Latest on the court challenge!!!

[Markc]

REAL have already confirmed that sales between now and confirmation of the rate could be perceived as mis-selling. It's not the higher rate we're worried about it's the lower rate.

Funniest statement I have seen!

I can CONFIRM I don't give a stuff what REAL like to THINK or PERCEIVE.

I say, "Walk a mile in my shoes"............ then.......................(they will be a mile away form me with my shoes!)

Merry Christmas everyone. Have a good one!

 

[pogson6]

jeeze im off snowboarding, here's to feb 2012! lol

 

[Coleman]

Have a good one everyone!!! Till next year when all the madness starts again!! : - /

 

[infinity]

jeeze im off snowboarding, here's to feb 2012! lol

Where to? im off to Tignes, most snow they had in 30yrs have a good one!

 

[Somecamel]

Dependant on the Government losing the Appeal which seems likely- Higher Feed-in Tariff rate now likely to remain until April > Opinion > Opinion | Click Green

Here we go again...

 

[SolarCity]

I just wish I knew.

Jeremy Leggett and co. should be proud of what they have done for the industry.

 

[Broadswordcalli]

Hear Hear. Thanks to Friends of The Earth, Jeremy Leggett and others for mounting this legal challenge. Let's hope the legal powers rule on clarity for 2012 so we all know where we stand, and here's to a happy and peaceful New Year.

 

[Eco Deal]

so in theory if the GOV dont appeal then its back to normal from 4th Jan ?

then april the tariff will drop lower than 21.1p in my op

 

[Somecamel]

Agree with MEP on the tariffs reducing further come April 2012.

The Government deserves everything they get with this but we don't. I would have much preferred a staggered reduction to the tariffs to bring some sort of sustainability to the industry.

However as far as the Law is concerned the Government broke it and we'll be the ones that end up paying for this cock up

 

[SRE]

If the 43p goes ahead then the last 10% of the budget will be blown quickly and the government is then entitled to make an emergency decision about the funding and could cut it as soon as the funds are spent. It won't take long (weeks I reckon)to spend the extra 10% - then we'll be left with the export tariff only.

I'd have preferred an early cut (say Sept) to 30p and 21p from next year to give us a bit of sustainability. There's going to be no solar industry at all if it goes back up to 43p.

 

[Somecamel]

The other option is to increase the 'funding' which has only had a cap on it since the Tories got into power and embrace this new low carbon industry.

Without these new companies who exactly is going to 'invest' in the Governments flagship 'Green Deal'.

The DECC is quite capable of moving funds around from other areas in the short term to cater for this.

 

[SolarCity]

Absolutely. Yes, the budget will be blown.

The sensible response to this would be to recognise the huge benefit that this has had to the economy, the terrific boost that the green industry has received, the positives that many homeowners have installed systems at a fraction of the cost of their German counterparts and the huge leap towards our green targets. With this in mind, adjust the tariff accordingly and allocate more funds.

Meanwhile, sort out the MCS so that it is more than just a paperwork exercise so that customers actually get a genuine benefit from it.

 

[solarsavings]

Meanwhile, sort out the MCS so that it is more than just a paperwork exercise so that customers actually get a genuine benefit from it.

What do you mean by that?

 

[SolarCity]

What do you mean by that?

MCS is a joke. There is nothing to differentiate between a firm full of skilled and able people that will design a tailor made system for the customer and a firm of salespeople that know next to nothing about PV systems.

Becoming MCS accredited is a paperwork exercise and virtually nothing else. A lot of the inspectors have no idea what a well designed system looks like - but they'll be on to you in a flash if you happen to have forgot to log all those phantom meetings that you had with your business partner or failed to indentify a quarantine area for all those none existent faulty panels.

Ask your customers what is important to them and the amount of people that will be even slightly interested in a QMS will be around zero.

The MCS has utterly failed the customer in the Great Solar Gold Rush.

