My first difficult client!

[HappyHippyDad]

3 weeks ago I did the first fix on a refurbishment of kitchen. I have only just had a phone call to come and do the second fix.

The customer is unhappy as the builder has said he cannot use the cable I had in position for the downlights? He has gone ahead and put the ceiling up and just left all the cable that I had neatly dangling up in the void which is now not reachable without lifting floorboards.

He had said that he would position all the downlight holes and just pull the cable through, but the customer has said that he said the cable was not in the right position and would leave a big gap in the middle of the kitchen.

I specifically left plenty of cable (about 1.5m) dangling from the ceiling at each point so he could choose where he positioned the downlights and I spaced them out fairly evenly (as much as you can when just hanging from joists waiting for the ceiling to go up). So apart from the fact that it doesn't make sense, it would have been a good idea to call me before putting the ceiling up and hiding all my cable?

I cant get hold of the builder!

I know I'm pretty new to this game but I cant see I've done anything wrong and I have not had an unsatisfied customer before.. Have I done anything wrong here?

 

[Plonker 3]

Did you, liase with the customer or builder into regards of the positioning of the down lights or ask to be told when the ceiling would be boarded?

 

[Octopus]

Hum... never let a builder take responsibility for drilling the holes!

Why does the builder not think the cable was suitable - what was the cable and what type of lights were you fitting?

 

[flowlec1]

You should make a plan then drill the holes yourself

 

[trev]

In a situation like this I always mark the walls with the position of the joists, That way you know where they are and roughly where your cables will be.
That said, the builder has no knowledge of how you selected your cables so it is easy to baffle him with calcs. Most of them are clueless when it comes to electricity mate

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Did you, liase with the customer or builder into regards of the positioning of the down lights or ask to be told when the ceiling would be boarded?

Positioning of downlights was just a straight forward 2 rows of 4, so yes to first part of your question. As for asking when the ceiling would be boarded, 'No'.. The builder has 20 years experience, I think he could have used a bit of initiative and called me before boarding up the cable, that doesn't seem very sensible. What do you think Dillb?

Hum... never let a builder take responsibility for drilling the holes!

Why does the builder not think the cable was suitable - what was the cable and what type of lights were you fitting?

Sorry Murdoch, I should have been more clear. The builder is not happy with the positioning of the cable. The client specifically wanted the builder doing as much as possible as he was a neighbour giving them a good rate so he was to position and drill holes. But it makes no sense as there was a huge amount of dangling cable to play with, with regards positioning?


The cable was (x2) T&E at each hole which would have been put into a wago and then Heat resis flex to light.

 

[Megavolt]

Allways do a plan to show you joist positions and cable positions.

Sounds like your gonna learn the hard way that most builders are tools.

 

[Plonker 3]

I think he could have used a bit of initiative and called me before boarding up the cable, that doesn't seem very sensible. What do you think Dillb?

2 things, firstly don't expect a builder to have any initiative.

Secondly if you haven't asked to be there how would he know you want to be there?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

In a situation like this I always mark the walls with the position of the joists, That way you know where they are and roughly where your cables will be.
That said, the builder has no knowledge of how you selected your cables so it is easy to baffle him with calcs. Most of them are clueless when it comes to electricity mate

Allways do a plan to show you joist positions and cable positions.

Sounds like your gonna learn the hard way that most builders are tools.

I definitely would have done, but the builder and client made it very clear that the builder was going to drill holes and pull cable through, thats what they wanted. They also wanted him to do the second fix, but i said I wont sign it off unless I do the second fix!

I'm not enjoying this particular job! :-(

 

[trev]

So if it's down to the clown and there's lots of length on the cables what the hell is his problem?
1.5 metres is plenty of slack

 

[Wiresandthings]

As most of the comments above, you can never trust a builder to do anything, even if you explain it 10 times they will c*** it up!!

Learn the hard way on this one, but make a plan of joists and positions of cables in future. If possible cut holes before skim coat and its happy days! Plasterers hate it mind!!

Ive learnt the hard way recently when i lost my plan for a kitchen with about 15 downlights!!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

2 things, firstly don't expect a builder to have any initiative.

Thats a fair point Dillb.

Secondly if you haven't asked to be there how would he know you want to be there?

He's changed the rules, he's made the decision NOT to pull the cable through which was agreed so I need to be informed of that at that time as it impacts on the remainder of my job. I cant tell that he's going to change the rules.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

So if it's down to the clown and there's lots of length on the cables what the hell is his problem?
1.5 metres is plenty of slack

Thats what I just cant get my head around (smiley things arn't working ... damn!)

