I thought they were history

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T

trev

Out in Newcastle with the Grandson today (if you're up here the discovery museum is well worth a visit) we walked past Grey's Monument and the National Front were out with banners proclaiming Britain for the British, Brits against grooming, bring back capital punishment. Only half a dozen of them and I think by the sound of them their collective IQ didn't scrape into double figures.
I honestly thought they had disappeared without trace a couple of years ago.
 
The word on the streets in Shropshire is, you lot up north are thinking about bringing back the Halifax Gibbet.:wink:
That will liven up things a bit...lol
 
dingledong said:
Even if it's 100% proven thAt the person did it ? As N example the killers of Lee rigby
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No.

The very worst thing you can do to a human being is deprive them of their freedom. - for ever!!

The same four walls, the same bed, table & chair and the same mind-numbing routine day after day for the rest of their life.

That has to be worse than the sudden stop at the end of the rope.
 
Geordie Spark said:
No.

The very worst thing you can do to a human being is deprive them of their freedom. - for ever!!

The same four walls, the same bed, table & chair and the same mind-numbing routine day after day for the rest of their life.

That has to be worse than the sudden stop at the end of the rope.
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Indeed. But it's galling that it costs so much to keep them there. (About £40k per year.)
 
Geordie Spark said:
No.

The very worst thing you can do to a human being is deprive them of their freedom. - for ever!!

The same four walls, the same bed, table & chair and the same mind-numbing routine day after day for the rest of their life.

That has to be worse than the sudden stop at the end of the rope.
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If it was that kind of hardship in prison!

If the media is to be believed then prison life is not too bad for them.
 
davesparks said:
If it was that kind of hardship in prison!

If the media is to be believed then prison life is not too bad for them.
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Not too bad???

Not being able to go to the pub, the beach, the country, take a holiday, visit friends & family, not being able to change the decor of your room when you want and to something you like. To wear the same style clothing every day. To be woken at the same time every morning and to eat at the same times every day from a very limited menu for the rest of your life!!

I can think of nothing worse!!

Do NOT believe everything that you read in the papers or see on TV- in fact, don't believe anything unless you've seen it with your own eyes!!
 
trev said:
No, nor me. I'm firmly against capital punishment.
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So am I.
Possibly an age/maturity thing.

When I was younger, very much younger, school age, it seemed like an expedient. Job done and dusted.
Dispatch, a one shot deal, rather than paying for a life term for a scroat in jail. Blunt and crude. But that's youth for you.

But age and a dose of reality changed my thinking.
Killing is just plain wrong. Killing a killer is just about as illogical as you can get. Based on stats, it isn't even a deterrent.

Then you have the possibility of error. The Guildford Four and Birmingham Six come to mind.
 
Geordie Spark said:
Not too bad???

Not being able to go to the pub, the beach, the country, take a holiday, visit friends & family, not being able to change the decor of your room when you want and to something you like. To wear the same style clothing every day. To be woken at the same time every morning and to eat at the same times every day from a very limited menu for the rest of your life!!

I can think of nothing worse!!

Do NOT believe everything that you read in the papers or see on TV- in fact, don't believe anything unless you've seen it with your own eyes!!
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You seem to be describing my life as a child. If instead of fruitlessly attempting to earn rewards by being a good boy, and gone around taking things and got caught at some point and sent to 'prison' I would have been given decent meals and got the new clothes, games console and bicycle I wanted so badly. I might even have had an apprenticeship handed to me instead of having to do it all myself. In the best scenario I would have got the stuff I'd stolen.
Now where's the lesson in that?
 
Adam W said:
You seem to be describing my life as a child. If instead of fruitlessly attempting to earn rewards by being a good boy, and gone around taking things and got caught at some point and sent to 'prison' I would have been given decent meals and got the new clothes, games console and bicycle I wanted so badly. I might even have had an apprenticeship handed to me instead of having to do it all myself. In the best scenario I would have got the stuff I'd stolen.
Now where's the lesson in that?
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One of our neighbours is a prison officer, it isn't the holiday camp that the Daily Fail would have you believe Adam. I've had the regime described to me in some detail.
 
