Latest on the court challenge!!!

Discuss Latest on the court challenge!!! in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

TallPaul said:
Anyone explain why a big name company would spec a SMA SB3300 for a 4KWp system though? Roof is SE or ESE so maybe they expect the panels never to produce full output?
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SMA themselves may advise this inverter if you have no shading issues etc, if you use SMA software then it would suggest an SB3300 for 16 panels, this could depend on where you live etc, just because it has 3300 in the name, it is a 3600w inverter.

I have just run the figures through for my region, and put in the details of temperatures etc for my region of England and the suggested inverter by SMA is the SB3300. Not too sure where you live, and im sure there is many an argument for other inverters, but your supplier/quoter maybe following the guidelines of the manufacturer.
 
The Solar King said:
Anyone else notice that the BPVA supported the Government in Court? Be aware this is not a true association but a business owned by an individual. They seem to provide marketing services. As a member you could not vote this individual off or have a say in opinions put out on your behalf. They also scuppered a challenge in the House of Lords last year by giving ill informed and ill conceived information to a Peer. Not a supporter of Our Solar Future either.

All the real work is done by The Solar Trade Association. This is policy, technical standards, lobbying and much much more. All the big hitters belong, and work for the benefit of the industry.

Huhne has just praised these weasles in Parliament. That says it all. They are traitors. If you are a member, resign now.
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Absolutely. BPVA do not speak for my company and they never have. I don't see what they offer the industry anyhow.

I would welcome a visit from them so they can take a look at my order book and explain to me exactly what I'm doing wrong.
 
TallPaul said:
I think that's good advice thanks, I had pretty much decided to just compare the quotes with Sanyo panels and SMA inverters and hope for the best with the results!

Anyone explain why a big name company would spec a SMA SB3300 for a 4KWp system though? Roof is SE or ESE so maybe they expect the panels never to produce full output?
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Please keep to topic. If you start a new thread, I'm sure your questions will be answered.
 
well it looks certain that its going to drag itself out for a long time, so there is not much point in selling at anything other than 21p

If people get the 43p then they will have to wait and see it as a bonus, but it wont be anytime soon will it.
 
I can't believe the panic buying, where are all the customers coming from? Hardly any stock at 2 of my regular suppliers ....
 
Been as flat as a witches --- for 6 weeks and today, bang, off we go again.
I feel this whole thing will cost the Government ££££'s, I did not think there would be a rush again, but me thinks different now, well up to March the 3rd anyway..
 
Likewise. Just priced a system at bare bones and the payback is still at 14 years on SAP. I can't imagine he'll falling over himself to pick up the phone and sign contracts.

This is one of the "two for the price of one" customers that Greg Barker has been chirping on about.
 
earthstore said:
been as flat as a witches --- for 6 weeks and today, bang, off we go again.
I feel this whole thing will cost the government ££££'s, i did not think there would be a rush again, but me thinks different now, well up to march the 3rd anyway..
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uve been going out with the wrong witches :)
 
BiggsSolar said:
SolarCentury have resigned from the BPVA.

Does anyone have any idea exactly why the BPVA supported the DECC? Have they made any statement about this?
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Something to do with background of chairman I think. Here is some biog:

Reza Shaybani is a Serial entrepreneur with 20 years of experience in managing technology-focused companies in the optical disc manufacturing equipment and semiconductor industries in Europe and Middle East. For the past 5 years Reza has been involved in the solar PV industry as the Managing Director of Scheuten Solar Middle East and Solar Technology Centre in the UAE, founder of Solarjobs.com a global job board in the solar industry, Managing Director of System Photonics and Director of The Electric Roof Company in the UK.
In 2010, Reza and a group of companies with interest in the UK solar PV market (the founding members) formed the British Photovoltaic Association.

Obviously wrote this himself. Don't look at his facebook page, you will puke.

Without being racist, what does this person know about UK politics?
 
