Install cert required if eicr has been done

[Deleted member 26818]

Let’s get a couple of things straight.
First off an EICR is a report on whether an installation is safe for continued use, not a report to say whether it is safe to make alterations or additions.
If you want to conduct an EICR to check whether it’s safe to change tails and a CU, that’s your decision.
It’s not something required by BS7671.
Secondly an EIC is a record of the work conducted, a record of appropriate inspections and tests, comments on the existing installation (if any), a recommendation as to when the installation should be inspected, a signed confirmation by the designer, installer and inspector that the work complies with the Regulations and a record of when the work was completed.
It’s also required by BS7671, unlike an EICR.

 

[Christopher Bernard]

How do you know that the RCDs are not faulty or that they haven't added to your Zs value as I've had that before, It provides a written record of the work after you've completed.

As others have stated, it's required by both bs7671 and part p.

 

[westward10]

Should that person be touching electrical work, probably not.
Is there legislation to stop him, definitely not.

 

[Wilko]

Hi Thomas, you've asked a question and there are several good reasons given why an EIC is necessary for a board change. Did this answer your question Thomas?

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

Your main question is if you have done an EICR then why do you need to fill out and EIC? The main reason for me is that you have pulled the main consumer unit apart breaking all the earth readings and continuity readings until you have put them back into the new consumer unit.Once fitted,how do you now know that all your earth wires are correctly seated etc unless you retest every circuit and noting the readings down? You might have left an earth wire out by accident.Retesting would prove this.
The values can change considerably on the change from old board to new board so the EICR results can become irrelevant.Also,like i said in my first post,all the breakers,rcd configurations will have changed so the EICR becomes null and void.

 

[Pete999]

If i do an eicr before i change a consumer unit do i still have to do an installation cert after changing the board?

BS 7671 Requires an EIC on completion of the work it does not say that any circuit that does not comply must be put right, other than NOT to connect it in to the new CU.
The BPG says that an EICR is recommended prior to a change, but if the customer refuses to pay for one, then a pre work check should be undertaken to ensure that the circuits that are existing will not cause unnecessary tripping of the RCDs, the EIC is for the work that you carry out, i,e, the CU change, nothing else read the guide it is after all good practice.

 

[buzzlightyear]

op, the idea to do EICR first to check every thing first before hand
e.g. earths on light fitting class 1 etc. to make sure it comply to
BS 7671 .on the other hand you might find in stalling a new c/u that
some circuits have no earths on class 1 light fittings or you find VIR cable on that circuit no earths and has perished .

 

[Octopus]

OP - a quick look at the CU and the cabling will give you a good idea is an EICR would be necessary before a CU change.

I only insist in doing an EICR in about 1 in 40 changes.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I only ever do a full eicr prior to a change of cu when it is old and you get the sense diy dave has worked on it over the years.
Prior to any change i check a couple things such as end to end on rings. R2 on radials. IR depending on condition of cable and whether there are cureently rcds. Bonding and a Ze test. Condition of tails and my favourite borrowed neutrals on the landing lights. It saves aggro later.
Prior to a change i also have a ritual of dancing. Screaming like a nutter and placing a pint of cider in my fridge to welcome the seal fairy along on the job. Its most important to make offerings to the seal fairy.

 

[davesparks]

I do installation certs for new board changes. I’m not looking for some robot to quote regs at me. By replacing the cu with an rcd board i am improving the safety so why?? Do i have to do the same test again to get the same results

Whether or not you repeat all of the tests is up to you, you should still certify the compliance of the work you have carried out, this is done by completing an EIC.
If I was doing a CU replacement I would do the inspection and dead tests beforehand and the live tests afterwards. I certainly wouldn’t go to the trouble of writing up an EICR.

If however I was being employed to carry out an EICR then I would do so and if a new CU was required that would be a completely separate job.

 

[richy3333]

Sometimes I really despair at questions asked! OP - presumably you're with the NICEIC or SELECT if working in Scotland. Ask them the question if you dont know the answer?

 

[ipf]

If i do an eicr before i change a consumer unit WHY do i still have to do an installation cert after changing the board?

Original Post.
Something tells me you should have put a 'WHY' in there.
The original question was fully answered in #2.

 

[dksanders]

What regulation says you must do an installation cert after changing a board?
Good practice guide says you should do it but im only asking why i should Have to do an installation cert after i have done an eicr which is more thorough and i havent installed any circuits.

You've installed a CU or had you forgotten that.......

You've also changed all the terminations, possibly introduced a fault by nicking insulation, mixing wires (we've all done it no matter how sure we've not) so you have to be able to prove that you left the installation in a safe condition, you've changed the protective devices including RCDs so now need to record and certify the new circuit values, RCD operating times etc.