As most of the comments above, you can never trust a builder to do anything, even if you explain it 10 times they will c*** it up!!

Learn the hard way on this one, but make a plan of joists and positions of cables in future. If possible cut holes before skim coat and its happy days! Plasterers hate it mind!!

Ive learnt the hard way recently when i lost my plan for a kitchen with about 15 downlights!!

Yep.. Like Dillb said... I should not have expected initiative. I've only worked with 2 other builders and they were both great! Kind of thought thats the norm!!

 

[Octopus]

Has the ceiling been plastered?

EDit: Positioning rule of thumb -

700-800mm from walls

and

no more than 1200mm apart

 

[shanky887614]

As most of the comments above, you can never trust a builder to do anything, even if you explain it 10 times they will c*** it up!!

Learn the hard way on this one, but make a plan of joists and positions of cables in future. If possible cut holes before skim coat and its happy days! Plasterers hate it mind!!

Ive learnt the hard way recently when i lost my plan for a kitchen with about 15 downlights!!

depends on the builder, ive worked with one before where he is better than a lot of house bashers I have met, doesnt have a clue about regs but will call you to get you down before boarding etc if needs must.

nothing wrong with one lending a hand if it is something foolproof like stripping cables ready for connecting etc

 

[Marvo]

Just tell him you'll make the holes and find the cable at your normal hourly rate. It wasn't part of your original scope of works so it's an extra.

Just for future it's imperative the everything that's agreed or requested by the client, no matter how small and inconsequential it may seem at the time, is in writing. If necessary email him that evening stating every decision he's made during your meeting with a request for clarification within 24 hrs if there's something he disagrees with. Unfortunately verbal instructions and agreements don't cut the mustard, if there's ever any comeback or disagreements later on.

 

[uksparks]

If someone says fit down lights, unless I do the job from start to finish and drill holes, I walk away, none of this, you will do this and they will do that bull. I'd tell them to sling their hook.

 

[uksparks]

Has the ceiling been plastered?

EDit: Positioning rule of thumb -

700-800mm from walls

and

no more than 1200mm apart

Depends on the size of the room does it not...

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Has the ceiling been plastered?

EDit: Positioning rule of thumb -

700-800mm from walls

and

no more than 1200mm apart

I dont know if ceiling has been plastered. I went in 700mm from wall.

The client is really quite difficult Murdoch. I made it clear it was £360 labour and what ever materials cost, they now want the job at £360 inc materials as they say I did not mention this. The couple are both really stressed with each other, their dogs just been put down as it bit the neighbour (huge continuously barking alsation) and the boss (the lady) is just chaotic!!

 

[Octopus]

Depends on the size of the room does it not...

Er no...unless you have a taller room them the spaces can be bigger

 

[Octopus]

I dont know if ceiling has been plastered. I went in 700mm from wall.

The client is really quite difficult Murdoch. I made it clear it was £360 labour and what ever materials cost, they now want the job at £360 inc materials as they say I did not mention this. The couple are both really stressed with each other, their dogs just been put down as it bit the neighbour (huge continuously barking alsation) and the boss (the lady) is just chaotic!!

If its not been plastered at least you'll be able to see exactky where the joists are by the builders screws!

I make a point of dropping in on the client/builder in such situations during the project to ensure things don't go horibly wrong!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Just tell him you'll make the holes and find the cable at your normal hourly rate. It wasn't part of your original scope of works so it's an extra.

Just for future it's imperative the everything that's agreed or requested by the client, no matter how small and inconsequential it may seem at the time, is in writing. If necessary email him that evening stating every decision he's made during your meeting with a request for clarification within 24 hrs if there's something he disagrees with. Unfortunately verbal instructions and agreements don't cut the mustard, if there's ever any comeback or disagreements later on.

I think thats very sound advice Marvo and I have learnt my lesson on this point.

 

[tazz]

No matter how big or small the job...drawings weather hand drawn or cadded, are important so all can work together....now back to you, as this is your job to fit the lights.....suggest markup and drill the holes then rod out the cables, and get the job finished. Sorry to be blunt, but trusting others without planning, will always result in this situation.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

If its not been plastered at least you'll be able to see exactky where the joists are by the builders screws!

I make a point of dropping in on the client/builder in such situations during the project to ensure things don't go horibly wrong!

That is also good advice Murdoch, thanks.

I make a point of thinking 'How is this going to affect the builder/plumber/plasterer' and expected the same!! I realise that was a bit naive.

 

[Rockingit]

Another golden rule here is photo's. You can never take too many of a job from start to finish at every stage - just in case (like this). I'm going through small claims at the moment with an arse of a client from over a year ago that's £2k down on the deal, claims he never asked for anything other than the original scope. I've got picture after picture of every single extra, modification etc.