The Solar King said:
Something to do with background of chairman I think. Here is some biog:

Reza Shaybani is a Serial entrepreneur with 20 years of experience in managing technology-focused companies in the optical disc manufacturing equipment and semiconductor industries in Europe and Middle East. For the past 5 years Reza has been involved in the solar PV industry as the Managing Director of Scheuten Solar Middle East and Solar Technology Centre in the UAE, founder of Solarjobs.com a global job board in the solar industry, Managing Director of System Photonics and Director of The Electric Roof Company in the UK.
In 2010, Reza and a group of companies with interest in the UK solar PV market (the founding members) formed the British Photovoltaic Association.

Obviously wrote this himself. Don't look at his facebook page, you will puke.

Without being racist, what does this person know about UK politics?
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Didn't we see something from this electric roof company early last wanting sub contractors to work for peanuts around St Albans.
When I saw that I thought the blokes a ***t now I know he his.
 
BiggsSolar said:
SolarCentury have resigned from the BPVA.

Does anyone have any idea exactly why the BPVA supported the DECC? Have they made any statement about this?
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I'm a member so get their emails, and attended a BPVA organised meeting with DECC and around 50 BPVA members from across the industry in November, so probably have a reasonable handle on their position.

Basically as I understand it, BPVA after consulting with members (to some extent) worked out what most on here have been saying, which is that the 21p rate is actually ok, and also that the FIT budget is already massively overspent, so the most productive long term position is to work out a compromise position with decc, to not antagonise them further with court action, and to look to the bigger long term picture.

SO, instead of ****ing about with court challenges that have merely exacerbated the problem through increased delays and uncertainties, and might result in customer who've bought at 21p anyway being further rewarded with 43.3p that they didn't need, they opted to draw a line under that side of things and look to the main danger from the consultation which is the proposed band C for EPC's.

I believe BPVA have been lobbying heavily for either no energy efficiency rating or the Green Deal version which is far less stringent, this was certainly the message that DECC would have taken from the meeting I was at where the support for this position was pretty much unanimous.

I understand they are also now in discussions with DECC about the future shape of the FIT scheme, to negotiate further cuts on a more regular time table. The last email I had on that indicated further cuts in April and July are being proposed, probably with 6 monthly cuts after that.

I'm not really sure what cuts they could actually bring in in April, probably only the original planned 8% cut that I think would still be allowed under the original FIT legislation, and I think maybe they'll leave it to give time for all the already proposed changes to take effect and focus on a cut in July instead, but this is just guesswork.

So, basically the reason BPVA took the stance they did is to try to forge a long term partnership with DECC to try to influence deccs decision making behind the scenes before they actually announce their decisions via a consultation. Personally I think they've played this far far better than STA who've gone for the full frontal attack option, and focussed on the aspect of the situation that's ok legally the most troubling, but is also ignores entirely the most troubling long terms issues for the industry (EPCs and the FIT budget itself).

I'd have liked more consultation from BPVA about their position in advance, and they're far from perfect, but I have to admit that their strategy probably has been largely correct, and STA's has been largely counterproductive in the long run.
 
I have to strongly disagree.

The STA's response wasn't a full frontal attack - it was a defence. And it was a defence that the DECC were warned about well in advance. To point out the legal issues with the DECC changes was the only response we could have. Are you honestly suggesting that the government should be able to wreck our industry and that we should be worried about upsetting them in case they don't listen to us in the future? This shouldn't distract from the EPC and the FITs budget issue - they should run in line with it.

I am strongly of the opinion that 21p is FAR too low to keep a satisfactory growth in the PV market and I also believe that Huhne and Co. know this fully well. Barker has begun to show his cards - he is now openly criticising the FIT scheme and is actually threatening to cut the whole scheme. All this from the greenest government ever?

I don't like politicians and I never will. And I will never tolerate being lied to by multi-millionaire plastic faced elfine rats like Barker and his mates. If they came to power announcing that they would decimate the solar industry and then proceeded to act like they did then I could have little quarrel with them - instead they moan about Milliband and blame it all on him - as if a massive uptake in green energy is suddenly a bad thing.