This might sound a bit weired but I've studied capital punishment from around the world. The long drop hanging method and table of drops needed to break the spinal cord devised by william marwood in the late 19th century is the most humain method and is still used today in parts of the old commonwealth. I was untill recently completely against a return of capital punishment in the uk but some events and crimes in recent times have changed my mind and believe it needs readdressing but don't think it a thing that can be rushed back into lightly. Honestly though if they had public vote id be a for a return. Something needs to change in this country and soon.
 
I couldn't bring myself to support the return of the death penalty. If one mistake/miscarriage of justice happens it's too many and over the years there have been many, Timothy Evans, The Guildford 4, the Birmingham 6 are famous examples of miscarriages that either did or would have resulted in innocent people being hanged.
The argument that it has some sort of deterrent value is false imo, many of the countries where it is practiced have a far higher rate of violent crime and murder than we do here so how is it possibly acting in the manner that some people claim?
Most murders are committed in the heat of the moment where people are not thinking of the consequences of their actions or happen when the perpetrator thinks he or she will get away with it.
Those who seek martyrdom should not be given it by the justice system.
Why would the government kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong
 
trev said:
I couldn't bring myself to support the return of the death penalty. If one mistake/miscarriage of justice happens it's too many and over the years there have been many, Timothy Evans, The Guildford 4, the Birmingham 6 are famous examples of miscarriages that either did or would have resulted in innocent people being hanged.
The argument that it has some sort of deterrent value is false imo, many of the countries where it is practiced have a far higher rate of violent crime and murder than we do here so how is it possibly acting in the manner that some people claim?
Most murders are committed in the heat of the moment where people are not thinking of the consequences of their actions or happen when the perpetrator thinks he or she will get away with it.
Those who seek martyrdom should not be given it by the justice system.
Why would the government kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong
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I quite agree with you trev and your arguements against are the same I used to and in some respect still believe but now we have the technolgy to prove beyond doubt the guilt of the people who commit these crimes. The examples you quote such Evans are very few and I hope that the evans/ christie case would have a different out come today has would the guilford 4 & birmingham 6. Take the hanratty case his family fot years beleived he was innocent and was wrongly hanged but when his remains werw exhumed and tested for his dna it proved his guilt. Im affraid getting the wrong person today is so slim the using that arguement against the return has long since gone.
 
Take a look at the innocence project Bes. There's people on death row in the US who's guilt is under considerable doubt, there's no reason to suspect that the same would not happen here.
I agree with what you said about some things desperately needing to change in this country but a return to capital punishment would be a backward step, it has no place in a modern, civilised country. Not for me anyway.
 
Since the return of capial punishment in the 70s USA the time between sentance and excution has become ridiculous in some cases 30 yrs I certainly don't want that to happen in the uk. The american justice system is completly differnt to ours and you have to remember each state has its own laws on the death penalty. I agree there has been a vast number of innocent people in the states executed and the vast majority of executions now take place in the bible belt that in it self must tell you something very difficult to compare the states justice system and death penalty laws to the uk.
 
The death penalty in the US is something of a lottery, you're far more likely to be sentenced to death if you're poor, black and poorly educated whereas over here if you were found guilty you were sentenced to hang, no ifs or buts. Whether the sentence was carried out is another matter so I appreciate your point.
I wouldn't like to join a club which boasts members such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea and China. All countries not well renowned for their human rights records
 
Have to agree the National Front are not my kind of political party (Adolf would have liked them) But noticed the thread going off on a tangent about capital punishment and I believe there is a place for it
mass murderers like Peter Sudcliffe Child killers like Ian Huntly,Mark Bridger, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.

