Is this EICR OK?

[Tode]

I've had an EICR done on a house, with an unsatisfactory result due to low insulation, so I've been getting quotes to rewire. Bit when I looked at the EICR in detail I noticed that every insulation value on four circuits was identical at 0.5 Megohms. I thought this was unlikely so I asked another electrician, who he said that the tester had probably measured all circuits connected together.

The house dates from 1970. The wiring is PVC and those bits I can see look perfectly OK. Shouldn't the tester have separated the circuits when he found low insulation? For all I know I could be paying for a complete re-wire because of a single faulty socket. Or should I really get a full re-wire without further tests, just because of the age of the house?

Obviously if I now want to find which circuit(s) is (or are) causing the problem, I'll have to pay for another test. Unless I can persuade the first tester to do it again.

I am not concerned to get an ideal installation at the moment, although of course it must be safe. From a tax point of view, if I am going to make non-essential improvements, it would be better done later.

What should I do?

 

[Brightspark2]

Yes the circuits should of been split up to find the offending circuit (if that is what happened).


If your unsure get a second opinion, IE get it re-tested.

 

[markc123]

The inspector has probably done a GLOBAL IR and took the 0.5Mohm reading for everything. Which as you say is incorrect.

Once he found a low reading, the inspector should have tested every circuit individually.

Also, the low reading could be down to equipment plugged in or vulnerable to test items - meaning, you might have nothing wrong at all. You could flip it the other way though, and coicidently all circuits could be 0.5Mohm then yes a re-wire on all circuits would be needed. (i agree, unlikley)

 

[telectrix]

i would get a second opinion. no need for a full EICR> just ask another spark if he can confirm the IR readings. should only be a call-out up to 1 hour time on site. then if he disagrees, get the 1st guy back to explain.

 

[markc123]

As for what to do - ring the electrician and ask him how and what he did to achieve the 0.5Mohm reading on all circuits.

Question it and request him come back and do it again, if it come's back as a coincidence and everything happens to be completley shot then you'll have to pay double for his test. However, if he's been incompetent in the first place you shouldn't have to pay for the second visit.

Edit : Tel's comment above is more sensible

 

[Octopus]

If you haven't paid the bill, you should ask them to come back and IR each circuit individually....

If you have paid the bill, you should get a different spark to do the tests.

 

[telectrix]

if he has done a global test with a 0.5 meg. reading, he should have then split the circuits to find which one was giving the low value.

 

[Octopus]

I've had an EICR done on a house, with an unsatisfactory result due to low insulation, so I've been getting quotes to rewire. Bit when I looked at the EICR in detail I noticed that every insulation value on four circuits was identical at 0.5 Megohms. I thought this was unlikely so I asked another electrician, who he said that the tester had probably measured all circuits connected together.

The house dates from 1970. The wiring is PVC and those bits I can see look perfectly OK. Shouldn't the tester have separated the circuits when he found low insulation? For all I know I could be paying for a complete re-wire because of a single faulty socket. Or should I really get a full re-wire without further tests, just because of the age of the house?

Obviously if I now want to find which circuit(s) is (or are) causing the problem, I'll have to pay for another test. Unless I can persuade the first tester to do it again.

I am not concerned to get an ideal installation at the moment, although of course it must be safe. From a tax point of view, if I am going to make non-essential improvements, it would be better done later.

What should I do?

I think we need a reality check here before things get too heated.

How big is the property and how much did you pay for the test?

 

[HandySparks]

Just out of interest chaps, how low would you let a global IR test get before testing individually? I've just done an EICR on a fairly new property today with a global L+N to E IR of 85Mohms over 11 circuits and decided that there was no real benefit to testing individually.

 

[Octopus]

Just out of interest chaps, how low would you let a global IR test get before testing individually? I've just done an EICR on a fairly new property today with a global L+N to E IR of 85Mohms over 11 circuits and decided that there was no real benefit to testing individually.

If you go by the book it would be 2Mohms, but I always do individual tests if a global is below 10 Mohms

 

[GMES]

Just out of interest chaps, how low would you let a global IR test get before testing individually? I've just done an EICR on a fairly new property today with a global L+N to E IR of 85Mohms over 11 circuits and decided that there was no real benefit to testing individually.

0.5meg:smilielol5:

 

[Tode]

Thanks everyone for very useful replies.

It's a "starter home" 2 bedrooms. 4 circuits: one ring for both floors, one lighting, cooker, water heater. I paid £110 + VAT, cheapest of 3 quotes. I checked chap is pukka NICEIC. I've been trying to contact him today, no luck yet but hopefully he will be in tomorrow. Your answers will be very useful when I do!

I don't know how much investigation is usual. A long time ago I was an electronic maintenance engineer and my training says: try to find the fault before tearing the house apart! If I was doing it (speaking from ignorance, not having any electricians training), if it turned out to be the ring, I would split it at the far side of the house and successively narrow down the faulty section, hoping to find a dud socket or similar. Obviously I would make sure nothing was connected e.g boiler. (Just had a thought: gas boilers have flame detector between live and earth - what is their resistance tested with a megger?)

