Neutrals at switches

[malcolmsanford]

Ahem yes you have

Now lets not tarnish the whole spectrum of sparky ages,these middle aged sparks may be more old school than us older ones

Who's old .......................

 

[andyb]

After reading all 16 pages and 158 posts I can now come up with a valid reason for not looping neutrals at the switch and even then its lame.

Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin .

Besides its down to the circumstance of the building and circuit to choose the best wiring method, not personal preference or that you've never done it before.

Extremely lame Paul,

I've never had the situation you describe, but I've had literally dozens of call outs over the years where a punter has taken a ceiling light down to fit a new one they have purchased (well it's only a couple of wires, what could go wrong?) only to be faced with several reds & blacks (brown & blues) and not knowing what to do.

The most common scenario is that they connect all the blacks together & reds together with me being called out after the resulting bang and one destroyed switch.

 

[Guest 004]

Another good reason not to loop the neutral at the switch, keeps the DIYers at bay

 

[chiplard]

Well not sure if I'm old school or not. I finished my 4 year apprenticeship in 1994. I must say, until reading this thread, I did not realise that neutrals to the switch was a common thing done now'adays. Tbh, I use the switch loop from the rose system and no neutrals in the switch. Having said that, when installing new supplies for wall lights or outside lights, then yes I will take a neutral to the switch, but normally only on these occasions.

I wouldn't say neutrals at the switch were bad practice, but for me (personal opinion) for a "standard" I keep to the old fashion method. I don't like the thought of running 3x T+E to each switch when 1x T+E can do the job. Someone mentioned adding to the circuit by cutting the feed to the switch and adding a JB, surely this is defeating the object?? The reason I like the old system is, less wires to the switch and easier to extend a circuit in the future.

A time and place for both I supoose?

Can't see how this defeats the object when i was talking about adding to the circuit at a later date, not doing it mid install.

 

[aptsys]

After reading all 16 pages and 158 posts I can now come up with a valid reason for not looping neutrals at the switch and even then its lame.

Identification of conductors. If a DIYer or an inexperienced spark came along, he may think the neutral is a strapper that has not been sleeved (and we all see that every week). Told you it was a bit thin .

I needed an excuse to try out my new labeller a couple of years ago...

 

[Lou7]

Not saying i've never done it, sometimes it can't be avoided, but I was taught that it was bad practice to bring neutrals to the switch. I think in the old days a lot more installations were wired in conduit, even domestic, therefore neutral to switches very rarely needed, maybe for a neon, then you just carried the same principle to 3 plate wiring with t+e.

**2 plate wiring has no neutral at switches as it is for conduit systems only **.

 

[UNG]

Has nobody ever wired switches with locating neon's it's very handy to have a looped neutral at the switch then. On a few of the industrial sites I worked on many years ago (late 70's early 80's) fitting locating neon's was standard practice so looping neutrals at the switch ain't that new or was it bad practice to fit things at the switch position that needed a neutral

I just can't understand some of the views posted in this thread. I am one of those that served an apprenticeship in the mid 70's if I hadn't moved on from what I learnt then I would still be using steel trunking and conduit and MICC instead of PVC trunking and conduit and FP cable.

Since I started in this trade / profession I have never stopped learning and probably never will the dinosaurs didn't adapt and look what happened to them. Yes I can be a bit picky over the way things are done / installed on site but that is more to produce a neat job than get pedantic over where a live or neutral is going to be jointed

There's more to the job than picking fault with other sparks methods or training. What annoys me is unnecessary connectors at switches because the sparks that wired it can't understand the different permutations of connecting two way switches and two way and intermediate switches but that is probably another thread

 

[aptsys]

Has nobody ever wired switches with locating neon's it's very handy to have a looped neutral at the switch then. On a few of the industrial sites I worked on many years ago (late 70's early 80's) fitting locating neon's was standard practice so looping neutrals at the switch ain't that new or was it bad practice to fit things at the switch position that needed a neutral

The locating neons are normally wired across the switch (L/SL)unless you're talking about something else?

 

[Lou7]

Has nobody ever wired switches with locating neon's it's very handy to have a looped neutral at the switch then. On a few of the industrial sites I worked on many years ago (late 70's early 80's) fitting locating neon's was standard practice so looping neutrals at the switch ain't that new or was it bad practice to fit things at the switch position that needed a neutral

you are right, but, you took the neutral there to be used, not just tucked inthe back of the box.

One of the other posts mentioned about having 7 cables at a bathroom light, I got the job to 2nd fix a flat with 7 cables at a bathroom switch, with a 25mm deep box !!

 

[UNG]

The locating neons are normally wired across the switch (L/SL)unless you're talking about something else?

It don't work like that when you are using discharge lighting

 

[UNG]

One of the other posts mentioned about having 7 cables at a bathroom light, I got the job to 2nd fix a flat with 7 cables at a bathroom switch, with a 25mm deep box !!

Now this is what I class as bad practice because no thought has been put into the installation and connecting up is going to be somebody else's problem

 

[aptsys]

It don't work like that when you are using discharge lighting

If there's a PFC capacitor in the fitting then it works fine, but yes I can see why you might feed these between L and N

 

[davelerave]

i remember asking my 'inspector' about this wiring method years back -he said to me no electrician 'worth his salt would do it that way'


he retired and a new man came in-he advised me to loop t+e to switches on dom work

simplifies connecting and replacing light fittings-no disadvantages that i'm aware of except more work and cable

might have to reconsider on some jobs now with price of cable

use the same wiring method throughout installation anyhow

 

[Engineer54]

I see this thread is still going on...lol!!! Anyone that is in any doubt that this method is bad practice only has to look at the picture someone posted on this thread, showing a 1 gang switch box being used as a joint box!!! Now imagine that box being used as a 2 or 3 gang switch point!!!! I wonder how many actually install 47mm back boxes when wiring in this method, ...not many i bet!!!