As mentioned earlier money is a factor too the likes of Ian Huntley playing on His Xbox with the latest games (Fact a friend works at Wakefield prison believe Huntley is now in Durham) and then Prisoner compensation claims for jail attacks (why should they get compensation)

Bring back the rope for the above and similar offences
 
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I agree trev those countries have an appauling record on human rights. But there has been in recent years to many cases in this country that could have been proven beyond doubt and the people who commited these crimes need to be dealt with more severly that they are. The world is changing and so should the way we deal with certain types if people who commit certain types of crimes. Im not saying eye for an eye in anyway but there is a certain type of person who commits a crime that's so appauling that even life in prison without the chance of release is not enough.
 
So to demonstrate that killing people is wrong the state kills people? That doesn't make sense to me. Another point worth mentioning is that in my opinion to be an advocate of the death penalty you have to be prepared to pull that lever. Could you do that and live with yourself? It;s very easy to say yes but have a think about it. It's not a him or you situation where you're fighting for your life, it's a cold blooded, methodical process.
 
I am not Talking about murder any of us can commit murder without meaning to but theres the serial murderers Doctor Shipman and countless others proved without doubt to be guilty who want the rope
Yes I could and would pull the lever on any of the B*$t***$ mentioned who are still with us and sleep soundly

Do not want mandatory death sentences for murder

Up to 1998 you could still be hanged for treason! but now we are in Europe human rights prevent this so it wont be coming back anytime soon
 
Could you live with yourself if one of them was later proven to be innocent? All I'm meaning by that is no system is 100% infallible, mistakes have been made in the past and could be made in the future.

Until the final abolition you could have been hanged for getting in the queen's way. Obstructing the passage of the monarch was the name of the crime but to the best of my knowledge no one had even been charged with it so I' not sure what your point is with "Up to 1998 you could still be hanged for treason". We've been in what is now the EU since the early 1970s. The human rights laws which have been denigrated in the tory press this week were actually fought for by none other than Winston Spencer Churchill and you'll not find many in history that were more tory than him.
 
In London gang shootings are not a heat of the moment thing ,are they ? I agree with innocent people being found guilty but if it's proven beyond doubt is Lee rigby's death and some of these gang shootings ,Ian Huntley then I think yes
 
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Well Newcastle can be like the land that time forgot so if the NF are going to be found anywhere Newcastle won't be far off the top of that list

As for prison/capital punishment etc prisons nowhere near as harsh and unforgiving as it should be, compensation for attacks while in prison is a joke, being able to have access to education that would cost thousands for a normal tax payer, games consoles and the like too really shouldn't have their place in our prisons they should be brutal evil places where scum are left to rot, all these Paedo rings, child killers and rapists that get ****y little sentences and an easy ride while inside should be jailed til they are carried out in boxes and everyday day they are in there should have them beaten, tortured and abused right up until their last, that would be more of a fitting punishment than a death sentence and a better deterrent
 
trev said:
Could you live with yourself if one of them was later proven to be innocent? All I'm meaning by that is no system is 100% infallible, mistakes have been made in the past and could be made in the future.......
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That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the list of people who were on death row in the US and were later exonerated of the crimes they were found guilty of committing.
 
"prisons nowhere near as harsh and unforgiving as it should be"
You know this how exactly?
"compensation for attacks while in prison is a joke" if society puts them there then they should kept safe otherwise we're no better than Stalinist Russia.
" being able to have access to education that would cost thousands for a normal tax payer" Being poorly educated is often the reason people end up there. Rehabilitation has to be part of the system.
"beaten, tortured and abused" Yes, let's join that exclusive club of countries which have no regard for human rights tomorrow, the government want us to anyway so we may as well. Which human right do you want rid of first?
The right to vote?
The right to freedom from arrest without just cause?
How about the right to a fair and open trial?
Or freedom of belief?
The right to criticise the government?

 
says a lot for the american justice system. their lawyers play trials as a game. it's all in the winning. whether the accused is guilty or not is irrelevant.
 