 

[moggy1968]

Got to agree. MCS was designed to avoid what happened in double glazing, infact it turned out even worse. There are too many companies out there using hard sell for over expensive poorly designed and poorly installed systems, Meanwhile I'm here as installer, director and admin man spending days trying to sort out my paperwork for my inspection. It's like a sick joke.

No company should be MCS certified unless they have someone IN HOUSE who has the technical competence and no company should be able to sell solar systems unless they are MCS registered

 

[solarsavings]

Seriously, is any tradesman surprised that has been "required" to be a member of one of the trade bodies that the mcs requirements are total ****e. It was clearly intended to give jobs to suits and grief to the working man.

That's why I get upset when guys slag off our own there's more than enough do that already. And when guides get confused with robust documents and A is then claimed as the only way it should be done.

 

[moggy1968]

indeed, often more than one way to skin a cat!!

 

[Broadswordcalli]

Saucer of milk moggy 1968.

What the f is going on?
We want clarification of everything on Jan 4th, if not just to get on with our lives & livelihoods. Is that too much to ask from our elected representatives?

It's a very very mad world.

Keep the faith.

 

[GoB2Bservices]

The point that seems to be being overlooked IS correctly put by Somecamel.

The TORY stance of slapping the brakes on and (Apparently) not giving much thought to the alternatives. ALWAYS makes me suspicious of politicians, i.e. who benefits if the power struggle to supply the UK with alternative energy is halted, who is disadvantaged?

As a guess I would say ANY lobbying by the NUCLEAR, Major Power Companies or Oil Industry would get a much better response than any of us troublesome swines! (Troublesome swines BECAUSE we take all of the achievable profits but A Are smaller and easily ignored and B Don't contribute to TORY party funds). We are all small players in a fragmented and industry which WAS earning BIG money):smartass:

Where is the cost/benefit analysis of Nuclear (FULL LIFE-CYCLE COSTS?) to Solar and the natural fit/benefit of power at the source of generation improving the efficiency of the national grid?

 

[GoB2Bservices]

[h=1]Comical so I couldn't resist adding here Press release from 30th Dec by DECC.

the MINISTER For Energy LOOKS FORWARD TO "PROSPEROUS 2012" FOR OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY[/h]​

“Oil and gas remains crucial to the UK economy – contributing around 2% to the country’s GDP. Our innovative licensing system continues to make the UK one of the most attractive places to do business.”
(Charles Hendry)
​

[h=2]PRESS REF: 2011/116
30 DECEMBER 2011[/h]​

 

[leroy]

Morning all,

Don't know if it helps but I've just spoken to the DECC about the FIT rate (did try speak to Mr Barker himself but he wouldn't take my call!)... The guy I spoke to said the current FIT rate is 21p and have been told that they don't see it changing (sounded like he knew more than he was telling me) Also that the results from the cosultation won't be released for another 2/3 weeks!

 

[Eco Deal]

hmmmm are we selling at 21p then ? is it not 21.1p

 

[SolarCity]

The guy I spoke to said the current FIT rate is 21p and have been told that they don't see it changing (sounded like he knew more than he was telling me) Also that the results from the cosultation won't be released for another 2/3 weeks!

What a frustrating start to the year. Remember September when everything was simple?

 

[Eco Deal]

I spoke to REAL and NAPIT they could not tell me much I rang DECC but was in a que I hung up in the end !!!

But I have just had an enquiry so people are looking but I had to tell them to call back in a week or two as we are not selling.

 

[JulianC]

Well, since the rate will not drop below 21p between now and April (DECC did at least confirm this if I remember correctly) and I've got all my January pricing info, I am cracking on and quoting for systems based on the 21p rate (with the usual caveats). Can't be waiting for those muppets in charge to sort themselves out.....

 

[SRE]

What if there's no money in the pot and 21p isn't confirmed? Big risk to take - I'm waiting, I can't afford the law suit if my customers take me to court, imagine 3500kwh/pa x 21p x 25 years - that's a lot of money.

