 2382 and the 2377 so I must be approved at least

To be totally honest now, i haven't got a clue what C&G certs i've got, i think there were around 5 or 6 of them in total. vaguely remember, a something 60 being on one or two of them. Never needed to produce them, only my ever needed my O and H diplomas once or twice.

Maybe my sister still has them somewhere after my parents house clearing when my mother passed away, i'll have to ask her...lol!! They must still be in the original envelopes too if she does have them. ...lol!!

But on the other hand, my Degree and Chartership has so many bits of red ribbon and wax seals on them, from various British embassies and other bodies attesting their validity, ...they are almost unrecognisable anymore ...lol!!

 

[Specialist]

[2 months into the job said customer phones me in tears, they have been living in a hotel for 2 months with a 1 month old baby and said electrician still felt it would be another 8 weeks.

Another 8 WEEKS!! - the sparky must have been doing it on the side out of hours!!![/QUOTE]

Yep & even then he must have been working at a snails pace.

 

[Specialist]

Would they be the installers that part p was supposed to get rid of? Hehe

Fat chance of that happening.

 

[trev]

We can live in hope specialist but I think you're right