Sorry but there's no getting away from it, at minimum I always do resistance insulation tests so I know what faults are likely to exist before introducing RCDs/RCBOs as part of the new CU, and then a full EICR after the CU installation. All of which is covered in my price for the job.

 

[ipf]

You've installed a CU or had you forgotten that.......


Sorry but there's no getting away from it, at minimum I always do resistance insulation tests so I know what faults are likely to exist before introducing RCDs/RCBOs as part of the new CU, and then a full EICR after the CU installation. All of which is covered in my price for the job.

Am I missing something? Do you do a completion cert and a conditions report?

 

[Pete999]

Am I missing something? Do you do a completion cert and a conditions report?

I think the problem is ipf is that, most do a few tests to make sure that after the CU has been changed there will be no embarrassing issues of the recently addition of RCDs have not produced any unwanted tripping.

The problem as I see it is once you have changed the CU you do an EIC on the work you have done. i,e, change the CU, that leaves the existing circuits IR tested at the least but nothing else tested, continuity, Zs, R1+R2 where applicable, cpc continuity and main bonding, although some will question the bonding issue, so the question is, how do we approach a CU change?

The consensus is an EICR is the best way forward prior to a CU change, if however the client won't agree to paying for an EICR prior to a CU change, then an EIC for the CU change is all the client will get, I feel a change in the method/rules is in need of clarification, mind you there will be some who disagree with this, hence my statement of the need for a rule change.

 

[ipf]

I think the problem is ipf is that, most do a few tests to make sure that after the CU has been changed there will be no embarrassing issues of the recently addition of RCDs have not produced any unwanted tripping.

The problem as I see it is once you have changed the CU you do an EIC on the work you have done. i,e, change the CU, that leaves the existing circuits IR tested at the least but nothing else tested, continuity, Zs, R1+R2 where applicable, cpc continuity and main bonding, although some will question the bonding issue, so the question is, how do we approach a CU change?

The consensus is an EICR is the best way forward prior to a CU change, if however the client won't agree to paying for an EICR prior to a CU change, then an EIC for the CU change is all the client will get, I feel a change in the method/rules is in need of clarification, mind you there will be some who disagree with this, hence my statement of the need for a rule change.

I know, Pete. It's just whether they want to pay for a conditions report or not. I've done the odd board change where they don't...so it's a case of noting on the cert that an EICR is recommended for the existing installation.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Even if you did copy the EICR results you would still need to issue an EIC and building control notification for the works carried out

Up here in Scotland it isn't always necessary to notify Building Control of electrical work that has been carried-out. While most electrical work carried-out in a flat requires a building warrant, this isn't the case with a house.

Guidance on electrical work not requiring a warrant (Domestic) - http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Built-Environment/Building/Building-standards/publications/glf2

 

[JK-Electrical]

Should that person be touching electrical work, probably not.
Is there legislation to stop him, definitely not.

Hopefully this sorry situation will change sooner rather than later in Scotland should the Scottish Government get its finger out of its arse and introduce the much-needed legislation that SELECT have been campaigning for.

There are far too many unqualified cowboys and inexperienced, under-qualified boys operating as electricians up here and a weed-out is long overdue. The question of whether or not one of these numptys will end-up killing someone is one of when rather than if.

SELECT Present Case for Regulation to Scottish Government - SELECT - Scotland's Electrical Trade Association - http://www.select.org.uk/select-present-case-regulation-scottish-government/

 

[Octopus]

Part P has done little or nothing to improve electrical installations in England or Wales, so I can't see it helping in Scotland.

 

[delano]

Why are you doing the eicr first?

You do an EICR first because you should do an inspection and test of the installation and remedial work if necessary, before a new CCU is fitted. The EIC is used for notification, using test results after the board change.

 

[Octopus]

You do an EICR first because you should do an inspection and test of the installation and remedial work if necessary, before a new CCU is fitted.

Best you read all the thread ............ I've clarified my views on this and an EICR is not always necessary....

 

[Pete999]

You do an EICR first because you should do an inspection and test of the installation and remedial work if necessary, before a new CCU is fitted. The EIC is used for notification, using test results after the board change.

Would be a good starting point , but what if the client wont pay for an EICR, just wants a new CU (a daft scenario I know) I would always ensure I did an IP test at the least to prove to myself that there will be no surprising RCD trips to make my day into a bad day. The EIC will be for the work the Electrician has done i,e, change the CU.

 

[ipf]

You do an EICR first because you should do an inspection and test of the installation and remedial work if necessary, before a new CCU is fitted. The EIC is used for notification, using test results after the board change.