I am more inclined to be cautious though

 

[leroy]

The number I rang was 0300 060 4000, option 3 will put you through to an "advisor". They have been given a FAQ sheet from the FIT team with various answers on so will be able to answer some of these questions.

Might be worth a ring for the more cautious of us

 

[SolarCity]

If the FITs rate is 21p and they don't see this changing, can they enlighten us further on why they think this is the case? Exactly what do they make of the court ruling? What will they do if their appeal is unsucessful? What will they do if the FITs money runs out? How long do they think it will be before we get solid figures? What is the grounds for their appeal?

So many vitally important questions. Why isn't Barker answering us?

 

[JulianC]

I can only present the facts and figures to the customer as they currently stand (ie, might be 21p, might be more, could conceivably be less!). I am making no promises or guarantees. It's the customer's decision at the end of the day and to be honest, I don't expect any orders to come trickling in until we get some firm news from Mr. C-rated and his cronies anyway. As I see it I have two options at the moment: quote on 21p but present the possibilities to the customer, or do nothing. In the absence of other work at the moment and there being sod all on TV, I'm opting for the former. However, a family of long tailed ---- have just landed on my feeder so I may watch them for a bit. Easily distracted? Me? Ooh look, a squirrel...

 

[The Launderer]

What a shambles. There are lots of questions and no answers.

1. Assuming government win their appeal is the rate going to be 21p from the 1st April or could it be much less?
2. How long is the appeal process going to take?
3. If the government lose does that mean the old rate remains? If so for how long?
4. Is there any chance of the C category proposal being implemented?
5. If the budget is blown does that mean the end of FITs anyway?

We got into Renewables because we were under the impression that it was the future - now beginning to wonder. Seen a report yesterday that says only Malta and Luxembourg have lower levels of renewables that UK. Just how seriously is the Government taking the whole issue?

 

[SRE]

I'm bogged down with tax returns - I could do with a hand

 

[JulianC]

Send 'em down - as I tell all my customers, my work is appalling but my rates are reasonable!

 

[moggy1968]

the love bugs on the telly :0)

 

[Coleman]

What's going on?? It's doin my head In not knowing what's happening! When is it likely that we'll know what the out come is?

 

[Eco Deal]

malta we love malta

 

[BruceB]

pm 4 Jan 12 statement by DECC:
Feed-in tariff appeal: Statement by DECC spokesperson - Department of Energy and Climate Change
Grounds for appeal have been lodged.

 

[Somecamel]

pm 4 Jan 12 statement by DECC:
Feed-in tariff appeal: Statement by DECC spokesperson - Department of Energy and Climate Change
Grounds for appeal have been lodged.

I can't believe the audacity of these people!! the last paragraph states

'We have also made the point that the judicial review was premature as no decision has yet been taken, and a decision will only be taken after a full analysis of the responses to the consultation.”

Do they even live on the same planet as us mere mortals!!

The JR was made because they brought the cut off date in before the consultation had even ended!!

I'm mad!!​

 

[Yanman]

I wonder how much this is costing us the tax payer as well as us as the installer. They don't have to worry how much they spend on court fees cos its not their money anyway.

Its just gonna drag on and on. Just hope we have businessess after all this.

 

[The Launderer]

Are they deliberately trying to sabotage the industry?

Why are they prolonging this whole fiasco. The grounds for appeal could have been established within 24 hours of the judges decision. Why wait till the last minute of the final day before lodging?

Also, why is government minister, Greg Barker offering to sort the whole mess out on twitter - is that another attempt to muddy the waters? I would like Jeremy Leggett to consider accepting his twitter offer on the provision that it's all agreed this week and we can all get back to work.

 

[Somecamel]

It stinks!! I'm finding it very hard to keep my tweets to GB and DECC clean.