Marvo said:
That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the list of people who were on death row in the US and were later exonerated of the crimes they were found guilty of committing.
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Bloody hell, 146 people who (under the British system of executions being carried out after 3 Sunday from the date of sentencing) all would have hanged.
The magic, infallible DNA being part of the evidence in 20 of those cases.
 
The interesting thing is that you would think with DNA evidence in the more recent convictions they would be more foolproof and less likely overturned later on but;

To begin with, exonerations from death row have not declined in recent years. In fact, the number of people that were freed in 2003 was more than in any year since death sentencing resumed in 1973. Twelve people were cleared of their original offense in 2003. Moreover, the average number of exonerations has steadily increased in each quarter of the total years covered in this report: 1973-2004 (see chart on p. 2). source
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Also please note the list I originally linked was up to 2004 only but it was more than sufficient to make the point anyway which is that the legal/justice system is fundamentally flawed ergo introducing the death penalty will undoubtedly result in many deaths of innocent people.

I'm sure if you scratch around online you'll find more recent statistics.
 
That's American though
Ok another question how about this jihadist John who seems to like beheading people if we captured him should he have the death sentence ,
And trev prisons aren't that bad , not good but not bad they could be a lot worse
 
dingledong said:
That's American though....
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There's no UK statistics available because you don't have the death penalty. The US is a fair indication though, they have an adversarial justice system same as the UK, their police force has similar involvement in the prosecution, the presumption of innocence is given to the accused until evidence beyond reasonable doubt refutes this and they have similar evidence techniques available such as DNA etc. If you want to go down that road you'd need to state differences in the two systems that you could point to which might mean the outcome in the UK would be that prosecutions would be more reliable.
 
dingledong said:
......Ok another question how about this jihadist John who seems to like beheading people if we captured him should he have the death sentence
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I don't personally know 'jihadist John' but pointing at individual candidates for the death penalty doesn't detract from the fact that if you do introduce it you need to have the stomach for the inevitable innocent victims of the legal system who will have been wrongfully executed. Going by the hoo-har you get in the UK press everytime there's a wrongful conviction even when you don't have the death penalty I get the impression as a nation you don't.
 
All people who go to court are individuals ,so every case is individual
I can only think of a couple of things that are different between us and US
So your saying there is no crime heinous enough that would warrant the death penalty in your view
War criminal a person like Adolf eichmann
A serial killer ,
I do think there are some crimes that do deserve the death penalty but as you say would innocent people be killed ! ! !
It's a hard decision but with modern forensics etc I would say the odds are getting better on correct convictions
 
BES said:
I quite agree with you trev and your arguements against are the same I used to and in some respect still believe but now we have the technolgy to prove beyond doubt the guilt of the people who commit these crimes. The examples you quote such Evans are very few and I hope that the evans/ christie case would have a different out come today has would the guilford 4 & birmingham 6. Take the hanratty case his family fot years beleived he was innocent and was wrongly hanged but when his remains werw exhumed and tested for his dna it proved his guilt. Im affraid getting the wrong person today is so slim the using that arguement against the return has long since gone.
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I admire your optimism and would say you have a Hell of a lot more faith in technology than I ever will have and even if technology is 101% reliable it still relies on a human to operate it and -as we see here on this forum - some humans are real muppets!!
 
dingledong said:
.......So your saying there is no crime heinous enough that would warrant the death penalty in your view
War criminal a person like Adolf eichmann
A serial killer ,
I do think there are some crimes that do deserve the death penalty but as you say would innocent people be killed ! ! !
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You're asking my personal opinion of whether the death penalty is a fitting punishment? This has nothing in common with the question of whether it should be introduced.

I've already stated I think it shouldn't be introduced because of the sheer volume of innocent people convicted.

