Latest on the court challenge!!!

Discuss Latest on the court challenge!!! in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Personally I am going to sell at 43 pence with a caveat in the contract to cover my back. Main problem being shortage of inverters at the moment. One of my suppliers has already ran out and lead times from manufacturers are shockingly long...according to Krannich Solar they are receiving a large amount of Kaco 4kW inverters next week but SMA are difficult to get hold off. Thank you DECC for making our lives a nightmare!
 
Surboy said:
Personally I am going to sell at 43 pence with a caveat in the contract to cover my back. Main problem being shortage of inverters at the moment. One of my suppliers has already ran out and lead times from manufacturers are shockingly long...according to Krannich Solar they are receiving a large amount of Kaco 4kW inverters next week but SMA are difficult to get hold off. Thank you DECC for making our lives a nightmare!
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Make it a caveat with your customer as well then- It's always best to be honest- not all customers are stupid
 
Surboy said:
Personally I am going to sell at 43 pence with a caveat in the contract to cover my back. Main problem being shortage of inverters at the moment. One of my suppliers has already ran out and lead times from manufacturers are shockingly long...according to Krannich Solar they are receiving a large amount of Kaco 4kW inverters next week but SMA are difficult to get hold off. Thank you DECC for making our lives a nightmare!
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You are WRONG to be selling at 43.3p, And a caveat in your contract compounds that. Make no mistake you are mis selling!!!

If there are installers blatantly admitting their dodgy practices on this forum I dread to think what they are doing in their customers houses.

Given the events of the last few weeks I can understand your frustration but that does not excuse your actions. The customer deserves better advice.

We will be telling customers the guaranteed feed in tariff is 21p and we will hopefully demonstrate that that it is still a great investment. We will also tell them that there is a reasonable possibility that they will get 43.3p as it would appear the government are on very shaky legal ground.

We are selling it as a no risk gamble - guaranteed 21p - good chance of 43.3p but the decision is for the customer - not something to be hidden in the small print of a contract.
 
I am making my customers fully aware of the situation so don't be so quick on making acussations. However the reality is that based on the veredict today by the High Court the FiT has actually gone back to 43 pence. Let's all work together instead of b*tch*ng about each other :wacko:
 
Like that stance Launderer, We will be taking the same position at the End of the Day it works at 21p ! THEY are still missing the point about C-rating !!!!:furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3:
 
What a !!!!!!!! Shambles. We sat down afterxmas break and worked out systems with the new prices we had received from suppliers, and came up with a range of options to make pv viable at 21p (just).
After a slow start we have booked in 5 jobs, so it was slowly getting there, now it's all kicked off again!!!!
suppliers saying stocks are out, blah blah, the prices will go up Again! , and we will all be chasing our tails again.
we have cut our margins to a minimum , so any increases will eat our already meagre profit.
we are only selling at 21p, but advising fittiing before the 3/3 with the chance of a bonus.
we shall see what the next few weeks bring
 
This is all very distracting, is this a serious industry or just mickey mouse !! Even the head of the industry cant get his point across on C4 news ! C-rating c-rating please can the government get on with releasing the FIT reform statement so we know what the future holds not a quick buck flash in the pain ! I'm pricing for multiple LSEG but can not give a definitive answer on what happens after 1 April.
 
It is easy to understand how we all see this differently and by the volume of emails I have received today why it is also easy to jump with both feet to agree to the sales bumf that 43p is reinstated however while it now sits at the supreme court nothing has changed. 43p is not reinstated in any certainty. I have read several emails from national installers that we should act now as the government has acted illegally and the 43p is now back so buy now to not loose out again. Total sales rubbish and miss-selling.

OK the 43p MIGHT be reinstated for systems installed between 12th December 2011 and 3rd March 2012 but until the supreme court rules we just don't know.
 
GLAD TO BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! phone is ringing again for solar but im saying NOOOOOOOOOOOPOINT wont be able to get gear!stress!shingles! NOT WORTH THE HASSLE even if you can charge pre december prices with gear (if u can get it) at post december prices! WHY DONT THEY JUST GO WITH 21P SIMPLES (but thats the problem) too simple!!
 
I know what you mean powervan I fell really ill at Xmas after all the stress pre the 12th. If only politicians realised the suffering they are causing while wasting money in other areas of the economy...
 
I think clarification from REAL would be very useful at this point in time.

I'll be on the phone in the morning asking, not sure if they will have any answers though ...
 
SRE said:
I think clarification from REAL would be very useful at this point in time.

I'll be on the phone in the morning asking, not sure if they will have any answers though ...
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Do you think they will give you a straight answer? Their only goal is to tell us we are miss-selling and slap our wrists (Unless you are a large national and then you can do what the hell you want!) I'm very disappointed with all the regulators and scheme providers for their total lack of support and communication over the recent weeks. After all its not like WE pay THEIR wages is it?
 