 

[Somecamel]

Why are they prolonging this whole fiasco. The grounds for appeal could have been established within 24 hours of the judges decision. Why wait till the last minute of the final day before lodging?

They are trying to prolong it for as long as they possibly can to destroy us. I for one could now do with having the 43p back until April to pay off all my bills for this month! Still got to pay staff

 

[whinmoor]

There's no real reason to expect Greg Barker to speed things along. His six figure salary as an MP is guaranteed until the next election and he's a millionaire anyway so why should he care about little guys like us? The longer he can stall the industry for, the more of us go bust and the closer it gets to April when a much lower FIT rate can be introduced.

 

[SolarCity]

I read somewhere that as much as 1% of people are psychopaths. I wonder how many of them find their way into government.

 

[TedM]

The DECC appeal document is available here: UK government grounds of appeal on solar subsidy court ruling | Environment | guardian.co.uk

 

[mdovey]

I must confess being confused - I thought that the court case rested on the fact that the proposed deadline was in advanced of the end of the consultation - i.e. was retrospective. That this *is* retrospective is quite clear by considering someone asking the question "what fit will I get if I installed solar panels today?" on say the 14th December 2011. Even without the court-case, DECC could not have given a definitive answer since that would have pre-empted the consultation process. However, without a definitive answer, installers risk mis-selling or violating REA regulations.

However, nothing in the document requesting an appeal refers to this!

Is there a copy of the actual ruling from Mitting J somewhere?

However, the appeal document does confirm that the ruling was to permit a judicial review - which (I think) is not the same as over turning the consultation. i.e. if the appeal fails (or had DECC not appealed), we would still be no clearer on the FIT since we would be waiting on the result of the judicial review.

 

[Earthstore]

What... Just read the document, and part 1 section 2 does not make sense!
Was he not in court because he slashed the FIT for PV? Or did he somehow manage to include all systems that produce electricity without telling the Industry.
If/when he losses this one it should be "off with his head".

 

[Somecamel]

and here's a link to the rules on amending feed in tariffs

Energy Act 2008

 

[TedM]

DECC's appeal is intended to attempt to overturn the decision to allow the Judicial Review to take place.

Plenty in DECC's appeal doesn't make sense. i.e. they seem to have conveniently forgotten that the entire intent of the FiTs scheme was just to incentivise early adopters so that future costs of PV could be reduced and that future installations could be achieved at a market cost that then would not require any FiTs sibsidy. That is to say, the FiTs scheme was designed so as to remove its own need to exist. The only unanswered (and now probably unanswerable) question is whether £867 million is enough to achieve that goal.

If it is enough then it is arguable that it doesn't matter how many households actually benefit in the short term, as everyone will be able to benefit in the longer term.

If this argument is crucial to DECC's point then it is also a solid argument that they should have reduced the tariffs earlier.

 

[flamefix]

Thanks for the Recent Posts.

The appeal argument appears to revolve around section 41 although in Section 42 sub(2) it does appear the Secretary has the right to consult after the cut.
(2)Subsection (1) may be satisfied by consultation before, as well as by consultation after, the passing of this Act.


Ted, unfortunately that could be seen as a tenable argument "it is arguable that it doesn't matter how many households actually benefit in the short term, as everyone will be able to benefit in the longer term. " because it is probably truer to say if the scheme ran for longer because it was properly managed and FIT rate reduced proportionately and steadily then the scheme could arguably prevent the boom and bust and ensure over a longer period a better understanding of the scheme to the layman. As is the case with the better managed German Scheme.

You are indeed right though in your second Para, originally there was no cap and then a cap placed and no thought to regulating the FIT rate despite advice to do so. Now we are where we are and it's a bloody shambles and it's all the Governments own making as per normal. I don't see this ending well personally.

 

[powervan]

Well lads all ive gained from SOLAR PV is non reundable money!bad suppliers!paperwork!stress!SHINGLES! and government bull---t im so glad it was only a sideline! i feel for u lads where its ur main business!