If you want my opinion on whether I'd personally like to see perpetrators of heinous crimes executed then yes, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I also wouldn't have a problem with them having various internal and external body parts surgically removed and force fed to them beforehand but this would only be at a time when the justice system is foolproof which is never which means I'd still never advocate the death penalty.


dingledong said:
It's a hard decision but with modern forensics etc I would say the odds are getting better on correct convictions
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Modern forensics don't seem to be reducing the figure as I mentioned in this post. http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...-thought-they-were-history-3.html#post1011838
 
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Marvo said:
You're asking my personal opinion of whether the death penalty is a fitting punishment? This has nothing in common with the question of whether it should be introduced.

I've already stated I think it shouldn't be introduced because of the sheer volume of innocent people convicted.

If you want my opinion on whether I'd personally like to see perpetrators of heinous crimes executed then yes, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I also wouldn't have a problem with them having various internal and external body parts surgically removed and force fed to them beforehand but this would only be at a time when the justice system is foolproof which is never which means I'd still never advocate the death penalty.



Modern forensics don't seem to be reducing the figure as I mentioned in this post. http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...-thought-they-were-history-3.html#post1011838
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i will be honest marvo the biggest problem i have is them letting the murderes out they are only sentenced to 25 years and out early if they behave themselfs!!!!
 
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shanky887614 said:
i will be honest marvo the biggest problem i have is them letting the murderes out they are only sentenced to 25 years and out early if they behave themselfs!!!!
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But in the 15 years they might serve they're supposed to be rehabilitated into a person that can be reintegrated into society. If they're not then the correctional services aren't doing their job
 
shanky887614 said:
i will be honest marvo the biggest problem i have is them letting the murderes out they are only sentenced to 25 years and out early if they behave themselfs!!!!
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It's not just the case for murderers though Shanky. All prison inmates get remission for good behaviour, I think it should be the other way round. You'll serve all your sentence but if you act up you'll get time added on.
 
classing all Immigration as scroungers and the government winding people up about it, and now the death penalty, we as a nation need to move forward into the 21st century, not back to the 15th.
 
trev the problem with 'human rights' is that they never seem to benefit the people who most need them, and always seem to be exploited by those who know how to play the system, ie those who are least deserving of them.
Take Abu Qatada - he was a nuisance. An expensive nuisance. He claimed to hate this country yet wouldn't leave. Him and his family were claiming a fortune in benefits yet not only not contributing but trying to bring down the country that was supporting him. Meanwhile decent, hard-working people get short-changed by the system and are left to struggle.
It's the same with the benefits system - people work their whole lives paying into the system, then when they come to need some help in return they're told they're on their own, meanwhile the likes of Peter Rolfe are there shaping their lifestyle around milking as much out of the system as possible.

Nobody is against helping the poor and needy, but giving to anyone who holds out their hand is an unsustainable model. Often the most deserving are those too proud to ask for help.
 
Why you don't see the human rights act working for the people who need them is that it sits quietly in the background until someone needs it just saying "naughty naughty" to the government and their various agencies.
You would notice it if it were gone trust me, it would leave us all open to any abuse that any government decided to throw at us.
Theresa May stood up at the tory conference last year banging on about how one particulatr miscreant couldn't be deported, her exact words- "I'm not making this up, because he had a cat"
The only problem with that is that she did make it up, so if a senior minister is prepared to lie to her own conference and to the electorate what else is she prepared to do?
 
Yes lots of old age pensioners are to proud to claim what is rightfully theirs it seems . Will wait 6 months for a hospital appointment with no moans
 
trev said:
Why you don't see the human rights act working for the people who need them is that it sits quietly in the background until someone needs it just saying "naughty naughty" to the government and their various agencies.
You would notice it if it were gone trust me, it would leave us all open to any abuse that any government decided to throw at us.
Theresa May stood up at the tory conference last year banging on about how one particulatr miscreant couldn't be deported, her exact words- "I'm not making this up, because he had a cat"
The only problem with that is that she did make it up, so if a senior minister is prepared to lie to her own conference and to the electorate what else is she prepared to do?
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How do you know it was made up as I remember that
 
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