I'm down Butlins for an Adult Weekend from Friday- This is my break after the last rush haha- I will come back feeling worse than before I went.
 
TallPaul said:
Anyone want to know the experience of a punter? (me!)

I wanted to get a PV system last years, but in November it was all a bit mad with panel shortages and the uneasy feeling that the people who were available were probably not the best installers, as the best ones were already booked in advance.

Tried this year (assuming 21p) to get a series of quotes, but of course its all gone mad again, so am I doing well if I buy now as there is chance I get 43p (I read ruling as December 12th - March 3rd 43p at the moment, supreme court overrule then its 21p all round) or am I going to pay over the odds for panels as the distributors are going mad and trying to make some money.

More or less tempted to say sod this and wait for April when the madness subsides and I know its 21p, the problem is with roof space for ~4KW system - projection over 25 years is massive difference for 21p to 43p. If I could be sure I was not getting done on the panel price, and able to get a well experienced and stable installer I would just order now as normal.

One thing I can say with 100% certainty as a punter, none of this helps anyone in the industry I expect or the consumers. The only people winning is the government budget that was badly planned and administered.
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Responsible installers should only be quoting you the 21p price, and responsible suppliers should be holding their price on kit - as mine are. It's the stock levels that will be rapidly depleted by chancers trying to speculate. You could still get a 4kWp system sub £10k if you act fast (memories of November spring to mind) if you are happy with the 21p rate - but please contact your preferred supplier immediately to avoid the 1st April uncertainty that we are yet to face!

(we are as embarrassed as you as to the state of the industry)​
 
Somecamel said:
I'm down Butlins for an Adult Weekend from Friday- This is my break after the last rush haha- I will come back feeling worse than before I went.
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Im not shouting :) onest!! REF ADULT weekend ? we talking no kids ? or bit of swinging :)) i would join in but when i strip off my SHINGLES rash may ruin my chances :)))) lol
 
As an anecdotal, we finally commisioned a ~50kWp installation today which we gave the customer every chance to cancel once the announcement of the reduction first came in (6 weeks to complete current installations my a**e - have they not heard of planning regs), but he still wanted to proceed thankfully. We also had our first enquiry this year yesterday @ 21p...and of course the phone has been ringing stupid today after the recent announcement (of nothing really of substance), spam has gone through the roof, and supplier warnings of stock shortages have been received...good luck to us all.
 
GaryM said:
I handed over a deposit last night for a 4kW system to be installed next Thursday. I'd like to bet the same deal would be £2K more today!
I gambled on the government losing and the tariff reverting back to 43.3p though still accept that an investment at 21p is better than anything else on the market at the moment.
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A company gave me two prices 7k for 2.5kw system at 21p but if rate was 43p it would be 9.2k, I was told all down to supply and demand of panel pushing up prices. I said sounded more like you think I'll make more so will be happy if you take a bigger cut? .......Silence.

Anyway told the company I had cheaper quotes from companies guaranteeing quote for 30 days.
 
michaelwr said:
A company gave me two prices 7k for 2.5kw system at 21p but if rate was 43p it would be 9.2k, I was told all down to supply and demand of panel pushing up prices. I said sounded more like you think I'll make more so will be happy if you take a bigger cut? .......Silence.

Anyway told the company I had cheaper quotes from companies guaranteeing quote for 30 days.
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I'd have done the same. Cheeky ****ers!
OOI my quote was £9.5K for 4kW. Not sure where that stands on value at 21p (still a good return though) but it's excellent value should I manage to obtain 43.3p at some point.
 
I'm getting a bit of a complex - my phone isn't ringing of it's hook. Just as well cos I've lost my voice but nothing more than normal in the way of calls today :-(
 
PAGE Renewable said:
Responsible installers should only be quoting you the 21p price, and responsible suppliers should be holding their price on kit - as mine are. It's the stock levels that will be rapidly depleted by chancers trying to speculate. You could still get a 4kWp system sub £10k if you act fast (memories of November spring to mind) if you are happy with the 21p rate - but please contact your preferred supplier immediately to avoid the 1st April uncertainty that we are yet to face!​
Click to expand...
Yes the smaller companies have included a table with both 21p and 43p, BUT, there quote was before today's antics. The "big" electric company just did 21p, their figures looked bad (compared to other 21p calcs) but I think they have a more accurate measurement of direction as roof is SE but more ESE than SSE which skews year KHW and hence payback timescale. 4KWp systems I am asking for quotes on are coming in around 10K but that's with Chinese panels, more like £12K with Sanyo HIT, both with decent invertors like SMA (well I think SMA is decent, see plenty of posts about them being quality gear on here - which is why I joined to read up). To add to all this you have to wonder which suppliers will be around in a year if you need a guarantee repair, and then which panel providers you can track down in 10 years if peak output is below 90% or over the rest of the 25 years. This pushes you towards Sanyo etc but then you get into panel availability problems etc. No one has mentioned short supply yet, see how the rest of the week pans out!
 