Wrong. For starters, there is no guarantee that those results will be the same (due to alterations, maybe). If a client wants a change of CU only, that's the job, not remedial work recommended. Don't forget that, by installing rcd protection, at the very least, the safety of the installation is being improved.

 

[Octopus]

This is included on all my CU change estimates:

"NB: If problems are detected during the fuse board change additional work may be required. Such issues and associated costs will be discussed with you, prior to being implemented"

Never had any comments or complaints about it

 

[ipf]

This is included on all my CU change estimates:

"NB: If problems are detected during the fuse board change additional work may be required. Such issues and associated costs will be discussed with you, prior to being implemented"

Never had any comments or complaints about it

Goes without saying IMO (on here, that is). Anything serious is either obvious or is going to be found during testing, anyway.

 

[Octopus]

Goes without saying IMO (on here, that is). Anything serious is either obvious or is going to be found during testing, anyway.

My caveat ensures that the client understands its not a fixed price!

 

[ipf]

My caveat ensures that the client understands its not a fixed price!

Even have it printed on your tie, then?

 

[Pete999]

Even have it printed on your tie, then?

Cravat mate Cravat spelling on this Forum is atrochous

 

[ipf]

Cravat mate Cravat spelling on this Forum is atrochous

Sorry mate, excuse me french.....do you mean that posh fishy stuff..?

 

[Pete999]

Sorry mate, excuse me french.....do you mean that posh fishy stuff..?

What an artichoke?

 

[telectrix]

think he means ant shovey.( that's a sardinia with a brain ).

 

[Pete999]

Sorry mate, excuse me french.....do you mean that posh fishy stuff..?

What an artichoke?

think he means ant shovey.( that's a sardinia with a brain ).

What ever I'm confused.com

 

[telectrix]

you mean confucius. old chinese sage, said that man who eats no meat is a herbivore or a fish. and i know what a Vegan is, I've watched every episode of Star Trek.

 

[Pete999]

you mean confucius. old chinese sage, said that man who eats no meat is a herbivore or a fish. and i know what a Vegan is, I've watched every episode of Star Trek.

Vulcan you Div Vulcan

 

[telectrix]

Vegans .. from the machine Vega, a combination of machines incorporating the earth probe Voyager, wanting to eliminate the carbon infestation ( humans and animals) from this planet,until if found the "Creator". think it was Star Trek 1 or 2. once it had eliminated all animal life, it could then feed on veg. hence vagan. get reading up . pete.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Thought Vegans were from the planetary system of the star Vega?

 

[Pete999]

Vegans .. from the machine Vega, a combination of machines incorporating the earth probe Voyager, wanting to eliminate the carbon infestation ( humans and animals) from this planet,until if found the "Creator". think it was Star Trek 1 or 2. once it had eliminated all animal life, it could then feed on veg. hence vagan. get reading up . pete.

Yes I must admit My memory is slipping, remember it now that you have kindly reminded me, wasn't that Vger which turned out to be a NASA probe Voyager, that had been subjected to an unwanted update, a bit like some members on here, you and me included Old but not quite passed it, or am I dreaming? Live long and prosper.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Dreamer, you’re nothing but a dreamer.

 

[JK-Electrical]

Sometimes I really despair at questions asked! OP - presumably you're with the NICEIC or SELECT if working in Scotland. Ask them the question if you dont know the answer?

Part P has done little or nothing to improve electrical installations in England or Wales, so I can't see it helping in Scotland.

The legislation that SELECT are campaigning to have introduced will recognise electricians as a profession and make it a criminal offence to work as an electrician, or even advertise one's services, if you are not a registered electrician. My understanding is that SELECT and NICEIC will jointly operate the registration scheme and the criteria for being accepted into the scheme will be strict. A qualification to SVQ level 3 or equivalent will be required as will 17th/18th edition qualifications in inspection and testing and BS7671. A valid ECS card will also be necessary. There will also be annual assessments as is already the case down south. This raising of the bar will surely sort the wheat from the tares and ultimately lead to higher standards and safety.

If non-compliant offenders are prosecuted and incur penalties, the scheme should work well. My understanding is that the law is broken down south only when notifiable work isn't notified to the LABC. Is this correct? Would I also be correct to say that anyone can trade in England and Wales as an electrician and carry-out electrical work, and that there is no legal requirement for anyone operating as an electrician to actually be a bona fide qualified electrician?

 

[JK-Electrical]

Dreamer, you’re nothing but a dreamer.

A pretty little dreamer .....

​

 

[mikshim]

Why not just do a Zs test for every circuit, to ensure correct polarity & termination after the change, then RCD tests. Zs would be different from original test, because of RCD's, and trip times would have to be recorded anyway.