I have got other electricians to give quotes for the rewiring. Is that sort of investigation something I could reasonably ask them to do? Surely it is better to spend money on that than replacing floors and kitchen tiles and redecorating to cover new plasterwork.

 

[robsparky1975]

Immersion heater,cooker circuit,it screams neons at me,I have the feeling the tester may have made an error,get him back to check circuits again its only 4 of them,how long was he there for?

 

[Octopus]

Thanks everyone for very useful replies.

It's a "starter home" 2 bedrooms. 4 circuits: one ring for both floors, one lighting, cooker, water heater. I paid £110 + VAT, cheapest of 3 quotes. I checked chap is pukka NICEIC. I've been trying to contact him today, no luck yet but hopefully he will be in tomorrow. Your answers will be very useful when I do!

I don't know how much investigation is usual. A long time ago I was an electronic maintenance engineer and my training says: try to find the fault before tearing the house apart! If I was doing it (speaking from ignorance, not having any electricians training), if it turned out to be the ring, I would split it at the far side of the house and successively narrow down the faulty section, hoping to find a dud socket or similar. Obviously I would make sure nothing was connected e.g boiler. (Just had a thought: gas boilers have flame detector between live and earth - what is their resistance tested with a megger?)

I have got other electricians to give quotes for the rewiring. Is that sort of investigation something I could reasonably ask them to do? Surely it is better to spend money on that than replacing floors and kitchen tiles and redecorating to cover new plasterwork.

I doubt its the wiring, a global IR that low is very fishy. How old is the house?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I've had an EICR done on a house, with an unsatisfactory result due to low insulation, so I've been getting quotes to rewire. Bit when I looked at the EICR in detail I noticed that every insulation value on four circuits was identical at 0.5 Megohms. I thought this was unlikely so I asked another electrician, who he said that the tester had probably measured all circuits connected together.

The house dates from 1970. The wiring is PVC and those bits I can see look perfectly OK. Shouldn't the tester have separated the circuits when he found low insulation? For all I know I could be paying for a complete re-wire because of a single faulty socket. Or should I really get a full re-wire without further tests, just because of the age of the house?

Obviously if I now want to find which circuit(s) is (or are) causing the problem, I'll have to pay for another test. Unless I can persuade the first tester to do it again.

I am not concerned to get an ideal installation at the moment, although of course it must be safe. From a tax point of view, if I am going to make non-essential improvements, it would be better done later.

What should I do?

It may not have been practical for the original inspector to test each circuit individually.It would be necessary to disconnect each neutral wire from the CU in order to do this,and 60/70's CU's were very poorly designed.Often the N bar is tucked away in an inaccessible corner,with the neutrals randomly twisted together,to disconnect them can mean unacceptable disruption and dismantling of the old board,possibly introducing problems which the inspector will then have to rectify before he leaves. If this was the case it should have been clearly stated in the report and that further investigation is required.

 

[Tode]

I agree- my real gripe is that the limitations of the test were not pointed out and the only recommendation was a complete rewire.

Anyway I have now had a discussion with the original tester. As expected he had done only one insulation test. I said that the entries in the EICR form were misleading as values were put in boxes for specific insulation measurements that were quite probably incorrect for those insulations, with no note of the fact. (Maybe this is normal practice, but I still think it's wrong.) He waffled about other defects of the installation, but all the defects he had listed on the EICR could be fixed by a new CU and better earth connection and bonding.

We did not come to an agreement! But shortly afterwards his secretary phoned and offered me a full refund. So I'm grateful for the discussion here, it has helped me understand the issues and get my money back.

I will now arrange for a retest with separate insulation measurements, followed by a bit of investigation paid at an hourly rate. Fingers crossed, I might avoid retiling and replastering.

 

[markc123]

This electrician can afford a secretary????

It's alright for some lol!

 

[Badged01]

This electrician can afford a secretary ....

Every electrician should have one, preferably tall, leggy & with humps and bumps in the right place :wink_smile: ..... but just be careful the wife doesnt apply for the job!

 

[GMES]

Tode, it looks like you have had a lucky escape, get someone decent this time I am sure if you offer the job up on here one of the guys on here may be willing to do the job for you. And I am also glad you got your money back. You are to far for me unless your going to put me up in a glitzy hotel for night. But seriously I am sure someone on here can help you out.

 

[Tode]

Thanks all. I didn't want to be too specfic about who the secretary was.
By the way not all electricians are the same gender. One of my daughters was once a qualified gaffer working on feature films. Her idea of the ideal secretary might not be the same as that mentioned above.
I didn't realise I could have offered the job on this forum. For now, I have organised someone who sounds sensible. He will re-test, and unless the results show a full rewire is needed I will probably get him to do some investigation, paid at his hourly rate. I'll be there to watch this time!