It seems to me that the government and DECC are trying to win by attrition. People are already saying that they're happy with 21p and want to carry on with that.

To be honest, I'd love to see how they make it look attractive to customers.

I can't run a business doing 20 surveys a week and selling one system a month.
 
on the REAL website it say's "The Court of Appeal's ruling means the FIT rate for <4kW systems installed and registered ahead of the new 3 March cut-off point is 43.3p. Consumers who register on or after 3 March will qualify for the current higher rate until 1 April, it will then drop to 21p for the remainder of the 25 years"

I'm sure they mean from 12 December to 3rd March .....?what a complete F8888up ! Heads need to role
 
"We have no current plans to close the scheme but cannot rule out any option at this stage. "

I have forever loathed the Tories and I cannot wait to get these slimy cretins out of government. How dare they add this threat into their feeble explanation for acting unlawfully.

Greenest government ever?

Another letter to my Lib Dem MP this afternoon is in order.
 
Here is how I see it, for what it is worth.
Greg Barking's legal argument according to the link (thanks SRE) seems to be that the current rate is unsustainable, well this may be the case, however the judgement's were the way in which the government made the changes was/is unlawful.
It is not the decision of any judge in the land to decide if there is enough "money in the pot" it is only for them to decide if the way the changes were made were lawful, and clearly they were not.

Also they play with figures, saying how much electricity bills will rise, so it's not government funded then is it?
If it were government funded it would not affect any bills at all.
 
Absolutely agree. I can't carry out an unlawful act simply because my money is running out.

I'd either make sure I didn't end up in that mess in the first place OR would find the money from elsewhere.
 
[h=3]will anything interesting be said? ...[/h]
Today, 10:30 on BBC Parliament


[h=2]Synopsis[/h] Live coverage of questions in the House of Commons to Energy and Climate Change secretary Chris Huhne and his ministerial team.
 
Oh, that document makes interesting reading:

"This means that as the law currently stands, we cannot legislate to apply new tariffs, from 1 April 2012, to installations which became eligible for FITs on or after 12 December 2011."

If that sentence doesn't make it entirely clear that any such legislation would be retrospective, then the following later in the document makes it very clear:

"If our appeal were successful, we could legislate in future to apply new tariffs to installations that became eligible for FITs from a December 2011 reference date."

This following is more worrying:

"Nor does it preclude us from taking forward other proposals from the FITs consultation (e.g. new energy efficiency requirement)."

Now whilst I agree that FOE et al shouldn't back down over the court case as it sets a bad precedence for retrospective action during a consultation which shouldn't be allowed by any government department , I am beginning to worry that it is becoming a distraction from the for more important issue of the EPC rating. The proposed EPC C requirement may be far more damaging to the industry than the question of whether the reduced FIT should apply from 12/12 or 3/3
 
Anyone else notice that the BPVA supported the Government in Court? Be aware this is not a true association but a business owned by an individual. They seem to provide marketing services. As a member you could not vote this individual off or have a say in opinions put out on your behalf. They also scuppered a challenge in the House of Lords last year by giving ill informed and ill conceived information to a Peer. Not a supporter of Our Solar Future either.

All the real work is done by The Solar Trade Association. This is policy, technical standards, lobbying and much much more. All the big hitters belong, and work for the benefit of the industry.

Huhne has just praised these weasles in Parliament. That says it all. They are traitors. If you are a member, resign now.
 
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TallPaul said:
The "big" electric company just did 21p, their figures looked bad (compared to other 21p calcs) but I think they have a more accurate measurement of direction as roof is SE but more ESE than SSE which skews year KHW and hence payback timescale.
Click to expand...

In the calculations which companies use to provide an indication of returns, some make higher (or lower) assumptions for loss of panel output over the years, some take into account a replacement inverter (or two) and also they use different rates of inflation for electricity prices and general inflation (to which the FiT) is linked.

Therefore if you can't strip-out the influence of all the variables, it may be better just to look at the quality, price and peak output potential of each company's offering.
 
FB. said:
Therefore if you can't strip-out the influence of all the variables, it may be better just to look at the quality, price and peak output potential of each company's offering.
Click to expand...

I think that's good advice thanks, I had pretty much decided to just compare the quotes with Sanyo panels and SMA inverters and hope for the best with the results!

Anyone explain why a big name company would spec a SMA SB3300 for a 4KWp system though? Roof is SE or ESE so maybe they expect the panels never to produce full output?
 
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