 

[uksparks]

Er no...unless you have a taller room them the spaces can be bigger

Bathroom, lights 450mm from edge

 

[Octopus]

Bathroom, lights 450mm from edge

Or centred on the bath/shower!

Small rooms like bathrooms and ensuites are totally different to living rooms, dining rooms and kitchens as joists often "dictate" where lights have to go

 

[edexlab]

You mentioned the builder was a neighbour?

and in a later post the dog bit a neighbour ?

just wondered if it was the same person! lol

 

[uksparks]

Or centred on the bath/shower!

Small rooms like bathrooms and ensuites are totally different to living rooms, dining rooms and kitchens as joists often "dictate" where lights have to go

I just put them where the customer wants them, so long as its possible.

 

[Slowhand]

Sounds like they want you to walk away from it so they can do the second fix like you mentioned earlier.
They know where the cables are and dropping the price on you is just being awkward.

People bang on about cowboy builders and they have progs on the tv about them but you never hear about cowboy customers do you?

 

[Richard Burns]

You have been left in an unfortunate position, but unfortunately one that comes up far too frequently.
When customers are doing the planning things can go badly wrong.
Builders do tend to go ahead and deal with any difficulties as they see fit. Communication is not a strong point.
If you are to cut the holes then explain that this is an extra time requirement and will cost x amount more.
You should really give a written quote / estimate so that you do not get "oh I did not realise x was not part of the cost you quoted"
Remember to try and stay calm and explain clearly, and in writing if necessary, at all times (once you can do this tell me how!)

You should be able to reach your cables as you have left plenty there, unless he has cut them short to make it easier to get the ceiling up!.
Then using a metal / stud detector for finding the plasterboard nails or just tapping for hollow spaces and dead joists should allow you to plan where the fittings should go. Then you can start (gently cutting the first hole, just the drill into the plasterboard as short as possible to avoid catching unknown cables and once the hole is started just use the cutter, cut out the last paper with a knife, unless you can see the hole is clear through the drill hole.
Once you have a hole cut check it is where you expected (ulp) and if so then you can cut the other holes in relation and fish out cables with a wire coat hanger or if you are posh with a cable rod with a hook. If the cable is not visible or reachable by hand (if you do not have ham hands like me) then a flexi camera can look for them to aim the coat hanger, or a small mirror on a rod for the cheaper option.

Good luck and stick with it, bad news travels fastest, if you can remain professional then you should get a good response after the job, with any luck.

I had one very bad job that was driving me crazy and I thought I was burning boats at a fantastic rate and later they recommenced me to some one else!
You can never tell.
Sympathise but do not empathise.

 

[telectrix]

have you been paid for the 1st fix? if so and he won't accept the extra cost to find the cables, walk away. bear in mind that the ceiling couls be stuffed full of insulation and the cables may be impossible to find.

 

[palmerelectrcal]

You have my sympathy...some builders only have one thing in mind ..do their bit get paid and sod everyone else..probably bragging in their pub after 16 pints "how they screwed the sparky" on their latest job.i had a kitchen ceiling with 16 d/lighters...and knowing how women can change their mind,
ran cable back and forth along each joist...clipping very lightly just enough to keep out of the way of the board fixers.made a plan on the joist layout. 2 months later the customer changed all the original lighting positions.. but it wasn't a major problem locating the feeds.

 

[Octopus]

A large percentage of builders want to do our job and don't give a fxck if the lights are right next to the joists or directly under existing cables.

As others have said be sympathetic and "help" the customer if they are reasonable - yes it may cost you an hour or two but another very happy customer is worth its weight in gold!

 

[percysybil]

perhaps cut your losses and walk away?

 

[Dipzy]

Hi HHD, you can download the Bosch measurement camera app (which has been discussed here before). It's really good cos you can take a photo and then edit it with measurement's of joists, cable runs etc. Put all photos/ notes in a folder for that job. Then when you return for second fix you shouldn't have to do too much hunting. :willy_nilly:
Doesn't help with your current situation but I'm sure you'll heed all the good advice, given, as everyday is a learning day.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Well!!! I have spoken to the builder at last and he seems like a thoroughly decent bloke.

The customer is basically trying it on. She told the builder she had changed her mind about the downlights and didn't want them and would try to knock the price down with the electrician by saying they were not spaced correctly (the only grain of truth was that the builder had said 2 of the cables may have to be brought through to the other side of the joist they were hanging on to get all the lights symetrical - a 2 minute job).

Unbelievable.... although I'm sure you guys have come across this type of thing before.