It is not a case of messing about with court challenges - We expect our government to act in a way in which such an action isn't necessary. We certainly don't expect them to prolong the misery by lodging appeal after appeal. And we certainly want them to know that we won't lie down when they kick us just because they can't do their own jobs properly. Frankly, if it took another 18 months to get things sorted then I'd still be up for the fight.

It bothers me when people worry about 'antagonising' the DECC. They are public servants - not our masters. If they fail to act in a way in which I would expect then I will bloody well tell them so.

My support is with the STA. The thought of Reza Shaybani proudly waving his 'C' rating victory paper around like a modern day Chamberlain utterly sickens me. I hope that a few of 'his' members feel the same way and let him know.

The DECC didn't ask for my opinion nor anyone elses on this forum when they decided to wreck the FIT with just 6 weeks notice.
 
Sorry I cannot agree with this. You completely miss the point of why the court case is so important. Without certainty that there can be no retrospective action there can be no certainty over future investment in the industry. Unless it is firmly established that DECC acted unlawfully we are for ever at the mercy of arbitary decisions to the detriment of all.


If you even began to understand the work the STA have been undertaking in the background to protect and promote the industry for far longer than the BPVA have been in existence you would take a different view. Do you really want to belong to a so called organisation that is negotiating ongoing cuts rather than one working to create a long term sustainable future for the industry?

There are still major policy issues to be resolved: It is still unclear that FITs should even be considered part of Public Spending, especially in light of the European Court ruling that the German FITs are not.

We have to work with DECC but not on the basis of appeasement. Do not under-estimate who your enemies are and the influence they hold. The long term relationship you describe sounds like brown nosing and will get you nowhere. Right now I do not have the time to explain the systemic problems within DECC and their causes. Needless to say those who chose the strategy did so from years of experience and very sound advice.

Had it not been for the hard hard work and sacrifice of those in the STA and Our Solar Future, going back many months, we would all be on 9p.
 
DECC figures 45.jpg
This graph tells you all you need to know about DECC, Huhne and Barker.

The arrogance of politicians is truly staggering. Did you watch Barker being interviewed on television and blaming this fiasco on Milliband? A full 20 months after taking the coalition took power?

They are incompetent liars and I certainly won't sit back and clap along like a demented seal in the hope that they don't do anything even more stupid and implement the 'C' rating.
 
It is shocking to think that any sensible person supports the way the DECC have handled this situtation.

BPVA and their leader seem to be cosying up to Gregory, why? They obvoiusly see a profit in it for them.
 
May I chip in?
No one in the Industry keeps taking the Government to court, that only happened once and they lost, they took themselves back to appeal, even though the Judge advised against it, and they lost again, and were given a "right telling off" and again were not given right to appeal, so now that's 4 judges informing the government that they are wrong.
So what were Barking and plumes words.... We disagree with all of you and are going to the supreme court.
So sorry, the Government are to blame now not the Industry.
It takes a man to admit that he is wrong, a boy will just blame somebody else.
 
Another anecdotal - after yesterday's flurry of calls, today nothing, and the customer I went to see today after he phoned yesterday's first words were "It's still up in the air then...", and our suppliers expected "rush" did not materialise. Make of it what you will....
 
BiggsSolar said:
View attachment 10233
This graph tells you all you need to know about DECC, Huhne and Barker.

The arrogance of politicians is truly staggering. Did you watch Barker being interviewed on television and blaming this fiasco on Milliband? A full 20 months after taking the coalition took power?

They are incompetent liars and I certainly won't sit back and clap along like a demented seal in the hope that they don't do anything even more stupid and implement the 'C' rating.
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....and that graph could just as well be the stress levels suffered by PV installers in 2011, or if inverted the consumer confidence levels instilled by the current policies.
 
I've just lost a job we were 99% sure of getting because I had to ring them and tell them some muppets were buying up all the panels and they felt they needed to make a quick decision (they need small salt mist tested panels ie Sanyo). That quick decision was unless there was some certainty in the industry they weren't going ahead.