Complete circuits that has all it's wiring looped thru the switch boxes, has always been and still is bad practice in my book. If you Need a neutral at a switch box for a specific task such as EM lighting control, outside lighting point etc ...Fine, i have no problem with that at all. This crap about ending up with 7 cables at a ceiling point , just shows me that incompetence of designing circuits is at work. With all these modern accessories available these days, such as wago's and wago boxes, negates any need to turn switch boxes into joint boxes. One thing i'm dam sure of, and that is you'll not see complete circuits wired in this fashion on any specified prestige project in the UK.

I don't care a jot what you may think of my views on this matter, if being old school or whatever else you want to call it isn't to your liking, sorry ...but i'm not going to change my views based on what i've been reading on this thread, and i don't think for a second i'm going to change the views of those that think this wiring method is acceptable either.... lol!!!

 

[RWJ]

RIGHT..... Want to get the bottom of this.... I'm fence sitting (RWJ = Coward)

I've set up a Poll (on a separate thread as you can't add on once a threads going).

PLEASE continue the debate here..... but feel free to cast your vote on the separate thread.

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...rical-forum/33489-poll-neutrals-switches.html

 

[pushrod]

Well wasted more than an hour of my life on this when i could have been doing something useful lol -
remember a couple of people saying not seen this before - here's a diagram for them or anyone else

Personally don't have a problem with either method as long as it is done properly with adequate space and connections, unfortunately not the case in many instances on both methods.

 

[RWJ]

Well wasted more than an hour of my life on this when i could have been doing something useful lol -
remember a couple of people saying not seen this before - here's a diagram for them or anyone else

Personally don't have a problem with either method as long as it is done properly with adequate space and connections, unfortunately not the case in many instances on both methods.

Lovely that Pushrod......

Warning hotlinking is theft!!!! Slap your wrist!!!!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I see this thread is still going on...lol!!! Anyone that is in any doubt that this method is bad practice only has to look at the picture someone posted on this thread, showing a 1 gang switch box being used as a joint box!!! Now imagine that box being used as a 2 or 3 gang switch point!!!! I wonder how many actually install 47mm back boxes when wiring in this method, ...not many i bet!!!

Complete circuits that has all it's wiring looped thru the switch boxes, has always been and still is bad practice in my book. If you Need a neutral at a switch box for a specific task such as EM lighting control, outside lighting point etc ...Fine, i have no problem with that at all. This crap about ending up with 7 cables at a ceiling point , just shows me that incompetence of designing circuits is at work. With all these modern accessories available these days, such as wago's and wago boxes, negates any need to turn switch boxes into joint boxes. One thing i'm dam sure of, and that is you'll not see complete circuits wired in this fashion on any specified prestige project in the UK.

I don't care a jot what you may think of my views on this matter, if being old school or whatever else you want to call it isn't to your liking, sorry ...but i'm not going to change my views based on what i've been reading on this thread, and i don't think for a second i'm going to change the views of those that think this wiring method is acceptable either.... lol!!!

Still unable to spot any viable reason here to explain why it is bad practice.......any wiring method is bad practice if poorly carried out.

Why cant the against lobby come up with anything better than "it's bad practice"??

As already stated here by myself and others it may in many circumstances improve the safety and practicality of connecting wiring to modern luminaires
How can that be bad practice if the installer provdes a switch box capable of taking the number of wires and ensures the neutrals are properly terminated??...in many cases more properly terminated than at many of the poorly designed luminaires we areexpected to install.

 

[Hawk81]

I see this thread is still going on...lol!!! Anyone that is in any doubt that this method is bad practice only has to look at the picture someone posted on this thread, showing a 1 gang switch box being used as a joint box!!! Now imagine that box being used as a 2 or 3 gang switch point!!!! I wonder how many actually install 47mm back boxes when wiring in this method, ...not many i bet!!!

Complete circuits that has all it's wiring looped thru the switch boxes, has always been and still is bad practice in my book. If you Need a neutral at a switch box for a specific task such as EM lighting control, outside lighting point etc ...Fine, i have no problem with that at all. This crap about ending up with 7 cables at a ceiling point , just shows me that incompetence of designing circuits is at work. With all these modern accessories available these days, such as wago's and wago boxes, negates any need to turn switch boxes into joint boxes. One thing i'm dam sure of, and that is you'll not see complete circuits wired in this fashion on any specified prestige project in the UK.

I don't care a jot what you may think of my views on this matter, if being old school or whatever else you want to call it isn't to your liking, sorry ...but i'm not going to change my views based on what i've been reading on this thread, and i don't think for a second i'm going to change the views of those that think this wiring method is acceptable either.... lol!!!

Surely you can see that pic of the switch was down to poor design as is the idea of 7 cables at a light, therefore that is not a reason to rubish this method. As with many other threads you know best and you can not take anyone elses views on board. You have yet to give a valid reason why you think it is bad practice.

 

[Adam W]

If the installation is designed using plastic switches and an earthing terminal hasn't been provided on either the backbox or switchplate does that mean an earth shouldn't be taken to the switch at all? If manufacturers aren't providing us with earth terminals anymore maybe they're telling us they want us to revert to the old style method of not taking earths to switches.