Luckily its just the husband there on friday and he seems ok(ish), so I should get paid!!

The builder said he has had a nightmare with her as well and will be saying he is far too busy when asked for any future jobs!!

You have to be multi-talented as an electrician dont you..

debt collector, counsellor, diplomat!!!

 

[Guest111]

Well!!! I have spoken to the builder at last and he seems like a thoroughly decent bloke.

The customer is basically trying it on. She told the builder she had changed her mind about the downlights and didn't want them and would try to knock the price down with the electrician by saying they were not spaced correctly (the only grain of truth was that the builder had said 2 of the cables may have to be brought through to the other side of the joist they were hanging on to get all the lights symetrical - a 2 minute job).

Unbelievable.... although I'm sure you guys have come across this type of thing before.

Luckily its just the husband there on friday and he seems ok(ish), so I should get paid!!

The builder said he has had a nightmare with her as well and will be saying he is far too busy when asked for any future jobs!!

You have to be multi-talented as an electrician dont you..

debt collector, counsellor, diplomat!!!

don't forget mind reader and knowing when to walk away.lol

 

[HappyHippyDad]

don't forget mind reader and knowing when to walk away.lol

I'd quite like to walk away from this one Phil, but that really would leave them in a whole heap of trouble trying to get it signed off. I shall be as quick as I can, collect paymet, give the MWC's and scarper, never to return!!

 

[camerabloke]

Get paid before handing Certs over HHD

 

[R G]

Never trust a client who leaves it to you to decide on positioning of lights , I always go through with them on the positioning , also its always down to you to drill holes in ceilings, as any holes made by others is usually of the wrong size and position , and always draw a plan before the ceiling goes up with all joist shown and positioning of the light fittings , and one last thing never trust a client, they always change their mind , you will usually find the more you're willing to go ahead with the changes the more they try it on ,

The experiences I have had with builders is crap to say the least , I f you have come in through the customer , and a builders on site , they usually try any trick in the book to P-SS you off , they have there own sparks in mind and think your taking cash out of their pockets ,,,

 

[Dipzy]

Couldn't agree more with above post by Ray.

 

[7029 dave]

As said don't give the certs till money is in your hands, oh and pass them by next time, don't need punters like that.!!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Just another update and a bit more advice needed..

The lady is continually changing her mind now, stating she would supply sockets, now asking me to.. agreeing to a price (its only 5 sockets!!) and now saying does this include the back box (which I had already stated was extra) etc etc etc.

I have just sent a very clear e-mail detailing what the remainder of the cost will be and await a reply.

Quite frankly I am annoyed (yet remaining professional and polite!! ggrrr) and dont want to continue with the job as she has deliberately tried to con me with regards the downlights. What are the legal implications of just walking away from a job after the first fix? Everything has been left completely safe. I dont expect this will happen but the odds are raising!!

 

[R G]

I had em all the time working for a DNO , and it was harder to deal with not just a customer but the company as well , that always looked upon it as your fault and customers always right , in your position lay it down clearly what was quoted and if you have a proper quotation all written out then great , if not or its not comprehensive enough then I would get it done ASAP and discuss all thats on it with the woman , and get it with a stage payment with works completed to date and get her to pay for it , its not easy I know but I sympathise with you , it seems there are people out there set to try it on before work even starts mate .

 

[Guest111]

A company I worked for years back had a similar issue,the woman was quoted for 15 sockets downstairs,trouble was she kept changing their locations,always after the first fix,in the end the sockets had been fitted and relocated that many times it was down as something like 60 on the first fix bill,she went mental apparently she thought that each time she changed her mind we should alter it for nothing.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Thanks Ray.
I have just had a reply to my extensive, precise, polite e.mail (which I should have done at the beginning), saying:

"Yeah that's fine"

Hope that's the end of it!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Being in business would be a joy if it weren't for three things:

1. Customers.

2. Suppliers.

4. HM Revenue & Customs.

 

[R G]

Some customers are out to get you and if theres any hint of you being new to the game or the slightest reason for them to cause problems then they will , what we must do is have a full and comprehensive quotation with a customers signature at the bottom if accepted and conditions all set out on the rear , and stating on the front any alterations may be subject to additional cost and must be advised before start of works to avoid further costs ..
I had it all in the past many years ago , and I am looking for this sort of thing ...

You know what they say , This job would be all right if it weren't for the customers..LOL..

 

[telectrix]

Being in business would be a joy if it weren't for three things:

1. Customers.

2. Suppliers.

4. HM Revenue & Customs.

you forgot speed cameras and scams. ( the niceic variety, not the nigerian solicitor wanting you to process £10,000,000 and share 50/50.