I don't know if I'm more annoyed with peeps buying everything up and selling at 43p or the sodding government for yet more uncertainty. I'd just begun to feel like we were settling down a bit :furious3:
 
Not the only problem with 'the muppets buying all the panels'.

Wholesale prices will go up- you make no money on your installs.

I'm telling all my customers I cannot guarantee the panel until they are ready to proceed.

I then ring them and make the order online (SEGEN) and confirm it.
 
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The Solar King said:
Something to do with background of chairman I think. Here is some biog:

Reza Shaybani is a Serial entrepreneur with 20 years of experience in managing technology-focused companies in the optical disc manufacturing equipment and semiconductor industries in Europe and Middle East. For the past 5 years Reza has been involved in the solar PV industry as the Managing Director of Scheuten Solar Middle East and Solar Technology Centre in the UAE, founder of Solarjobs.com a global job board in the solar industry, Managing Director of System Photonics and Director of The Electric Roof Company in the UK.
In 2010, Reza and a group of companies with interest in the UK solar PV market (the founding members) formed the British Photovoltaic Association.

Obviously wrote this himself. Don't look at his facebook page, you will puke.

Without being racist, what does this person know about UK politics?
Click to expand...


Whoops. Just looked at his Facebook page :p

He likes Guns, Cars and loose women
 
i cant believe all the kits gone? i think they didnt have much kit anyway ! a few people bought up stuff on first anouncement but clients wont be happy when they read the truth ! whats the odds on it staying at 43.3p who is a bookmaker out there! suppliers want rid of kit so silly emails STOCK going fast seems to work! all i no is i dont want garage full of kit !!
 
I got emailed a copy of a guide DECC seem to have released to their views on the Feed In Tariff debacle / court cases.


It's a bit odd, some of it seems half finished, and it seems to have a section in there about their damage limitation strategy that I'm fairly sure they didn't mean to still be in it.


I've stuck it online in 2 parts as it's a bit long.


DECC Feed In Tariff court action briefing part 1
DECC Feed In Tariff court action briefing part 2

apologies if someone's already posted this up.
 
From part 2:

"There are a number of reasons for our decision to pursue a further appeal. Key is the fact that the current tariffs for solar PV are not sustainable. We estimate that the additional cost to consumers of the current high tariffs continuing to be available until 2 March (for the next 25 years) would be around £1.5bn (real, discounted)."

That is no basis on which to appeal against the current finding. The appeal can only be on grounds of a mis-interpretation of the law - not running out of money.

Also the answer in Q&A to "Haven’t you already overspent the budget?" is a total non-answer. The data referred to (in answer 4 to the select committee) is only based on data to 27th November 2011, which completely ignores the remaining installs up to the 12th December deadline - a further 55,000 systems. And it also allows for zero more installs in the subsequent years. The budget is blown.
 
Player

If you can watch this for 10 minutes without pushing your thumb through your eyeballs in frustration then you're doing well.

Chris Huhne's answer to every question is "This flawed scheme blah blah blah that the leader of the opposition blah blah blah saving the consumer blah blah blah."

This video is just the kind of reason why I utterly totally politicians. The way they avoid answering questions is diabolical and they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

I'm sick of government after government blaming problems on the 'previous government' as if that gives them carte blanche to do whatever they bloody well want.
 
We know Reza Shaybani from way back when he was involved in other industry sectors that Sibert has history with......all I can say is that I am not surprised with the recent turn of events regarding BPVA and DECC etc.....
 
Somecamel said:
Whoops. Just looked at his Facebook page :p

He likes Guns, Cars and loose women
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Rezza previously promised my previous employers pallets of modules that they paid for and never delivered them! He is a very shifty character and I am not supprised he sided with DECC
 
The statement isn't exactly clear.

Are the BPVA backing the DECC and their illegal actions because they're worried about the FITs budget running out?

If we're going to get consequentialist about this, would it not be a better stance to ask for a larger FITs budget? Assuming that we all see that actually cutting carbon emmissions is the ultimate goal?

30p is a realistic FITs rate. 21p is not.
 
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